The court system in Ireland

funnyname

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0801/uk-shop-worker-admits-l1m-lottery-con.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0801/hans-rausing-pleads-guilty-over-wifes-body.html

After reading these two stories today I was a bit surprised how quickly they ended up being dealt by the courts.

Do they get thing done faster in the UK than here in Ireland?

My perception of things here is

Crime committed

Criminal caught, questioned, bailed/remanded, case put together by dpp, court date to set the date of the trial, accused bailed/remanded, court case heard, if guilty sentence decided at another court date.

Generally and again this is my own perception of things here but the above usually takes 2 years.

Why are we so slow here?

coylemj

The Lottery case came before a magistrates court and he pleaded guilty so that's why that case was dealt with as speedily as it was. A similar case in Ireland would probably have been dealt with in the same timeframe.

The Rausing case was held in a Crown Court which is their equivalent of our Circuit Criminal court. I can't see that a similar case would have been heard as quickly as that over here i.e. in a matter of weeks but as he was on remand in custody, it would have been held much faster than if he was out on bail.

Procrastastudy

I have no idea if they are actually faster in England or the UK. I say England or the UK because Scotland has a different legal system. Not different as in Ireland v England different - three verdicts different. In England minor cases are dealt with by a magistrate rather than a judge. I forget if these guys are paid or volunteers but the system is somewhat less formal than the Irish constitution demands. I think there is probably a history lesson there.

Beyond that I would have to apply my common sense and say that, at a guess, the economies of scale kick in when dealing with a country of 60 million people v 4 million.

Beyond that you'll have to wait for a more informed opinion.

It might be worth looking at Civil Law jurisdictions to see if they are faster - they are significantly different in setup with Judges taking a much more active role (I believe).

coylemj

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Beyond that I would have to apply my common sense and say that, at a guess, the economies of scale kick in when dealing with a country of 60 million people v 4 million.

Economies of scale have nothing to do with the administration of justice. If they have 15 times more people than us, then assuming the same crime rates, they probably have 15 times more courts and judges than we do so the mechanics of the administration of justice would be exactly the same in both countries i.e. you'd have the same ratio of courts and judges to people.

Procrastastudy

Well they have run shifts in the England too...

Holsten

It would go

Crime commiteed > Invesgation Starts > Caught and arrested for the purpose of investigation > Charged > Brought to District Court > Bailed/Remanded > File sent to DPP > Perhaps upgraded to Circuit Court > Mention Dates > Arraginment > If pleading guilty > Sentence, if not guilty > Trial > Setnence.

2 years would be a good bet, could be longer/shorter depending on various things and the crime involved.

Procrastastudy

Holsten wrote: »

It would go

Crime commiteed > Invesgation Starts > Caught and arrested for the purpose of investigation > Charged > Brought to District Court > Bailed/Remanded > File sent to DPP > Perhaps upgraded to Circuit Court > Mention Dates > Arraginment > If pleading guilty > Sentence, if not guilty > Trial > Setnence.

2 years would be a good bet, could be longer/shorter depending on various things and the crime involved.

Thats only the case under legislation not the constitutional purpose of arrest.

I'm open to being spoon fed where my interpretation is likely flawed

valleyoftheunos

I'm totally open to correction on this but I've noticed a number of murder cases get to trial and sentencing within 12 months of the offence in the last few years which I think is a bit quicker than in the past.

HappyBalance2

Can anybody tell me why the LC Case took 4 years?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/students-who-sat-each-others-leaving-cert-paper-fined-200-3158358.html

Predalien

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

Can anybody tell me why the LC Case took 4 years?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/students-who-sat-each-others-leaving-cert-paper-fined-200-3158358.html

Hard to say but it was probably a reasonably long investigation with a bit of deliberation about whether they would be charged at all. Then they were in college so the defence might have sought a number of adjournments so as not to get in the way of their studies, doubtful the DPP were pushing for them to be locked up so they probably weren't too pushed about getting it to court quickly.

HappyBalance2

Predalien wrote: »

Hard to say but it was probably a reasonably long investigation with a bit of deliberation about whether they would be charged at all. Then they were in college so the defence might have sought a number of adjournments so as not to get in the way of their studies, doubtful the DPP were pushing for them to be locked up so they probably weren't too pushed about getting it to court quickly.

So would they have known they were getting charged? Were they told 4 years later by the guards?

Interested to know how the system works.

Predalien

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

So would they have known they were getting charged? Were they told 4 years later by the guards?

Interested to know how the system works.

Obviously they would have known about the investigation, then I assume a file was sent to the DPP, it might then take a reasonable length of time for the DPP to proceed with a prosecution, but no they weren't just told 4 years later by the Gardai. One of them was in college in the US so that would be a reason for adjourning matters (it was probably difficult to sort out questioning him too) for a bit, as I said I don't think the DPP would object too strenuously to adjournments since they weren't involved in serious/violent crime.

It's a long time but given it's not a common crime, and probably required a good deal of understanding/common sense in dealing with the offenders, I can see why it took longer than usual.

On the point the OP made I do consider the UK system to be a bit more efficient, but sometimes find the haste with which the magistrates courts operate a little worrying. It certainly seems that often alleged offenders are pressured into guilty pleas and brought before the courts quickly, when perhaps they have little time to grasp their rights or defences that may be available. It's a system that is sometimes very quick to criminalise people when perhaps long-term that might not do much good.

HappyBalance2

Predalien wrote: »

Obviously they would have known about the investigation, then I assume a file was sent to the DPP, it might then take a reasonable length of time for the DPP to proceed with a prosecution, but no they weren't just told 4 years later by the Gardai. One of them was in college in the US so that would be a reason for adjourning matters (it was probably difficult to sort out questioning him too) for a bit, as I said I don't think the DPP would object too strenuously to adjournments since they weren't involved in serious/violent crime.

It's a long time but given it's not a common crime, and probably required a good deal of understanding/common sense in dealing with the offenders, I can see why it took longer than usual.

On the point the OP made I do consider the UK system to be a bit more efficient, but sometimes find the haste with which the magistrates courts operate a little worrying. It certainly seems that often alleged offenders are pressured into guilty pleas and brought before the courts quickly, when perhaps they have little time to grasp their rights or defences that may be available. It's a system that is sometimes very quick to criminalise people when perhaps long-term that might not do much good.

But I thought they would only have 6 months to charge somebody?

Predalien

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

But I thought they would only have 6 months to charge somebody?

That 6 month time limit is for summary offences in the District Court (with some exceptions), they were on tried on indictment in the Circuit Court for which the limitation doesn't apply. You have to remember as well this crime was not detected immediately.

HappyBalance2

Predalien wrote: »

That 6 month time limit is for summary offences in the District Court (with some exceptions), they were on tried on indictment in the Circuit Court for which the limitation doesn't apply. You have to remember as well this crime was not detected immediately.

Is there anywhere you can get a list of summary offences?

Predalien

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

Is there anywhere you can get a list of summary offences?

Legislation relating to the offence will tell you whether it is a summary or a indictable offence, public order offences are good examples of summary offences, drug possession may be summary or on indictment depending on the particular circumstances of the offence. The same could be said for assault where there are essentially 3 types of assault, section 2, the least serious which can be tried summararily, section 3, assault causing harm, which can be summary or on indictment, and section 4, assault causing serious harm which is tried on indictment.

HappyBalance2

Predalien wrote: »

Legislation relating to the offence will tell you whether it is a summary or a indictable offence, public order offences are good examples of summary offences, drug possession may be summary or on indictment depending on the particular circumstances of the offence. The same could be said for assault where there are essentially 3 types of assault, section 2, the least serious which can be tried summararily, section 3, assault causing harm, which can be summary or on indictment, and section 4, assault causing serious harm which is tried on indictment.

Would be safe to say then that if you need a jury it is a indictable offence if not it is a summary offence?

valleyoftheunos

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

Would be safe to say then that if you need a jury it is a indictable offence if not it is a summary offence?

yes Indictable offences are tried by jury and summary offences without but as mentioned above some offences are "tryable each way", meaning they can be tried both summarily or on indictment. You simply have to learn which offences fall into this special category.

HappyBalance2

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

yes Indictable offences are tried by jury and summary offences without but as mentioned above some offences are "tryable each way", meaning they can be tried both summarily or on indictment. You simply have to learn which offences fall into this special category.

how do you know? which falls into which

HappyBalance2

A garda took my name and address for a relatively minor offence - this was about 18 months ago. Do you think that I got away with it or due to the massive backlogs they just haven't got around to it?

valleyoftheunos

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

how do you know? which falls into which

The statute setting out the offense will also set out whether it is summary, indictable or tryable both ways and if so tryable the criteria involved.

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

A garda took my name and address for a relatively minor offence - this was about 18 months ago. Do you think that I got away with it or due to the massive backlogs they just haven't got around to it?

I couldn't possibly say.

HappyBalance2

is there any way to find out? If it is a summary offence, do the gardai have to notify me within 6 months or just register the charges? ie should I know after 6 months?

Predalien

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

is there any way to find out?

I had a feeling it you weren't just interested in the system! Thought you might have been cheating in you leaving cert, maybe get in contact with the Garda station near where the incident occurred. Also maybe go to citizens advice or a FLAC if there's one near you and explain the nature of the possible offence and they might be able to help put your mind at ease.

ResearchWill

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

is there any way to find out? If it is a summary offence, do the gardai have to notify me within 6 months or just register the charges? ie should I know after 6 months?

Most minor offences are covered by the petty sessions act, the requirement is that a summons is requested within six months service can be after that time but any delay would of course be brought to the attention of the court.

HappyBalance2

ResearchWill wrote: »

Most minor offences are covered by the petty sessions act, the requirement is that a summons is requested within six months service can be after that time but any delay would of course be brought to the attention of the court.

So does that mean they would need to contact the person within 6 mths?

Solair

Speaking as a non-legal person, the time to get a case to court in Ireland does seem really long.

I wonder if there are any international studies on this?

It might make an interesting thesis.

ResearchWill

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

So does that mean they would need to contact the person within 6 mths?

No the summons must be requested to be issued within 6 months, there are no rules as to when it must be served. There is case law that seems to suggest 2 years and 4 months to trial is too long but other than that no set rules.

HappyBalance2

ResearchWill wrote: »

No the summons must be requested to be issued within 6 months, there are no rules as to when it must be served. There is case law that seems to suggest 2 years and 4 months to trial is too long but other than that no set rules.

So does the summons need to be issued to the person within 6 months?

ResearchWill

Solair wrote: »

Speaking as a non-legal person, the time to get a case to court in Ireland does seem really long.

I wonder if there are any international studies on this?

It might make an interesting thesis.

Can you link to evidence of this and where in international terms we come. Considering in commercial court which involves large commercial cases average waiting times from entry to list to disposal of the case 21 weeks.

ResearchWill

HappyBalance2 wrote: »

So does the summons need to be issued to the person within 6 months?

Again no, the Garda makes a request to the court in the past now a central processing unit, for a summons to be issued to that Garda. That request must be made within 6 months, then the Garda serves that summons usually it is very soon after but there can be valid reasons for delay. But as long as the request is made within six months then it satisfies the petty sessions act.

HappyBalance2

ResearchWill wrote: »

Again no, the Garda makes a request to the court in the past now a central processing unit, for a summons to be issued to that Garda. That request must be made within 6 months, then the Garda serves that summons usually it is very soon after but there can be valid reasons for delay. But as long as the request is made within six months then it satisfies the petty sessions act.

Ok. Well a garda took my name and address about 18 mths ago for a minor offence, do u think i should have got the summons by now?

Tom Young

Why not ring the Garda and (remind) ask?

Solair

ResearchWill wrote: »

Can you link to evidence of this and where in international terms we come. Considering in commercial court which involves large commercial cases average waiting times from entry to list to disposal of the case 21 weeks.

Eh, that's what I was saying - I'd like to see some international comparisons!
Anecdotally, the criminal legal system appears to move very slowly.

Generally speaking, that's the bit that a lot of the general public are concerned about i.e. people out on bail waiting long periods of time for trials and possibly re-offending before they get to court.