S&S payment

Fizzical

There's a thread in Educationposts claiming that payroll has said new beneficiaries are not being paid for yard supervision done from Mar to June and never in the future, at both primary and secondary level.

Does anyone here know anything of this?

doc_17

If that is true then those people shoulp refuse to do it if it wasn't written into their contracts.

Geologyrocks

All allowances are suspended, for people who have never received the allowance before Feb 2012, pending the review of public sector allowances by Brendan Howlin. S & S is considered an allowance. It was specifically mentioned in that circular the department published. Here is the link:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0003_2012.pdf
Presumably, if they decide to keep the allowance after the review, the payment will be backdated.

rainbowtrout

I don't see how S&S can be considered an allowance. It's basically a form of overtime, extra pay for extra work. I can't see how any new entrant would agree to do S&S this coming September if they are not going to get paid for it if other people on staff are.

Fizzical

Geologyrocks wrote: »

All allowances are suspended, for people who have never received the allowance before Feb 2012, pending the review of public sector allowances by Brendan Howlin. S & S is considered an allowance. It was specifically mentioned in that circular the department published. Here is the link:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0003_2012.pdf
Presumably, if they decide to keep the allowance after the review, the payment will be backdated.

Thanks. I didn't realise it was included with allowances for the purpose of the review. I wonder if people now refuse to do it without pay would that be considered leaving the scheme and hence losing its pensionability?

Geologyrocks

I don't really know how it will work Fizzical but I really don't understand how the government can expect NQTs to do free supervision when others are getting paid for it. I think the NQT's need to go to the union and try get the union to tell principals that NQTs won't be doing this work and that they should not be asked to do it.
I agree Rainbowtrout, for it to be considered an allowance is just stupid as it is extra work.
There was an article in the times a couple of weeks back where Howlin mentioned the review and he did say something along the lines of allowances that represent additional work/value for the company are the ones they would keep, so I wouldn't lose hope just yet that it will be gone for new entrants completely.
I really wish they would hurry up with this review. It was supposed to be done months ago.

bdoo

II'll be gone from it anyway if it is stopped. The pensionability is calculated on final salary so unless you are doing it in your final year it won't count for pension purposes.

rainbowtrout

bdoo wrote: »

II'll be gone from it anyway if it is stopped. The pensionability is calculated on final salary so unless you are doing it in your final year it won't count for pension purposes.

This. I bailed out two years ago and the whole 'what about your pension ?' was levelled at me by one or two people.

If I'm depending on the pension eligibility of approximately €1000 30 years from now to keep me going financially then I have far bigger problems. I can't imagine S&S will be around in its current form 30 years from now and when I realised that giving it up was such a non
issue.


With regard to it being pensionable and leaving the scheme. The only people not getting paid are NQTs from this year. I can't imagine why any of them would be worried about leaving a scheme that does not pay as there is no pension from no pay

doc_17

NQTs should not be doing this if they are not getting paid for it. Go to your union about it.

mockingjay

Geologyrocks wrote: »

All allowances are suspended, for people who have never received the allowance before Feb 2012, pending the review of public sector allowances by Brendan Howlin. S & S is considered an allowance. It was specifically mentioned in that circular the department published. Here is the link:
http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0003_2012.pdf
Presumably, if they decide to keep the allowance after the review, the payment will be backdated.

When you say this do you specifically mean the S&S allowance, I get the degree & dip allowance as i qualified and had some supervision before the deadline but last year was my first full year working. I didn't start until October and wasn't involved in S&S but the VP asked me would I be interested this year, I certainly won't consider it at all on a voluntary basis as I do other extra-curricular stuff. Does anyone have any updates?

TheDriver

it is going to be interesting as we get a budget to do it but can;t employ anyone new into this scheme. With people who retire and naturally leave the school, theres less people to do it who we can pay and money there to do it. Ridiculous

rose23

I covered a maternity leave last year so I dont think I got any allowances, didnt do the S&S either. I received a sign up form for S&S with my timetable the other day from my new school. Clearly I dont want to do it if I dont get paid for it. How will I get clarification on this before next week?

flatbackfour

rose23 wrote: »

I covered a maternity leave last year so I dont think I got any allowances, didnt do the S&S either. I received a sign up form for S&S with my timetable the other day from my new school. Clearly I dont want to do it if I dont get paid for it. How will I get clarification on this before next week?

What is the union position on this? I would try to find that out. Find the name of the local TUI-ASTI union county rep and give them a call maybe??

In any event I would hold off on signing that form yet, and not look for any clarification from the school management yet. Try to have your own ducks lined up in your own head before approaching them, if you know what i mean.

doc_17

If you are not getting paid for it then do not do it. Contact your Union

bdoo

doc_17 wrote: »

If you are not getting paid for it then do not do it. Contact your Union

The allowances thing is a mess. You will be told that you will be paid by you'd principal who will hope that it will be sorted ny Feb for the first tranche whether they will ne allowed to pay it from their allocation us another matter.

I have my timetable for next year, well this year I suppose now, anyway, got hours reduced to 18:30 For my new a post- still no money though!

This one will be awkward.

The while thing is a disgrace really, it has been six months or more since the review was announced and no progress at all to date.

solerina

I totally agree with rainbowtrout, it is not an allowance....you get extra pay for extra work !!

Fizzical

bdoo wrote: »

The allowances thing is a mess. You will be told that you will be paid by you'd principal who will hope that it will be sorted ny Feb for the first tranche whether they will ne allowed to pay it from their allocation us another matter.

I have my timetable for next year, well this year I suppose now, anyway, got hours reduced to 18:30 For my new a post- still no money though!

This one will be awkward.

The while thing is a disgrace really, it has been six months or more since the review was announced and no progress at all to date.

Lucky you to have your hours reduced for your new post. What sector do you work in, bdoo?

Post allowances should be safe in the review. Govt are anxious to recompense management for fear of trouble. But S&S? I think it may be subsumed into new contracts as part of normal working conditions.

Geologyrocks

mockingjay wrote: »

When you say this do you specifically mean the S&S allowance, I get the degree & dip allowance as i qualified and had some supervision before the deadline but last year was my first full year working. I didn't start until October and wasn't involved in S&S but the VP asked me would I be interested this year, I certainly won't consider it at all on a voluntary basis as I do other extra-curricular stuff. Does anyone have any updates?

No it's not specifically the S & S. Any public servant that was not in receipt of an allowance/never before received the allowance prior to Feb 2012 will not get it until after the review (or never, depending on the outcome of the review).
So this years NQT's will never have been in receipt on the academic allowances, they won't get them. If you were never in the S & S scheme, you won't be paid for it.
The Dail are on their summer break. They don't resume until 18th Sep so I doubt that there will be any news until the end Sep at the earliest. This whole review has been completely mismanaged with the government unable to set themselves realistic deadlines.
If you look on Kildarestreet.ie you can see questions posed to the Howlin and Quinn about the issue over the past 6 months.

bdoo

Fizzical wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

The allowances thing is a mess. You will be told that you will be paid by you'd principal who will hope that it will be sorted ny Feb for the first tranche whether they will ne allowed to pay it from their allocation us another matter.

I have my timetable for next year, well this year I suppose now, anyway, got hours reduced to 18:30 For my new a post- still no money though!

This one will be awkward.

The while thing is a disgrace really, it has been six months or more since the review was announced and no progress at all to date.

Lucky you to have your hours reduced for your new post. What sector do you work in, bdoo?

Post allowances should be safe in the review. Govt are anxious to recompense management for fear of trouble. But S&S? I think it may be subsumed into new contracts as part of normal working conditions.

VEC

doc_17

Do teachers in secondary schools or community schools get time off in addition to extra pay for holding an A Post?

We are down to 1 B Post holder now following recent retirements!

bdoo

I don't think so doc. I can vaguely remember a secondary colleague moaning that they didn't, but she'd be prone to moaning anyway so I'm not 100%

seavill

In schools I have been in, within the VEC sector they definitely do for A posts not sure about B posts.
Secondary sector no time off and a very touchy subject as a result

bdoo

No not for B posts definitely! In the region of 18 hours for A post

seavill

Yea it was 18 hours timetable for A post holders in two separate VECs

bdoo

doc_17 wrote: »

Do teachers in secondary schools or community schools get time off in addition to extra pay for holding an A Post?

We are down to 1 B Post holder now following recent retirements!

We are down to 3 B Posts now but have 4 A posts and a Programme co-ordinator which is at A Post level due to numbers in programmes.

It's ridiculous, if you promote a Special Duties Teacher to Assistant Principal you don't actually gain a post. The teacher gets more work and more pay but their B Post is not filled. Crazy stuff - ill thought out. I think the B Post is with O'Leary in the grave.

Millem

doc_17 wrote: »

Do teachers in secondary schools or community schools get time off in addition to extra pay for holding an A Post?

We are down to 1 B Post holder now following recent retirements!

Yes 4 hours off for A posts, sometimes they can have it handy like "the project envelope post" which only happens a couple of times a year! But the ty co-ordinator posts requires WAY more than 4 hours! I presume they will want someone to do the B post for free in your school now

spurious

Millem wrote: »

Yes 4 hours off for A posts, sometimes they can have it handy like "the project envelope post" which only happens a couple of times a year! But the ty co-ordinator posts requires WAY more than 4 hours! I presume they will want someone to do the B post for free in your school now

In fairness, you would have to be in a huge school with very many APs to get such a trivial post.
Most schools have APs doing multiple jobs, or the jobs of what might have been 3 APs ten years ago. It is certainly a lot more work than 4 hours' worth.

bdoo

spurious wrote: »

In fairness, you would have to be in a huge school with very many APs to get such a trivial post.
Most schools have APs doing multiple jobs, or the jobs of what might have been 3 APs ten years ago. It is certainly a lot more work than 4 hours' worth.

I'm Year head for 110 kids PLUS ICT PLUS PLUS PLUS and you're never off the hook for evening things etc. The day of the handy post is gone - all of our a post holders are loaded up.

I think the perception of these easy posts started in the Secondary sector where the congregations traditionally did all of the work and the work left for the teachers was minimal but this has changed dramatically.

Millem

spurious wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

Yes 4 hours off for A posts, sometimes they can have it handy like "the project envelope post" which only happens a couple of times a year! But the ty co-ordinator posts requires WAY more than 4 hours! I presume they will want someone to do the B post for free in your school now

In fairness, you would have to be in a huge school with very many APs to get such a trivial post.
Most schools have APs doing multiple jobs, or the jobs of what might have been 3 APs ten years ago. It is certainly a lot more work than 4 hours' worth.

I am sorry but the "envelope post" does not require for hours off each week for a whole year! The envelopes are just handed to the relevant teachers (which I am one off) and are handed back to the post holder who then puts them in the post! A year head or the ty co-ordinator in my school have WAY more work than "envelope post". Another handy post in my school is "looking after new staff" please we only had 2 hdips last year and no new teaching staff again this is a WAY easier A post! Maybe my school is in a league of its own on the post situation! And no extra work has been put on the two post holders in question, when the October returns post holder retired, the vice principal is now doing the job and trying to be vice principal at the same time!

bdoo

Without knowing what the 'Envelope Post' is exactly it seems like there is a serious issue with work load and balance.

We had a review of posts this year and in fairness good changes have been made. all of the a posts carry a similar amount of work and the b posts do likewise.

It does no good for posts to be unbalanced like you describe

Millem

bdoo wrote: »

Without knowing what the 'Envelope Post' is exactly it seems like there is a serious issue with work load and balance.

We had a review of posts this year and in fairness good changes have been made. all of the a posts carry a similar amount of work and the b posts do likewise.

It does no good for posts to be unbalanced like you describe

Ok the "envelope post" is being giving out those plastic envelopes for projects for state exams e.g. Home ec journals, lcvp projects etc. When I say give out I literally mean hand it to subject teacher who then will complete the paperwork
and do all the checking who in turn hands it back to post holder who seals it and puts it in post!! This person gets 4hours off the same as ty coordinator and year heads! It is a farce! There is a HUGE HUGE imbalance in my school! Another one is 3 times a year doing a timetable for Xmas tests, mocks and summer tests! I am
Sure it is a pain 3 times a year but please! They don't even need to do the teacher supervision timetable of the exams because that is a B post holders job! I can't see there being a shake up as the post holders with the handy posts will outright refuse to do anymore for their post. I almost forgot about the "special A post" where the post holder got 6 hours off per week (including the monetary allowance) to look after 12 children yes 12 Lca students! We have never had more than 20 doing Lca!

seavill

If there is a full school review of posts its not down to the individual teacher to refuse to do any extra bits the staff decide what needs to be done in posts. The work is divided out evenly among posts, obviously weighted heavier with A posts, and posts are re allocated then based on the new jobs.
Obviously posts should be given to the most suitable candidate each time but in some schools this does not always happen.

In my school the exams person your "envelope post" looked after organising all orals, practicals etc. Did the timetable for Christmas pres and summer. Did the whole envelope stuff but scrutinised the teachers doing it, was responsible for regular contact with students who have not signed off, not handed in work etc.

Also responsible for getting and organising the exam papers etc. for in school exams, and the supervision rosters for each of them also.

So basically all those jobs rolled into one post but in your school seems to be shared amongst several people.

Also secondary school so no 4 hours off for it either

Millem

seavill wrote: »

If there is a full school review of posts its not down to the individual teacher to refuse to do any extra bits the staff decide what needs to be done in posts. The work is divided out evenly among posts, obviously weighted heavier with A posts, and posts are re allocated then based on the new jobs.
Obviously posts should be given to the most suitable candidate each time but in some schools this does not always happen.

In my school the exams person your "envelope post" looked after organising all orals, practicals etc. Did the timetable for Christmas pres and summer. Did the whole envelope stuff but scrutinised the teachers doing it, was responsible for regular contact with students who have not signed off, not handed in work etc.

Also responsible for getting and organising the exam papers etc. for in school exams, and the supervision rosters for each of them also.

So basically all those jobs rolled into one post but in your school seems to be shared amongst several people.

Also secondary school so no 4 hours off for it either

Wow your exam person has to do loads! The individual teachers organise their own practicals and orals in my school. Tbh it's grand I see it as part of my job! We also have to chase after the children ourselves but in fairness the years are brill in this department! I actually do think the staff would refuse though, some of them point blank to teach certain classes
on their timetable or at certain times of the day! Don't ask me how they get away with it but it disappears off their timetable!

seavill

Millem wrote: »

Wow your exam person has to do loads! The individual teachers organise their own practicals and orals in my school. Tbh it's grand I see it as part of my job! We also have to chase after the children ourselves but in fairness the years are brill in this department! I actually do think the staff would refuse though, some of them point blank to teach certain classes
on their timetable or at certain times of the day! Don't ask me how they get away with it but it disappears off their timetable!

Shockingly bad management is the answer to that question.

Actually that person retired so will be interesting to see what happens

spurious

Millem wrote: »

I am sorry but the "envelope post" does not require for hours off each week for a whole year! The envelopes are just handed to the relevant teachers (which I am one off) and are handed back to the post holder who then puts them in the post! A year head or the ty co-ordinator in my school have WAY more work than "envelope post". Another handy post in my school is "looking after new staff" please we only had 2 hdips last year and no new teaching staff again this is a WAY easier A post! Maybe my school is in a league of its own on the post situation! And no extra work has been put on the two post holders in question, when the October returns post holder retired, the vice principal is now doing the job and trying to be vice principal at the same time!

Of what you have described only Year Head would be would be AP work in our school - even our TY co-ordinator is a B post.
Looking after new teachers is everyone's job. The 'envelope post' would be the Exam Secretary's work and they are outside the post system.

Is your school voluntary secondary or VEC?

doc_17

Some very dodgey sounding stuff going on for posts it would seem in some of these schools! I'm the ICT coordinator in my school. No post for that!

It sounds as well that some schools don't have exam secretaries?

Our 1 B post holder runs the library. Which nobody uses because she doesn't really promite it. Waste of a post.

bdoo

When we reviewed our posts we got a list of all existing duties and a list of proposed possible duties, basically we worked in groups and ranked the importance of duties year head at the top etc.

then we looked at what duties were appropriate for a and b posts. year head = a post etc.

The new duties were then divvied out and i think that the balance is fair at present