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New Scottish bishop could see going to jail over gay 'marriage'

  • 25-07-2012 6:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭


    Glasgow, Scotland, Jul 25, 2012 / 11:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Archbishop-designate Philip Tartaglia of Glasgow could see himself being imprisoned for speaking out in support of the traditional married family.

    “I could see myself going to jail possibly at some point over the next 15 years, if God spares me, if I speak out,” Archbishop Tartaglia said in an interview with STV News July 24.

    His comments came just a day before the Scottish government announced it would legislate in favor of same-sex “marriage.” Archbishop Tartaglia warned that the redefinition of marriage will have “enormous implications for religious liberty.”

    “I am deeply concerned that today, defending the traditional meaning of marriage is almost considered ‘hate speech’ and branded intolerant. Such a response is undemocratic, closes debate and is highly manipulative,” he told CNA on July 24.

    Last month the leading Scottish lawyer Aidan O’Neill warned that same-sex “marriage” legislation will radically undermine religious liberty in Scotland.

    He predicted that a change in the law could result in employees being fired for opposing same-sex “marriage,” ministers and priests being sued for refusing to allow “wedding” ceremonies to take place in their churches, school children being forced to attend homosexual history lessons, and couples being rejected as foster parents if they oppose the new legislation.


    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new-scottish-bishop-could-see-going-to-jail-over-gay-marriage/


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Is it just me or does he seems to relish the thought of being sent to prison? Paranoid nonsense in my opinion, even now, churches have the right to decide who can and can't be married by their ministers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭NotForResale


    Glasgow, Scotland, Jul 25, 2012 / 11:20 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Archbishop-designate Philip Tartaglia of Glasgow could see himself being imprisoned for speaking out in support of the traditional married family.

    “I could see myself going to jail possibly at some point over the next 15 years, if God spares me, if I speak out,” Archbishop Tartaglia said in an interview with STV News July 24.

    His comments came just a day before the Scottish government announced it would legislate in favor of same-sex “marriage.” Archbishop Tartaglia warned that the redefinition of marriage will have “enormous implications for religious liberty.”

    “I am deeply concerned that today, defending the traditional meaning of marriage is almost considered ‘hate speech’ and branded intolerant. Such a response is undemocratic, closes debate and is highly manipulative,” he told CNA on July 24.

    Last month the leading Scottish lawyer Aidan O’Neill warned that same-sex “marriage” legislation will radically undermine religious liberty in Scotland.

    He predicted that a change in the law could result in employees being fired for opposing same-sex “marriage,” ministers and priests being sued for refusing to allow “wedding” ceremonies to take place in their churches, school children being forced to attend homosexual history lessons, and couples being rejected as foster parents if they oppose the new legislation.





    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new-scottish-bishop-could-see-going-to-jail-over-gay-marriage/




    I wasn't aware that they were banning traditional marriage and forcing everyone to marry members of the same sex.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Erm, he simply claims that he could see himself in prison. It seems like a non-story that basically says 'Ohh look, i'm being condemned' when he isn't really....

    A 'homosexual history lesson' :rolleyes: if he means it in terms of the context of the current times being reflected upon in future history lessons, it probably will be studied because it would be considered historically significant. Why exactly should a part of history be ignored because parents don't like that the events transpired? For example should a sexist parent be allowed to prevent their child from learning about the suffragettes movement?

    As per usual, the article you sourced seems to want to fear monger and bases itself on hearsay. Gay marriages won't result in churches being forced to host them and your religious freedoms allow you to be intolerant but that will not prevent people from calling it intolerance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭Snappy Smurf


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭NotForResale


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    They can't even get them to be held accountable for the child abuse scandals so i doubt it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭Wiggles88


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.
    Do you have a link for that? To be fair I agree that a private church should have the right to refuse marriage if it goes against their teachings, state marriages on the other hand, there is no basis for refusing gay marriage.
    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    Paranoia setting in I see.


    Edit: FYI: Shouldn't that read "180 degree changes..." in your sig snappy, as it stands it makes no sense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    Why hasn't the Catholic Church been ordered to perform all straight marriages on request then? It demands certain conditions of all couples who ask to be married and the state hasn't interfered.

    Same-sex couples can marry in the Church of Sweden and the Church of Denmark. These were decisions taken by the churches themselves, not the state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    In other news Bishop thinks he might fancy bacon and cababge for dinner tomorrow.

    ffs, bull**** story is bull****


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    The two examples where Nordic countries seem to allow it in their church is Sweden and Denmark. However this decision was reached by their bishops as they thought the marriages should be allowed under their faith. They weren't forced to do so, still can't see an issue.

    Denmark's case is rather interesting..
    The process towards the official recognition of same sex marriage in the Church of Denmark began on 8 February 1973, when 'Provo Priest' Harald Søbye performed a wedding of a male couple, although not legally recognised, on a suggestion from a journalist at the newspaper Ekstra Bladet, which announced it as 'The World's First Gay Wedding'. On 25 February 1973 Harald Søbye performed another wedding, of a female couple, in a television programme. The state prosecrutor investigated the cases, but concluded that the priest's use of his vestment was not illegal. Søbye had been retired in 1964 for political activism, but remained an ordained priest within the National Church. During the next 15 years, Søbye performed around 210 blessings or weddings of same-sex couples.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Denmark#Same-sex_marriage
    So it's not as if either church was forced into anything..... :pac: Unless you might think it's an elaborate government scheme since the seventies where they planted spy priests to marry couples.

    Either way, freedom of religion allows you to discriminate if the church wishes to do so.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,768 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    When should a profound step is taken by the State to redefine a pillar of society that is marriage, as per Hyde definition, then it would be a much smaller step to imprison those opposing such a radical change, especially under if prosecuted under the incitement under Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    His quest for martyrdom may have to seek a different route.....

    The legislation will include significant new protections and "conscience
    clauses" for churches and individual clergy who object to gay marriage on religious grounds, said Nicola Sturgeon,
    the deputy first minister.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/25/scotland-legalise-same-sex-marriage


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    It's funny because you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Both of those churches decided it was best, and perfectly okay, for them to allow fellow Christians to marry in their churches if they wish.

    You may as well try claiming that Atheists, Muslim or Buddhists can sue the Church because they can't marry there.

    I hate to tell you this Smurf, the big scary gays aren't out to take over the world, and the VAST majority of them have no interest in Christian wedding. They just want the same tax rights, inheritance and other legal rights you and I get.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    You may as well try claiming that Atheists, Muslim or Buddhists can sue the Church because they can't marry there.

    I hate to tell you this Smurf, the big scary gays aren't out to take over the world, and the VAST majority of them have no interest in Christian wedding. They just want the same tax rights, inheritance and other legal rights you and I get.

    This is the point, it's like suggesting that I could sue a rabbi for refusing to allow me to get married in his synagogue! Religious bodies have had various restrictions on who can and can't get married for years and not once have I heard of an incitement to hatred case. If people want to indulge their persecution fantasies though...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Interesting that he doesn't mention what laws or propossed laws would see him martyred.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    i don't understand why anyone gay would want to get married in a catholic church (using catholicism as an example, not a definitive). regardless of your stance on the church, or on homosexuality, it's clear that each of them are very much at odds with each other. the idea that someone would want to get married in a place that's so clearly and openly against the idea of them getting married absolutely baffles me really.

    im all for gay marriage. it's not a religious thing, it's an equality thing. let them have the same rights as everyone else in the eyes of the law, but i don't see why they should have to force their way into churches

    by the same token, i dont see why the catholic church, and its followers, are so against gay marriage. by definition someone who is engaging in a homosexual relationship is not a catholic - so why does it matter what they do? they're not part of your religion, and your religion only applies to your religion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Cossax


    Helix wrote: »
    i don't understand why anyone gay would want to get married in a catholic church (using catholicism as an example, not a definitive). regardless of your stance on the church, or on homosexuality, it's clear that each of them are very much at odds with each other. the idea that someone would want to get married in a place that's so clearly and openly against the idea of them getting married absolutely baffles me really.

    im all for gay marriage. it's not a religious thing, it's an equality thing. let them have the same rights as everyone else in the eyes of the law, but i don't see why they should have to force their way into churches

    by the same token, i dont see why the catholic church, and its followers, are so against gay marriage. by definition someone who is engaging in a homosexual relationship is not a catholic - so why does it matter what they do? they're not part of your religion, and your religion only applies to your religion

    I don't see anyone suggesting that, except perhaps some religious people trying to use it as an excuse to hide behind in campaigning against gay marriage despite someone in this thread quoting that there would be opt outs for churches/clergy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Cossax wrote: »
    I don't see anyone suggesting that, except perhaps some religious people trying to use it as an excuse to hide behind in campaigning against gay marriage despite someone in this thread quoting that there would be opt outs for churches/clergy.

    as i say, i'm very much pro gay rights, and i would be very much anti organised religion, but once the churches' rights not to facilitate anything against their religion within their religion is recognised, then i really don't see any issue with anything

    let them speak out against homosexuality, that's their right and their beliefs, conversely they need to address their concerns about homosexuality to their own congregations, not people who (by the religion's rules) are not eligible to be part of them, and they need to do it in such a way that doesn't incite violence or hatred. if they're so confident that they gays aren't getting into heaven, then they should simply disregard their existence full stop imo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Cossax


    Helix wrote: »
    as i say, i'm very much pro gay rights, and i would be very much anti organised religion, but once the churches' rights not to facilitate anything against their religion within their religion is recognised, then i really don't see any issue with anything

    let them speak out against homosexuality, that's their right and their beliefs, conversely they need to address their concerns about homosexuality to their own congregations, not people who (by the religion's rules) are not eligible to be part of them, and they need to do it in such a way that doesn't incite violence or hatred. if they're so confident that they gays aren't getting into heaven, then they should simply disregard their existence full stop imo

    Oh I got your position, I was just saying that I haven't seen too many suggestions that gay marriage will mean gay people getting married in churches that don't allow it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Cossax wrote: »
    Oh I got your position, I was just saying that I haven't seen too many suggestions that gay marriage will mean gay people getting married in churches that don't allow it.

    there's been one already in this thread, and there'll probably be more though

    call it pre-emptive if you will :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    In one of the Nordic countries (not sure which) recently, they approved gay marriafges in churches. Although they say it won't force churches to bear gay weddings, it's all empty promises. The day is coming when the powers try to force the Catholic Church to host gay weddings. It's coming. Watch this space.

    This is coming...

    If you speak for normal marriage = hate crime = jail.

    If you refuse to hold state-sanctioned gay marriages in your church = hate crime = jail.

    Nah man, it's the lizard people you need to watch out for! They're the ones behind the NWO and- wait, which forum is this again?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    twinQuins wrote: »
    Nah man, it's the lizard people you need to watch out for! They're the ones behind the NWO and- wait, which forum is this again?

    Snappy Smurf is no longer with us. For expressing an opinion like his... he had to go on a holiday.............. permanently

    cXRj2.png

    Hail Secularism!! Mandatory gay marriage for all!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    Nodin wrote: »
    His quest for martyrdom may have to seek a different route.....


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/25/scotland-legalise-same-sex-marriage
    Excuse me? This thread is for people who want to feel oppressed and that sort of reference to reality is not welcome here. If you return, I suggest you post a piece of paranoid conjecture to make up for your attempt at a derail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Morbert wrote: »
    Snappy Smurf is no longer with us. For expressing an opinion like his... he had to go on a holiday.............. permanently

    cXRj2.png

    Hail Secularism!! Mandatory gay marriage for all!!

    Ye know I really hate this carry on. No-one is talking about people being forced into gay unions etc. Rather, a very reasonable foresight is being used to note that it is likely in the future that expressing any contrary opinion to the LGBT question will be construed as hate speech. Then in terms of churches, all it requires is the LGBT lobby to turn its attention to religious institutions, which it will in time. You really think thats far fetched?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Rather, a very reasonable foresight is being used to note that it is likely in the future that expressing any contrary opinion to the LGBT question will be construed as hate speech. Then in terms of churches, all it requires is the LGBT lobby to turn its attention to religious institutions, which it will in time. You really think thats far fetched?

    While I'm not entirely sure what "the LGBT question" is (other than "Should LGBT people be afforded rights equal to that of non-LGBT people?"), I think your post is rather dramatic.

    "I do not think a gay couple should marry for reasons XYZ" IS NOT hate speech. You have, of course, every right to discuss/debate/disagree.

    "I do not think a gay couple should marry for reasons XYZ and I'm going to walk up the street shouting 'Burn in hell, homos' " IS hate speech and you will be put in prison.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    [...] it is likely in the future that expressing any contrary opinion to the LGBT question will be construed as hate speech.[...]
    In the future, it's certainly possible that homophobic prose, and pot-stirring hate-speech in general, will be subject to greater legal sanction than it is now.

    That said, the case of the homophobic Swedish religious preacher Åke Green suggests that European law still gives more weight to individuals claiming a right to an apparently unfettered "freedom of religion" than it does to victims of hate-speech, which hardly seems right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,906 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Then in terms of churches, all it requires is the LGBT lobby to turn its attention to religious institutions, which it will in time. You really think thats far fetched?
    You see a lot of churches being forced to perform secular ceremonies, do you?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ye know I really hate this carry on. No-one is talking about people being forced into gay unions etc. Rather, a very reasonable foresight is being used to note that it is likely in the future that expressing any contrary opinion to the LGBT question will be construed as hate speech. Then in terms of churches, all it requires is the LGBT lobby to turn its attention to religious institutions, which it will in time. You really think thats far fetched?

    Yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    As an aside, I am very wary of the term "hate speech", and am very much in favour of free speech in general.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,428 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Morbert wrote: »
    As an aside, I am very wary of the term "hate speech", and am very much in favour of free speech in general.
    In general, so am I, but in social constructs like religion, there's a plausible case to be made that the rights normally conferred by free speech should not apply, when the reciprocal responsibility of encouraging mature, free speech and a concomitant independence of thought and high standard of debate aren't respected either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    doctoremma wrote: »
    While I'm not entirely sure what "the LGBT question" is (other than "Should LGBT people be afforded rights equal to that of non-LGBT people?"), I think your post is rather dramatic.

    "I do not think a gay couple should marry for reasons XYZ" IS NOT hate speech. You have, of course, every right to discuss/debate/disagree.

    "I do not think a gay couple should marry for reasons XYZ and I'm going to walk up the street shouting 'Burn in hell, homos' " IS hate speech and you will be put in prison.

    Just a perusal of any of these threads on little boards.ie should indicate that a lot of people DON'T distinguish the two.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Morbert wrote: »
    Yes.

    Well I hope you're right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just a perusal of any of these threads on little boards.ie should indicate that a lot of people DON'T distinguish the two.
    Perhaps a perusal through the legal framework might be more appropriate?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Perhaps a perusal through the legal framework might be more appropriate?

    Why? Would that have helped us forsee the introduction of civil unions in 1950?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Why? Would that have helped us forsee the introduction of civil unions in 1950?
    I'm suggesting that you shouldn't use the keyboards heroics of internet denizens to determine what constitutes "hate speech".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I'm suggesting that you shouldn't use the keyboards heroics of internet denizens to determine what constitutes "hate speech".

    I don't. I just said that you can even tell by the boards.ie postings, that for some those two incidents you cited are indistinguishable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭Snappy Smurf


    Just in case anyone thinks that the Bishop is being alarmist, there are two shocking pieces here, and I invite all to read them and then to discuss them on this thread. If our concerns are unfounded, then it is up to you, the advocates of gay marriage, to convince us that we are wrong. Somehow, I doubt that you will be able to do that, in light of these disturbing articles.

    The Coming Persecution...

    "The writing is on the wall. Gay marriage is the lie that will create the next Gulag.."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Just in case anyone thinks that the Bishop is being alarmist, there are two shocking pieces here, and I invite all to read them and then to discuss them on this thread. If our concerns are unfounded, then it is up to you, the advocates of gay marriage, to convince us that we are wrong. Somehow, I doubt that you will be able to do that, in light of these disturbing articles.

    The Coming Persecution...

    "The writing is on the wall. Gay marriage is the lie that will create the next Gulag.."

    Sorry to interrupt, however.....
    A draft bill that will enable gay and lesbian couples to marry with the same legal rights as heterosexual couples will be published later this year and is expected to be enacted next year, after Scottish ministers resisted intense pressure from the Catholic church to drop the proposals.

    The legislation will include significant new protections and "conscience
    clauses" for churches and individual clergy who object to gay
    marriage on religious grounds, said Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy first minister.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/25/scotland-legalise-same-sex-marriage

    (my bold)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    There is now a Megathread on Homosexuality open for business. So, in order to stop the Forum being overrun by one subject, other threads dealing with all matters gay are being locked.


This discussion has been closed.
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