Coarse/Pike angling bye-laws

MacraPat

I'm just curious to hear peoples views on the coarse angling bye laws concerning Pike and coarse fish? It would seem it's lawful to take pike less than 50cm and no more than 4 coarse fish of less than 25cm. Americans, Canadians and (as we all know) Europeans seem to value pike, perch, carp and similar coarse fisheries as food resources. With restocking and stock evaluations rather regularly occurring in some cases. It could be argued these bye-laws afford better protection to coarse fish than to brown trout.

Are the bye-laws in place sufficient to protect fish stocks?
Are the bye-laws enforced enough?
What would you think if you saw someone bagging up a jack pike or 4 perch for the pot?

jkchambers

I used to enjoy eating a perch of half a pound or so but havent since the bye laws came in back in 2006.
I dont have a problem with someone taking a modest fish for the table but I do have a big issue with the problem we currently have where some illegally go to catch lots of pike and coarse fish to sell to others or stock up their freezers.
Inland Fisheries Ireland set up a Pike Policy Review Group last year. This group completed their review a few months ago and it has gone before the Board of IFI, the Minister and the National Inland Fisheries Forum. The report is not officially in the public domain yet but the contents are pretty widely known. The group recommend a little tweeking with the 50 cms bye law.
A Trout Policy Review and a Bass Policy Review were carried out at the same time and their status is the same.
I believe that a Coarse Fish Policy Review Group is soon to be set up. This will review the current 4 fish bye law among a host of other issues.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

MacraPat wrote: »

I'm just curious to hear peoples views on the coarse angling bye laws concerning Pike and coarse fish? It would seem it's lawful to take pike less than 50cm and no more than 4 coarse fish of less than 25cm. Americans, Canadians and (as we all know) Europeans seem to value pike, perch, carp and similar coarse fisheries as food resources. With restocking and stock evaluations rather regularly occurring in some cases. It could be argued these bye-laws afford better protection to coarse fish than to brown trout.

not exactly true. There are many trout fisheries in the country that are not under the control of the IFI. In these fisheries, a smaller bag limit may apply. The IFI values trout, sea trout and salmon a lot more than coarse fish and pike. The stupid act of culling pike in trout lakes which used to happen is a prime example.

MacraPat wrote: »

Are the bye-laws in place sufficient to protect fish stocks?

The big issue with any fishing regulations in Ireland is that only a small percentage of the population are aware there are any regualtions! a few weeks ago one my mates told me that he has 2 brown trout in his freezer, which he caught on the river clare in galawy. some stretches of that river are controlled by IFI so a permit is required, and some are controlled by local clubs, so club membership is required to fish those areas. He has neither. also, Im pretty sure the trout are below the 13 inch size limit. Also, I have seen so many people use live bait for pike over the last few years, not knowing its illegal.

MacraPat wrote: »

Are the bye-laws enforced enough?

Here lies the biggest problem in Irish angling. The laws are not being enforced enough, because there are not enough people to enforce them.

Bizzum

jkchambers wrote: »

The group recommend a little tweeking with the 50 cms bye law.

50 cm to 75cm by any chance?

jkchambers

Bizzum wrote: »

50 cm to 75cm by any chance?

No. National 50cms to remain but ..........
I was on both the Pike and Trout Review Groups so it wouldnt be right for me to give much detail until its officially in public domain. That said I believe both reports were discussed in detail at a meeting of the Corrib Federation. They have also been discussed at the National Executives of IFPAC, NARA and TAFI and the National Inland Fisheries Forum. In view of this I really dont know why IFI still insist that they are not yet officially released.

gary29428

Frank, culling is still going on, there was an extensive culling program in operation on Lough Corrib over the spring this year. God knows how many tonnes of pike we removed and killed....

jkchambers

gary29428 wrote: »

Frank, culling is still going on, there was an extensive culling program in operation on Lough Corrib over the spring this year. God knows how many tonnes of pike we removed and killed....

The pike netting and killing goes on each year on Corrib and a few other lakes. Earlier this year a major stock assessment programme was also carried out over a few weeks. This involved all sizes of gill nets. Trout that were still in good condition were measured, some scales taken and returned. Pike and coarse fish were killed and removed though healthy pike over 90 cms were also returned. One surprise was the large number of quality roach/bream hybrids that showed up. I posted snaps on some other sites. We are going a bit off topic here.

gary29428

Apologies for going off-topic but I think it's important that people are aware that the gill netting is still an ongoing measure of pike control on the western lakes. Adult pike numbers have seen a huge decline in the 2012 survey on Corrib.

jkchambers

gary29428 wrote: »

Apologies for going off-topic but I think it's important that people are aware that the gill netting is still an ongoing measure of pike control on the western lakes. Adult pike numbers have seen a huge decline in the 2012 survey on Corrib.

So have trout which is rather strange

Zzippy

Not if you were to ask anglers - best mayfly season in years, lots of trout about, and lots of small trout too, contrary to what the survey found.

I know a few guides on Corrib who bring over German, French, Dutch and Swiss anglers for pike fishing - their numbers have declined a lot since the 50cm limit was introduced. Why should pike be given greater protection than trout? Why should anglers not be allowed to take a pike of table size, say up to 75cm? Hopefully this change is in the review...

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

Not if you were to ask anglers - best mayfly season in years, lots of trout about, and lots of small trout too, contrary to what the survey found.

I know a few guides on Corrib who bring over German, French, Dutch and Swiss anglers for pike fishing - their numbers have declined a lot since the 50cm limit was introduced. Why should pike be given greater protection than trout? Why should anglers not be allowed to take a pike of table size, say up to 75cm? Hopefully this change is in the review...

Results of the survey do seem strange. I have also heard that there are lots of juvenile trout around.
The simple reason that pike and coarse fish are better protected than trout is that their representative bodies sought and obtained protection.
The Polish guides on Corrib are doing good business bringing in catch and release anglers.
Zzippy, I note that you are from Galway. If you were at the Corrib federation meeting you will know of some changes in pike bye law which may concern Corrib.

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

Results of the survey do seem strange. I have also heard that there are lots of juvenile trout around.
The simple reason that pike and coarse fish are better protected than trout is that their representative bodies sought and obtained protection.
The Polish guides on Corrib are doing good business bringing in catch and release anglers.
Zzippy, I note that you are from Galway. If you were at the Corrib federation meeting you will know of some changes in pike bye law which may concern Corrib.

I wasn't at the meeting. Any chance you could PM me the proposed change?
Its not just the Polish lads, I know several other guides who have lost business because their clients couldn't take a pike for dinner that evening.
I think the pike/coarse reps went a bit too far with the bye-laws the last time - certainly there were problems with over-exploitation, and a catch limit is certainly necessary, but size limits were too small and have hampered tourism angling.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

jkchambers wrote: »

The Polish guides on Corrib are doing good business bringing in catch and release anglers.

+1 Some amazing catches of pike and ferox. All returned, and even some recaptures.

I dont underatand why they keep culling the pike. Its an amazing pike water and they are shooting themselves in the foot. look at the trout reservoirs in the UK, in winter the are packed with pike anglers.

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

I wasn't at the meeting. Any chance you could PM me the proposed change?
Its not just the Polish lads, I know several other guides who have lost business because their clients couldn't take a pike for dinner that evening.
I think the pike/coarse reps went a bit too far with the bye-laws the last time - certainly there were problems with over-exploitation, and a catch limit is certainly necessary, but size limits were too small and have hampered tourism angling.

I dont think the 2006 coarse bye law would have much effect on visiting coarse anglers. The 2006 pike bye law may have put off some Germans and perhaps Swiss who have had a bad record in plundering our pike stocks.
PM sent

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

gary29428 wrote: »

Frank, culling is still going on, there was an extensive culling program in operation on Lough Corrib over the spring this year. God knows how many tonnes of pike we removed and killed....

True, as far as I remember, pike numbers were well down. This was discussed at the IADA confernece last march, I think I have some figures somewhere. I think they returned every pike above 75cm, its a start, but there is still a long way to go. I have never fished corrib, but its on my agenda for next year. hoping to get a days piking on it next may/june

jkchambers

Case Creamy Spat wrote: »

True, as far as I remember, pike numbers were well down. This was discussed at the IADA confernece last march, I think I have some figures somewhere. I think they returned every pike above 75cm, its a start, but there is still a long way to go. I have never fished corrib, but its on my agenda for next year. hoping to get a days piking on it next may/june

In recent years on Corrib IFI have been killing all pike up to 90 cms. Any pike over 90 cms that was healthy enough was returned. I have a full record of these larger returned pike including tag numbers and lenght. The pike and trout policy review groups recommend some changes here.
Frank, I was over your way weekend before last on Shiven and Suck upstream from Ballyforan. Water was still pulling a bit hard on the Suck. Didnt catch much.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

where the shiven enters the suck is my local stretch, I live less than a mile from there. the river floods very easily there, it can be a disaster! i havnt fished it at all since the may bank holiday weekend, and even then it was rising.

jkchambers

Case Creamy Spat wrote: »

where the shiven enters the suck is my local stretch, I live less than a mile from there. the river floods very easily there, it can be a disaster! i havnt fished it at all since the may bank holiday weekend, and even then it was rising.

I was fishing further upstream on the Shiven where levels were fine.

Super-Rush

It was a long hard fight to get those laws introduced to protect coarse fishing in this country. Personally i would have preferred a complete ban on the killing of course fish but the new law was a fair compromise. If i saw someone taking fish i wouldn't be happy about it, but if they are keeping within the new laws, its a start.

There seems to be less and less illegal coarse angling over the last two years so it does look like the new laws were effective and properly enforced.

jkchambers

Super-Rush wrote: »

It was a long hard fight to get those laws introduced to protect coarse fishing in this country. Personally i would have preferred a complete ban on the killing of course fish but the new law was a fair compromise. If i saw someone taking fish i wouldn't be happy about it, but if they are keeping within the new laws, its a start.

There seems to be less and less illegal coarse angling over the last two years so it does look like the new laws were effective and properly enforced.

That may be way in Carlow there there a couple of very active clubs but there is lots of illegal fishing and littering going on and especially in the Cavan/Monaghan.
I am a pike angler and I want to be able to use some roach or perch as bait. As I said before I dont have a problem with someone taking a modest fish for the table.
The big problem is the groups who go out and kill much more that the bye law allows and have barbi parties on the lakeshore where they leave all their rubbish and beer cans behind. This is causing more and more problems with landowners who are starting to block all anglers fishing from their land.

Super-Rush

jkchambers wrote: »

That may be way in Carlow there there a couple of very active clubs but there is lots of illegal fishing and littering going on and especially in the Cavan/Monaghan.
I am a pike angler and I want to be able to use some roach or perch as bait. As I said before I dont have a problem with someone taking a modest fish for the table.
The big problem is the groups who go out and kill much more that the bye law allows and have barbi parties on the lakeshore where they leave all their rubbish and beer cans behind. This is causing more and more problems with landowners who are starting to block all anglers fishing from their land.

Then the clubs up there should become more active.

Bizzum

jkchambers wrote: »

That may be way in Carlow there there a couple of very active clubs but there is lots of illegal fishing and littering going on and especially in the Cavan/Monaghan.
I am a pike angler and I want to be able to use some roach or perch as bait. As I said before I dont have a problem with someone taking a modest fish for the table.
The big problem is the groups who go out and kill much more that the bye law allows and have barbi parties on the lakeshore where they leave all their rubbish and beer cans behind. This is causing more and more problems with landowners who are starting to block all anglers fishing from their land.

A few points I would make here are:

-Littering is not accounted for in the Coarse/Pike angling Bye laws.

-The current Bye laws allow you to use some Roach/Perch as bait.

- If a "modest" fish is under 25cms, the Bye law allows you to take 4. If your definition of "modest" is a fish above this limit...........The fish goes back.

- I think we are in a far better position with the Bye laws than pre 06 when it was common enough to see bin liners full of dead coarse fish leaving lakeshores.

I recall in my travels meeting an angler in Sept 06, with four beauties of Tench, none under 4llb and up 6lb. He was heading home to cook them. He assured my they were delicious. I was sickened. I'd rather not return to pre 06!

On the issue of Pike it seems to me that there is a completly different attitude to them between the West and the East of this country.

jkchambers

Super-Rush wrote: »

Then the clubs up there should become more active.

Not as simple as that. In Carlow you really only have the Barrow and there are clubs along most of it. There are supposed to be 365 lakes and a few rivers in Cavan and not far off that in Monaghan and maybe 8 or 10 small coarse/pike clubs in each county. Carlow waters are much, much easier to keep an eye on than the vast amount of waters in Cavan and Monaghan

jkchambers

Bizzum wrote: »

A few points I would make here are:

-Littering is not accounted for in the Coarse/Pike angling Bye laws.

-The current Bye laws allow you to use some Roach/Perch as bait.

- If a "modest" fish is under 25cms, the Bye law allows you to take 4. If your definition of "modest" is a fish above this limit...........The fish goes back.

- I think we are in a far better position with the Bye laws than pre 06 when it was common enough to see bin liners full of dead coarse fish leaving lakeshores.

I recall in my travels meeting an angler in Sept 06, with four beauties of Tench, none under 4llb and up 6lb. He was heading home to cook them. He assured my they were delicious. I was sickened. I'd rather not return to pre 06!

On the issue of Pike it seems to me that there is a completly different attitude to them between the West and the East of this country.

While littering is not an issue for IFI as they are not charged with keeping banks clear of it on the Continent in some countries it is linked. I believe that in Holland when you purchase your angling card (licence) you basically undertake to observe fishing and countryside regulations. If you break the rules your card is revoked. On 3rd September the National Angling Federations are to meet IFI to discuss the future funding of the inland fisheries resource. Basically I have no doubt that we will be talking about a compulsory licence, permit, registration or whatever you want to call it. If this does come in perhaps we should look at the Dutch model.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

jkchambers wrote: »

While littering is not an issue for IFI as they are not charged with keeping banks clear of it on the Continent in some countries it is linked. I believe that in Holland when you purchase your angling card (licence) you basically undertake to observe fishing and countryside regulations. If you break the rules your card is revoked. On 3rd September the National Angling Federations are to meet IFI to discuss the future funding of the inland fisheries resource. Basically I have no doubt that we will be talking about a compulsory licence, permit, registration or whatever you want to call it. If this does come in perhaps we should look at the Dutch model.

will a system like be enforced? as it is IFI dont have enough people to enforce the current laws. laws and regulations are pointless unless they are enforced. 10 years ago, we had a drink driving culture in Ireland, that only stopped after a massive crack down by the guards over a number of years. Very few people drink and drive now, because there is a good chance they will be caught. I have never been asked to produce my permit on the suck system since it was introduced in 2003, because of this, nobody buys a permit. I know only 2 people with permits at the moment.

The Dutch system is a good one, but for it to work here, money needs to be spent to make people aware of the new regulations, and then enforce them.
In the UK, there are tv ads telling people they need a rod licence. We would need an something similar here for it to work.

jkchambers

Case Creamy Spat wrote: »

will a system like be enforced? as it is IFI dont have enough people to enforce the current laws. laws and regulations are pointless unless they are enforced. 10 years ago, we had a drink driving culture in Ireland, that only stopped after a massive crack down by the guards over a number of years. Very few people drink and drive now, because there is a good chance they will be caught. I have never been asked to produce my permit on the suck system since it was introduced in 2003, because of this, nobody buys a permit. I know only 2 people with permits at the moment.

The Dutch system is a good one, but for it to work here, money needs to be spent to make people aware of the new regulations, and then enforce them.
In the UK, there are tv ads telling people they need a rod licence. We would need an something similar here for it to work.

IFPAC would link any new licence/permit/registration with a complete overhaul of the waterkeeper system. We would like to see an IFI protection reserve force being established along the lines of the Garda Reserve. IFI would vet, train, appoint and supervise club "IFI Reserve " volunteers. I believe that IFI already have the power to do this under Section 31 of the 2010 Inland Fisheries Act. The Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC) have pointed this out several times to IFI top brass but they dont seem too keen. They even said that they had legal advice against doing this. I asked for a copy of the legal advice and I am still waiting. I dont think that there would be any shortage of volunteers. In the old Eastern Regional Fisheries Board region there were over 300 club waterkeepers. One of the major problems with the club waterkeeper (Section 294 waterkeepers) is that they are only appointed over their local waters. It is IFPAC`s view that if you are good enough to be a waterkeeper over one water you are good enough to be appointed over all waters.
If IFI were to make full use of Section 31 we could have hundreds of empowered anglers out there protecting our waters and enforcing fisheries laws.
Link
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0010/sec0031.html#sec31