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San Francisco 49ers Discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    I'm the opposite, we've seen over the last few years the limitations of having Jimmy as our QB, especially having to play at least 4 games against guys who can throw and be mobile. Kyle can scheme guys open, I hope we haven't given up that number of picks for someone who can't provide multiple threats.

    I think any of the likely 3 can succeed with the 49ers but one guy, Mac Jones, stands out as having a ceiling as only slightly higher than Jimmy. That's fine during a rookie contracts but then becomes a burden after that. Jones does a lot of what Kyle appears to covet but far from all, for example he has barely any experience with boot action and doesn't look athletically able to do it - forget about the mobility that most successful young QBs have.

    Overall I think what a lot of people think Kyle wants in a QB is down to who ended up with him as a coach, not who he picked. People make a lot of him wanting to draft Cousins but they also had Russel Wilson on their board but he went before. I do agree with your point, it'll be a long month waiting to find out

    When I say super mobile I mean like Kaep or Lamar Jackson(Kap 2.0) guys who like to go on long long runs. Mobile is absolutely the way to go, Mahomes, Russ, Allen etc guys who evade pressure but more often than not throw it then after extending plays & having coverage breaking down. Jimmy’s first 5 games were in that vain but since the acl not so much & he aint Brady in the pocket.

    A lot saying Lance will be the pick, but he’ll need a year behind Jimmy. Of course Kyles buddy Chris Simms says it should be Jones (Wilson gone already). Awful lot to give up on guys who are not a sure thing. Really hope they get this right.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    The problem with Jimmy is not that he's immobile, its that he is inconsistent and often (but not always) inaccurate and indecisive. He sometimes has a tendency to hang onto the ball too long and seems to have one head scratching stupid play per game.

    Under pressure he tends to be significantly poorer as well. He also struggles throwing outside the numbers.

    But all of that is forgivable if he can be accurate in the short/medium areas of the field and hit open receivers in stride. And he can do this sometimes but I think Shanahan wants someone who can hit open receivers a lot more reliably and preferably is able to throw it with more accuracy outside the numbers and deep down the field (to keep the defense honest) even if its not a huge part of the offense.

    As above, this is a franchise altering decision. Get this one right and they should be in the playoffs year in year out for the next 5 + years. Get it wrong and it sets us back for at least 3 years maybe more. Either way this trade defines the Shanahan era in San Francisco.

    I have no idea who the pick should be, need to do some research on the options but I will say that just because mock drafts all have Mac Jones as a late first/early 2nd pick, doesn't mean that NFL teams feel that way, but I do think it seems a bit of a stretch to move up to number 3 to get Mac Jones. They surely could have gone to 6 if Mac Jones was the target.


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    Another option could well be a future swap with the Jets giving them Fred Warner. Our top D guy who has not been extended yet. Depends how much they might want Wilson. Fun & games...with the next 3-5 years of the teams future on the line!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    adrian522 wrote: »
    The problem with Jimmy is not that he's immobile, its that he is inconsistent and often (but not always) inaccurate and indecisive. He sometimes has a tendency to hang onto the ball too long and seems to have one head scratching stupid play per game.

    Under pressure he tends to be significantly poorer as well. He also struggles throwing outside the numbers.

    But all of that is forgivable if he can be accurate in the short/medium areas of the field and hit open receivers in stride. And he can do this sometimes but I think Shanahan wants someone who can hit open receivers a lot more reliably and preferably is able to throw it with more accuracy outside the numbers and deep down the field (to keep the defense honest) even if its not a huge part of the offense.

    As above, this is a franchise altering decision. Get this one right and they should be in the playoffs year in year out for the next 5 + years. Get it wrong and it sets us back for at least 3 years maybe more. Either way this trade defines the Shanahan era in San Francisco.

    I have no idea who the pick should be, need to do some research on the options but I will say that just because mock drafts all have Mac Jones as a late first/early 2nd pick, doesn't mean that NFL teams feel that way, but I do think it seems a bit of a stretch to move up to number 3 to get Mac Jones. They surely could have gone to 6 if Mac Jones was the target.

    Jimmy isn't as immobile as some QBs out there but he isn't mobile either - if the pocket starts collapsing it is very rare that he would be making a play with his legs, forget about designed runs. I wasn't trying to make out that was his only or main flaw, there are others too, some that Mac Jones would be an improvement on, like a better arm - even if that is still wouldn't be at an elite level.

    Mock drafts haven't had Jones going that late for weeks, if not months at this stage. Consensus is that pick 15 is his floor, with some saying pick 8. Many of the media draft guys don't have him ranked that high on their personal boards though, I suspect that is due to where the game is going, what rookies have been successful recently, and being burnt by ranking recent pocket passers higher recently and them failing.

    Like Daniel Jones, it only takes one team to like a guy and he can go way earlier than what is expected. I think Mac Jones can be successful with the 49ers but I'd be raging if we gave up all those picks for him.

    Since the issues with their first draft, Kyle and Lynch have repeatedly said how important trusted insider information has been to them in making decisions. I'm sure folks will be digging for connections but I know there is some with Ohio State - Day being an ex-49ers assistant when Kelly was coach and their former DC being on Kyle's first staff. Though doubtful to change the decision either way, I'm hoping they're still annoyed about the bad info they received from Alabama on Foster and that has him off their board :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    The list has narrowed to the finalists, I'm not sure I'll be able to handle another month and a day or rumours.

    https://twitter.com/Thesfniners_/status/1375511329436405761?s=20


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  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    Kyle & John presser. Its QB anyway but they also laid it out to Jimmy that hes the guy until the new guy is ready to take over! Straight up honesty. He wasn’t pleased but will work with them & lead the team.

    There’s so many ways this could end up going but a nice one would have to be that Jimmy stays healthy does well & we end up with something like Montana & Young fighting it out! Or it could go Smith/Kap...ie: Jimmy gets injured & he doesn’t play for us again.

    Update - that presser is well worth watching. John doesn't go into too much on Dee Ford but I get the impression he'll be gone even though he's working to get healthy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    myate wrote: »
    Kyle & John presser. Its QB anyway but they also laid it out to Jimmy that hes the guy until the new guy is ready to take over! Straight up honesty. He wasn’t pleased but will work with them & lead the team.

    There’s so many ways this could end up going but a nice one would have to be that Jimmy stays healthy does well & we end up with something like Montana & Young fighting it out! Or it could go Smith/Kap...ie: Jimmy gets injured & he doesn’t play for us again.

    Update - that presser is well worth watching. John doesn't go into too much on Dee Ford but I get the impression he'll be gone even though he's working to get healthy.

    Presser was great - their usual honesty to a point and then vagueness.

    Don't see Ford going anywhere this year. He did the team a favour in restructuring his deal that freed up around $12 million of space this year. They save zero money even cutting him after June 1. Team might as well see if he recovers even if goes on IR for the season. Getting him back in 2021 or 2022 as a situational rusher would be fantastic (even if it never comes close to the cost of the deal to get him).


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We are in good shape. Jimy for this year and then a rookie contract man next year to free up cap space for other pieces. Not happy about losing the draft capital but if it nets a franchise QB then it will be a winner

    Lets get this season started


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    We are in good shape. Jimy for this year and then a rookie contract man next year to free up cap space for other pieces. Not happy about losing the draft capital but if it nets a franchise QB then it will be a winner

    Lets get this season started

    My preference is to stick with Jimmy but if someone wants to offer a 2nd or a conditional 2nd that can turn into a 1st for 2022 then I'd ship him on to recoup some of the capital we lost to move up. I trust Kyle to ease a QB in, especially one that is mobile.

    I don't think that market will be there for Jimmy prior to the season starting but if he can show he is healthy and plays well it should be there next offseason or even before the trade deadline, especially if a starter goes down for a contender.


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    Was hoping the Jets would surprise all & go with Sewel/Pitts. That's not happening now! Only 3 weeks to wait! Lots of reports/rumours/sources say...I still think it's all a smokescreen. This front office has been solid at not leaking at any point, don't see why they would now, especially when it's now arguably their most important draft pick ever.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    myate wrote: »
    Was hoping the Jets would surprise all & go with Sewel/Pitts. That's not happening now! Only 3 weeks to wait! Lots of reports/rumours/sources say...I still think it's all a smokescreen. This front office has been solid at not leaking at any point, don't see why they would now, especially when it's now arguably their most important draft pick ever.

    even without leaks the draft boards seem well known in advance by the analyists. Usually then theres the few shockers that we end up talking about


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    I might be just in the denial stage of grief.

    Mock drafters generally have a good idea of draft boards but this year they haven't had a clue what to do with Jones all year. They are hearing that the NFL is high on him but can't find a match for him. The 49ers were an easy out at 12 but when they moved up they were stuck so seemed to just roll with it up to the 3rd pick. Mock drafters have also generally struggled with the 49ers picks during the current regime:
    - Thomas was mocked a lot but the front office went to QB pro days to throw people off the scent so much that the Bears traded up
    - No one had them trying to move up for Foster
    - No one mentioned McGlinchey as an option until the morning of the draft - the front office purposefully didn't bring him in for a private workout to not tip their hand (we still had Trent Brown)
    - Bosa was an obvious pick if Kyler went off the board at 1 and yet the front office still went out of their way to imply they might go with Williams
    - Basically every mock had us taking one of the top WRs last year (Jeudy/Lamb/Ruggs) right up until again around draft day when one or two in the media started pushing DT.
    - No one connected us with Aiyuk at all. Chris Simms said afterwards that Shanahan told him about it but because of that he refused to mention it in the media - which is the opposite of what he is doing this year.

    On top of that, not a word came out about any of the big trades - Jimmy, Buckner, or the trade to 3 until they were done (similar with even the smaller deals). Reports are even Kyle didn't even tell his assistants of his preference when he asked them to assess the QBs in the draft, yet we're supposed to believe that within hours of the trade happening everyone in the media 'knows' what the pick will be.

    The media can't even put up an argument about why the pick even makes sense at 3 aside from the incredibly lazy comparisons between McCorkle and QBs that Shanahan inherited or picked up cheap and had decent success with. Very few elements of what Kyle even asks QBs to do even makes sense for him (I can go on a whole other rant about that). I believe currently it is either a smokescreen or media seeking clickbait after seeing the pushback from 49ers fans gave once the trade was made and links started to be made. They have to make their money up until draft time and this is a great way to do it.

    At this stage the vast majority of the fan base is so toxic towards that potential pick that I'm concerned that if they go that direction that unless they win a Super Bowl in the next 3 years it could be the end of Shanahan with the team (the last thing I want). Outside of his many limitations as a player, winning a ring will be made even tougher with Jones being under such incredible pressure, much more than the other options at 3 would be due to their higher ceilings that might take time to get to. I'm one of the fans that trusts Kyle more often than not and also sees Jones as being a very good player and I'll be ready to riot on draft night if he is picked at 3 after giving up those additional picks.

    I really wish they hadn't made the trade so far in advance of the draft. It was fun for the first few hours but I'm not sure I'll be able to take this nonsense for another 3 plus weeks...


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    3 weeks to go. The problem with pushing the draft so far out in April is now over analysing all players, QBs especially...and the media having nothing else to report on & its good for their clicks & business.
    On another position, here's one I'd like to see the team jump on - Giovani Bernard from the Bengals. Catches, runs, blocks...if ever there was a Kyle back, he's it. Put him with Mostert & Hasty and thats not a bad backfield. And Mostert isn't going to play all 17 games so we need depth back there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    Both Fields and Lance are now having second pro days prior to the draft and the 49ers will be attending. They probably won't make a huge change in their decision but if they chose to Kyle and the coaches could get the QBs to show certain things that they would have asked them to do if private work outs were possible this year.

    Seemed like the strong media claims on Jones have tapered off a bit as the week went on. Rapoport came out confirming that practically no one in the 49ers building knows who they are taking, in line with another story from earlier in the week.

    https://twitter.com/RichEisenShow/status/1380575506567888898?s=20


  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    I think they knew they were having 2nd pro days, thats why they went to Jones' one last week as opposed to Fields (both were same day)...as usual media creating stuff out of nothing with that. I agree they don't make much of a difference...film & interviews do it.
    I said it above, nobody in the Niners leaks these days...unless they want something out there (Jimmy for a 1st)! I'd say only Kyle & Lynch know. Anyway, nearly there, 2 1/2 weeks to go. Whenever somebody else moves up (going to happen sooner or later!) that'll take the Niners off the top of the news for a while.
    (Rich is going to eat some delivery guys sweaty jumper if the Niners dont take a QB!! I think he's safe though!)


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    Found this pretty interesting as well, Lombardi is pretty clued in.

    https://twitter.com/VSiNLive/status/1379847689815359491


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    Lombardi's logic there is questionable at best. Later in the clip he pats himself on the back about other people making the mistake getting draft intel by wanting to know 'what people people think' rather than 'how people think'. That approach fundamentally makes sense but his 'how people think' for Kyle seems incredibly flawed - tying him to QBs that were either at teams when Kyle arrived at teams or came in relatively cheap. It is even worse when he claims that is what 'the Shanahan's' like, when Mike's best success were with Elway and Young - neither of which you'd comp with Jones.

    That Schefter quote is a big walk back from what he said in the middle of last week where he would be 'shocked' if Jones wasn't the pick. Suddenly, now they have an 'open mind', 'that they like all three, and their decision might change during pro days (which is a very unlikely thing to happen if they mind was so made up that he implied earlier in the week). Since the 'shocked' comments it seems like he has heard something that contradicts what gave him such certainty previously - either the previous source came back and said they were wrong or he has heard something conflicting. You don't hear the same walkback about the Jags or Jets picks.

    Jones might be the pick but given the rationale that basically every media member claiming sources has given for the pick is along the same lines of Lombardi, it really feels like it is from other teams in the league that are guessing as much as the rest of us. Will be interesting if we hear more media members giving themselves wiggle room on this.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    I think the Shefter interview makes a lot of sense. I think Schefter is close to Mike Shanahan so I'd take what he says fairly seriously. It's unlikely he's just making stuff up. I believe that the 49ers are planning on drafting Mac Jones and I also believe that they are still open to changing their minds on that.

    Lombardi is always very good in terms of knowing what teams are doing and thinking. The most interesting point to me was when he said Jones was always considered by lots of teams to be QB3 in this draft. I found that interesting as the mock drafters were obviously way off in this regard.

    I don't see anyway they draft Trey Lance, he's just way too inaccurate. I'd hope they take Fields, but I'd rather Jones over Lance.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    If you have access to the Athletic I reccomend these overviews of the 4 QB prospects. Goes through strenths and weaknesses with videos to show examples of their play over their college caareers.

    Jones
    Fields
    Lance
    Wilson

    And just in case you are super optimistic:

    Lawrence


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    adrian522 wrote: »
    I think the Shefter interview makes a lot of sense. I think Schefter is close to Mike Shanahan so I'd take what he says fairly seriously. It's unlikely he's just making stuff up. I believe that the 49ers are planning on drafting Mac Jones and I also believe that they are still open to changing their minds on that.

    I take what he said seriously, which is why him walking back his comments from earlier in the week potentially says a lot. Sure his original close to certainty might have come from Mike, but it is just as likely that Mike gave him a friendly call afterwards to say 'I wouldn't tie yourself so closely to Jones'. If Mike suddenly started giving away Kyle's secrets, after not doing so for 3 years, I doubt Shefter would be becoming less confident as time passes.
    Lombardi is always very good in terms of knowing what teams are doing and thinking. The most interesting point to me was when he said Jones was always considered by lots of teams to be QB3 in this draft. I found that interesting as the mock drafters were obviously way off in this regard.

    His logic is so weak though, if he said Kyle likes x/y/z part of Jones' game or is worried about a/b/c of Field/Lance's he'd have me on board. Instead it is the extremely lazy narrative that I'm seeing from some old former front office people and some in the media tying Kyle to non-mobile white QBs because that is what his teams have had or gotten cheaply in the past. It even goes against what Kyle said repeatedly over the last few years of what he'd like in a QB and even what he said last week when he scoffed at a reporter saying Cousins was his prototype QB.

    It is like saying a guy who just won the lottery is going to buy a compact car because in the past when he was broke that is what he bought, despite having said in the past that compact cars aren't his preference. Now I can 100% see some GMs liking Mac at 3, however I'd like to see the number that would give up 3 first round picks and a day 2 pick for him. Casserly claimed to have done a poll of 23 teams and Jones was the least liked at 3.

    https://twitter.com/CharleyCasserly/status/1379968009389944837?s=20
    I don't see anyway they draft Trey Lance, he's just way too inaccurate. I'd hope they take Fields, but I'd rather Jones over Lance.

    Lance has been asked to do the most things that align to what Shanahan's scheme actually asks QBs to do - way more than Jones. His accuracy is a definite concern, people like to point to Josh Allen's improvement in that area but he is an outlier (just like non-mobile QBs being a success these days is an outlier and shouldn't be reached for). Despite that, I'd still pick him ahead of Jones, especially if they are being honest about keeping Jimmy for another year. People talk about his inexperience yet he has played the same number of games as Jones is 2 years younger than him. Jones had a perfect situation in college and made the most of it and he'd do similar in the NFL with the 49ers. At Jones' ceiling he is probably still the least intimidating QB in the division, that is a waste for 3 first round picks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    adrian522 wrote: »
    If you have access to the Athletic I reccomend these overviews of the 4 QB prospects. Goes through strenths and weaknesses with videos to show examples of their play over their college caareers.

    Jones
    Fields
    Lance
    Wilson

    And just in case you are super optimistic:

    Lawrence

    Thanks, I've been meaning to get the Athletic for a while so these seem like a great excuse.

    Elsewhere, I found this article one of the better ones regarding analysis of the QB options.

    https://twitter.com/BenjaminSolak/status/1379828511507156994?s=20


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    I've got a free 30 day pass if you want to do that before signing up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    adrian522 wrote: »
    I've got a free 30 day pass if you want to do that before signing up?

    Appreciate the offer but since my post I signed up for $1 a month for the first 6 months. That should get me through to the start of the season and I can decide if I want to continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    Looks like they are turning the second pro days into as close to private workouts as you can get this year, with the QBs agreeing to work out drills the team wants to see. Normal pro days rarely move the needle on decisions but private workouts certainly do (even though I do believe they were happy with 3 guys when they moved up and will claim X was always their guy in the post draft press conference). Presume this sort of power is exactly what they meant about the benefits of trading the pick so far in advance.

    https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1381667692772474883?s=20


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    Yeah, I'm pretty sure both of those workouts were setup specifically for the 49ers though of course other teams are free to attend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,861 ✭✭✭ Foxtrol


    adrian522 wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure both of those workouts were setup specifically for the 49ers though of course other teams are free to attend.

    Apparently the Patriots are the only others confirmed at this point for Fields. Interesting what the driver is of that - teams think he will be gone by the time they get a pick, teams just don't like him, or teams don't want to tip their hand. Current plan is to not televise it which is a shame for fans (though if it went really well again and they don't pick him it would probably be even more annoying).


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,879 Mod ✭✭✭✭ adrian522


    Seems bizarre that more teams aren't going, but I only saw a report saying NE and SF were confirmed not that no other teams were going. Every team in the top 10 should be doing their work on these QBs, though I guess these pro days don't really make that much difference to teams evaluation and a lot of teams may have already attended the first pro day.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Woke up this morning to see a load of articles about a swap involving Rodgers. Where did that come from? Other than the old draft day story


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  • Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭ myate


    Grant Cohn & his dad (old Niners writer) were on about it yesterday. Not going to happen, but would be top of my choice of things to do with the no.3 pick. Would take like they said, no.3, Jimmy probably, and more.


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