Couples "Living in darkness"

newmug

I went to confession yesterday, and I confessed to sex before marraige with my fiance - as you do - and for penance, the priest asked me to say a Hail Mary for couples "living in darkness". I had never heard this term before. I thought it was a sensible and accurate, yet non-offending way of describing the situation. It acknowledeged that couples who love each other and yet who aren't married, naturally have sex, and are indeed in a loving, serious relationship. It lent the sincerity of a properly married couple to an almost married couple, with the exception that the almost married couple just need final clearance from God, ie to take their wedding vows. It differentiated between having sex together as a couple, versus promiscuity. I just thought it was a very mature and appropriate term. Any thoughts?

Benny_Cake

newmug wrote: »

I went to confession yesterday, and I confessed to sex before marraige with my fiance - as you do - and for penance, the priest asked me to say a Hail Mary for couples "living in darkness". I had never heard this term before. I thought it was a sensible and accurate, yet non-offending way of describing the situation. It acknowledeged that couples who love each other and yet who aren't married, naturally have sex, and are indeed in a loving, serious relationship. It lent the sincerity of a properly married couple to an almost married couple, with the exception that the almost married couple just need final clearance from God, ie to take their wedding vows. It differentiated between having sex together as a couple, versus promiscuity. I just thought it was a very mature and appropriate term. Any thoughts?

What do you think he meant by "couples living in darkness" though? It sounds to me as if he is referring to unmarried couples living together (and that's not me being judgemental, I am in such a relationship myself!). Obviously a couple living in a committed relationship which is seen as such by the community is vastly different to sleeping around whenever you like - in fact, marriage for the common man or woman was pretty much that until relatively recently times - hence "common-law wife" etc. If the priest was differentiating between such relationships and promiscuity then from a pastoral point of view that is admirable.

Madam_X

There's no "almost" married about it. It would have been a straightforward sin not long ago, and catholic doctrine hasn't changed. He was just being lenient with you because the organisation of which he is part has so little power now and wants all the members it can get.

totus tuus

Darkness equates blindness/sinfulness.

Ps. 82:5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

Isa. 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

mikom

newmug wrote: »

I went to confession yesterday, and I confessed to sex before marraige with my fiance - as you do - and for penance, the priest asked me to say a Hail Mary for couples "living in darkness".
Any thoughts?

He was probably talking about sex with the lights out............ so god can't see you.

Snappy Smurf

I don't think there is any difference between a couple living together and fornicating and the guy and the girl who hook up on a Saturday night and fornicate. Fornication is fornication, as they say. No offense dude, but it seems to me like you are trying to justify yourself and your actions.

I had never heard this term before. I thought it was a sensible and accurate, yet non-offending way of describing the situation. It acknowledeged that couples who love each other and yet who aren't married, naturally have sex, and are indeed in a loving, serious relationship. It lent the sincerity of a properly married couple to an almost married couple, with the exception that the almost married couple just need final clearance from God, ie to take their wedding vows. It differentiated between having sex together as a couple, versus promiscuity. I just thought it was a very mature and appropriate term. Any thoughts?

Madam_X

Yep Smurf. I don't agree with your view of non-marital sex as a bad thing, but at least you're being consistent with the tenets of your faith. Pity a lot of "catholics" aren't.

Benny_Cake

Onixx wrote: »

Yep Smurf. I don't agree with your view of non-marital sex as a bad thing, but at least you're being consistent with the tenets of your faith. Pity a lot of "catholics" aren't.

I find it strange to see someone who isn't a Christian (at least I assume that's the case), taking a Christian to task because they aren't following every aspect of traditional teaching. It seems that hardline Catholicism is a great idea, but only for other people.

Onesimus

Would I be the only one here to see newmugs great fidelity to God through doing his/her best to be closer to Christ? Ok so he/she is a little off the mark and it's always nice to get instruction on our faith but I admire newmugs fidelity and honesty with God.

Benny_Cake

Onesimus wrote: »

Would I be the only one here to see newmugs great fidelity to God through doing his/her best to be closer to Christ? Ok so he/she is a little off the mark and it's always nice to get instruction on our faith but I admire newmugs fidelity and honesty with God.

I don't see all sex before marriage as necessarily being sinful. But newmug does to some extent) and seems to have acted conscientiously here. While I'm no longer in communion with the Catholic Church, I do see the value in confession as something that allows us to offload the burden of guilt that can act as a barrier between the sinner (which everyone is) and God. It's a shame that some people treat honesty with such cynicism.

Snappy Smurf

Onesimus wrote: »

Would I be the only one here to see newmugs great fidelity to God through doing his/her best to be closer to Christ? Ok so he/she is a little off the mark and it's always nice to get instruction on our faith but I admire newmugs fidelity and honesty with God.

True love wills the good of the other. It could be the case that a 'loving' Catholic couple fornicating actually have greater culpability than two casual partners who hook up at the weekend for a one-off.

I am aware of this factor in my own life. My culpability for my sins is greater since I am a Catholic who ought to know better. It is not as if I can plead ignorance as some might be able to do to some degree.

To the OP, I am thinking that putting contents of your confession on the forum is not a good idea as it (potentially) compromises the seal of the confession too, in some ways. I am not trying to be harsh with you, but I do detect some attempt at self-justification/rationalising your sin in your OP.

Benny_Cake

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

To the OP, I am thinking that putting contents of your confession on the forum is not a good idea as it (potentially) compromises the seal of the confession too, in some ways. I am not trying to be harsh with you, but I do detect some attempt at self-justification/rationalising your sin in your OP.

The seal of the confession only applies to the priest surely?

MagicMarker

Did you accidentally have sex with your fiance OP? Or is this usually how confession goes, you confess to something you think is wrong, wiping the slate clean, and then go right back and do it again?

Snappy Smurf

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The seal of the confession only applies to the priest surely?

No it actually applies to the penitent as well as anyone else who may have heard anything!

Madam_X

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I find it strange to see someone who isn't a Christian (at least I assume that's the case), taking a Christian to task because they aren't following every aspect of traditional teaching.

It's not strange really - it's just a dislike of hypocrisy, inconsistency, fickleness.

It seems that hardline Catholicism is a great idea, but only for other people.

Now THAT is strange. I don't identify as catholic or christian - that alone should tell you I don't think hardline catholicism is a great idea. But there are those who do think so, and identify themselves as being followers of it - yet they break the rules, and I think it's very odd that you'd deem it unreasonable of someone simply saying "Practise what you preach."

wonderfulname

Is that not just a variation of "living in sin"? I wouldn't read any further into the phrase than that to be honest.

Benny_Cake

Onixx wrote: »

Now THAT is strange. I don't identify as catholic or christian - that alone should tell you I don't think hardline catholicism is a great idea. But there are those who do think so, and identify themselves as being followers of it - yet they break the rules, and I think it's very odd that you'd deem it unreasonable of someone simply saying "Practise what you preach."

Not a problem regarding the idea of "practise what you preach". Surely the charge of hypocrisy would only apply in this instance if the OP was condemning others for pre-marital sex or for being less than perfect Catholics. If the 85% who identified as Catholic in the census didn't break some rules, there would be no contraception, no divorce - something we'd probably both agree wouldn't be a good thing

philologos

MagicMarker wrote: »

Did you accidentally have sex with your fiance OP? Or is this usually how confession goes, you confess to something you think is wrong, wiping the slate clean, and then go right back and do it again?

You clearly don't know what the concept of repentance means.

We've all sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23). There is nobody not one who has not done this. We are all guilty before God, and rightfully we should be condemned by Him (John 3:18).

God in His loving mercy sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ so that we might be forgiven. Jesus, being perfect and blameless stood as a substitute for the sins of mankind, bearing God's wrath on the cross so that we might be justified before God.

As a result we have died to our sinful nature, and if we truly repent have a new opportunity to know God. That's exciting. God in His loving mercy is going to bring us from death to live, God in His loving mercy will transform us completely if we believe and trust in Him.

So, we repent and we stand justified, and as a result of our faith and trust in Jesus, He will bring us to full holiness on the day of Judgement.

Forgiveness does not mean go back and do the same things you used to. Romans and other books of Scripture make this abundantly clear.

MagicMarker

philologos wrote: »

You clearly don't know what the concept of repentance means.

I know what the word means, going to confession for a few minutes and then going back to what I assume is a healthy pre-marriage sex life doesn't sound much like repentance to me though.

NotForResale

"if you don't join our magic club sex is dirty"

riiight.

philologos

MagicMarker wrote: »

I know what the word means, going to confession for a few minutes and then going back to what I assume is a healthy pre-marriage sex life doesn't sound much like repentance to me though.

Where did the OP imply that was going to be the case?

MagicMarker

philologos wrote: »

Where did the OP imply that was going to be the case?

He didn't, I am though. Call it a hunch.

philologos

NotForResale wrote: »

"if you don't join our magic club sex is dirty"

riiight.

For the record, I don't think even the most conservative Roman Catholics believe this to be true.

From my non-Catholic perspective, it's clear that most Christians would believe that sex is a good thing in the right context. I.E - In a marriage, where both man and wife have made clear commitments to one another.

NotForResale

philologos wrote: »

For the record, I don't think even the most conservative Roman Catholics believe this to be true.

From my non-Catholic perspective, it's clear that most Christians would believe that sex is a good thing in the right context. I.E - In a marriage, where both man and wife have made clear commitments to one another.

hence you have to join the marriage club.

mikom

NotForResale wrote: »

hence you have to join the marriage club.

Shush.

The first rule of marriage club is you do not talk about marriage club.

doctoremma

philologos wrote: »

From my non-Catholic perspective, it's clear that most Christians would believe that sex is a good thing in the right context. I.E - In a marriage, where both man and wife have made clear commitments to one another.

What if the "marriage club" has blackballed you?

newmug

Benny_Cake wrote: »

What do you think he meant by "couples living in darkness" though? It sounds to me as if he is referring to unmarried couples living together ........If the priest was differentiating between such relationships and promiscuity then from a pastoral point of view that is admirable.

Thats exactly what he meant. And I agree, his point of view was indeed admirable.

Onixx wrote: »

There's no "almost" married about it. It would have been a straightforward sin not long ago, and catholic doctrine hasn't changed.

It still is, thats why i confessed it.

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

I don't think there is any difference between a couple living together and fornicating and the guy and the girl who hook up on a Saturday night and fornicate. Fornication is fornication, as they say. No offense dude, but it seems to me like you are trying to justify yourself and your actions.

I couldnt agree more. Not justifying anything.

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

To the OP, I am thinking that putting contents of your confession on the forum is not a good idea as it (potentially) compromises the seal of the confession too, in some ways. I am not trying to be harsh with you, but I do detect some attempt at self-justification/rationalising your sin in your OP.

Well you's dont know who I am:D

You're the second person to say I was trying to justify my sin, I'm not.

MagicMarker wrote: »

Did you accidentally have sex with your fiance OP? Or is this usually how confession goes, you confess to something you think is wrong, wiping the slate clean, and then go right back and do it again?

I wont be doing it again. We're getting married. Then it wont be a sin.

MagicMarker wrote: »

I know what the word means, going to confession for a few minutes and then going back to what I assume is a healthy pre-marriage sex life doesn't sound much like repentance to me though.

See above.

NotForResale wrote: »

"if you don't join our magic club sex is dirty"

riiight.

WTF?

baalthor

newmug wrote: »

I wont be doing it again. We're getting married. Then it wont be a sin.

What if, due to unforeseen circumstances, you had to postpone your marriage for several years? Would you and your fiance abstain from sexual relations during that time?

philologos

baalthor wrote: »

What if, due to unforeseen circumstances, you had to postpone your marriage for several years? Would you and your fiance abstain from sexual relations during that time?

Why would one have to postpone it? - I think generally the idea that one has to have a very expensive wedding and so on is what keeps people from being married, but it needn't be so.

newmug

baalthor wrote: »

What if, due to unforeseen circumstances, you had to postpone your marriage for several years? Would you and your fiance abstain from sexual relations during that time?

Well yes, we'd sincerely try. And if, through human weakness, we did have sex, we'd confess it as soon as possible and ask for forgiveness.

Onesimus

It must be noted that whoever said that a penitent who reveals what was said in the confessional is a sin, is wrong. Only the priest is not allowed to reveal what was said in the confessional. The penitent is free to say anything that was said in the confessional. Michelle Arnold from CAF will back me up on that one as she is the one who said it.

Snappy Smurf

Onesimus wrote: »

It must be noted that whoever said that a penitent who reveals what was said in the confessional is a sin, is wrong. Only the priest is not allowed to reveal what was said in the confessional. The penitent is free to say anything that was said in the confessional. Michelle Arnold from CAF will back me up on that one as she is the one who said it.

I am happy to confirm that the priest and anyone who overhears the confession are bound by the seal of the confession, but the penitent is not. However I include below some guidance on this matter from Fr Z:

But in general a person can reveal he contents of his own confession and what the priest says.

That said, it is probably better for the penitent not to speak too much about what occurs in the confessional under normal circumstances. The less said about concrete instances of the sacrament of penance the better.

There are some exception to this, of course. Off the top of my head I can think of both positive reasons and negative reasons. For example, if a priest gave a particularly good piece of advice, perhaps that might be shared if you were not also going to reveal your own sins as a result. Otherwise, if a priest were to do something outrageously stupid or attempt a crime or the like, the penitent could and should address himself to the priest’s superior about what happened. The difficulty is, of course, that the priest remains bound by the seal and it could wind up being a matter of the word of penitent "A" against Fr. "B".

So, the long and the short is that a penitent in general can speak of his own confession and the advice and penance received, but in normal circumstances it is better to leave it for the most part in silence.

-- http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/05/quaeritur-does-the-seal-of-confession-apply-also-to-the-penitent/