HBSF30 - quieter Cherry MX 30mm button

K.O.Kiki

Just saw this via SRK Tech Talk.

http://www.indiegogo.com/HBFS30

New project on IndieGoGo to fund a new 30mm design that uses Cherry MX switches.

So lighter activation AND longer life (and the switches are standard, too).


Cushion pad to quiet the button.

Gonna put myself down for either
or


I just hope he reaches his goal!


*EDIT*
Or does anyone want to go halfsies on the $50 one?

UberPrinny_Baal

What's the difference between this theoretical project and the actual quiet Sanwa stick they recently announced (and released?)

K.O.Kiki

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

What's the difference between this theoretical project and the actual quiet Sanwa stick they recently announced (and released?)

The "quiet" Sanwa buttons are

• Expensive (around $3.50 each and only sold as 4-pack)
• Not available yet (e-stores have been waiting months to stock them by now)
• Still use OBSF switches (1 million presses to failure)

And the quietening thing is the same as this -- just a piece of foam.

As for the sticks, I've heard no info on them (what switches or other mods it has) other than that it's DOUBLE the price of a JLF.
So instead, myself & PPC bought a Cherry modification kit from Paradise Arcade Shop.

PPC

The cherry switches in the JLF are a hell of a lot quieter, but they feel a bit too squidgy for my liking.
If they could be stiffer and as quiet then they'd be perfect.

Can't wait to get the HBSF30s, I just bought a KBC Poker this week with brown switches and love it.

K.O.Kiki

PPC wrote: »

The cherry switches in the JLF are a hell of a lot quieter, but they feel a bit too squidgy for my liking.
If they could be stiffer and as quiet then they'd be perfect.

Can't wait to get the HBSF30s, I just bought a KBC Poker this week with brown switches and love it.

I know there's a guy on SRK selling stronger springs (as doubling springs is dumb), or just try an LS-32 spring?

PPC

Its not the spring, its the returns on the switch.
A spring would help with the return, but the force to engage the switch is fine as is, wouldn't like it any stronger.

A spring in an OBSN or an OBSF 30 completely changes the responsiveness of it. The plunger in those buttons is actually physically connected to the microswitch, and the spring action of the switch is what handles the return on the plunger. If you add another spring into the casing, it may help with noise, but really all you do is stiffen the button action, and change the feel of your buttons in a way that wouldn't be good for a fighting game.

The noise cushioning idea seems like it would be fairly simple to do quite cheaply though. It would just be a case of finding some foam rubber or other durable, soft material of the right thickness and cushioning the base of the button cavity and the tops of the spring loaded tabs on the sides of the plungers. It would have to be fairly thin stuff though, as the deadzone on those buttons is actually very shallow. Any thicker than that and you'd be messing with the response and pressure needed to activate the switch, which again wouldn't be good for a fighting game which needs a quick response on the buttons.

I have a few spare obsf-30 buttons. Maybe I'll crack one open and mess around with it and see what I can come up with.

K.O.Kiki

Deleted User wrote: »

The noise cushioning idea seems like it would be fairly simple to do quite cheaply though. It would just be a case of finding some foam rubber or other durable, soft material of the right thickness and cushioning the base of the button cavity and the tops of the spring loaded tabs on the sides of the plungers. It would have to be fairly thin stuff though, as the deadzone on those buttons is actually very shallow. Any thicker than that and you'd be messing with the response and pressure needed to activate the switch, which again wouldn't be good for a fighting game which needs a quick response on the buttons.

I have a few spare obsf-30 buttons. Maybe I'll crack one open and mess around with it and see what I can come up with.

I tried this with some mousemat-type material.
Didn't work very well, and it's a pain to cut to the correct inside & outside diameters.

K.O.Kiki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I tried this with some mousemat-type material.
Didn't work very well, and it's a pain to cut to the correct inside & outside diameters.

I was thinking a couple of layers of duct tape or cloth tape or something might do it. It's really only to kill the clacking sound that the button makes, which shouldn't be too difficult.

Quieter buttons would make mash special moves in AE a lot more useful in offline versus matches. I always thought capcom dropped the ball in designing those the way they did. Mash specials should have been instantly activated by a QCF or HCF command plus mashing from day 1. The mash mechanic is not at all suited to advanced play, your opponent can hear the move long before they see it.

PPC

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking a couple of layers of duct tape or cloth tape or something might do it. It's really only to kill the clacking sound that the button makes, which shouldn't be too difficult.

Quieter buttons would make mash special moves in AE a lot more useful in offline versus matches. I always thought capcom dropped the ball in designing those the way they did. Mash specials should have been instantly activated by a QCF or HCF command plus mashing from day 1. The mash mechanic is not at all suited to advanced play, your opponent can hear the move long before they see it.

For advanced play you should be comboing into them or use blanka's electricity as an AA so it shouldn't really matter if your opponent can hear you or not.
I would prefer less inputs (3 as per MvC) as I have problems pushing the buttons that fast.

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

Mash specials should have been instantly activated by a QCF or HCF command plus mashing from day 1. The mash mechanic is not at all suited to advanced play, your opponent can hear the move long before they see it.

Does this mean you're trying Honda more seriously in AE?

I don't play a proper mash character, so I'm not going to be able to get our a Hundred Hand Slap any easier than you, but the problem you're describing isn't an "advanced" play issue, it's more of an intermediate one

At Advanced levels I think QCF/HCF + Mash would actually make things harder for top players, and would change so much of the mechanics around the mash characters (for better or worse) that they'd end up completely different characters.

The mechanics of mashing FYI is 5 separate button inputs within a particular period of time (one second I think?)

If you can get mash moves to come out properly, they're pretty sweet since for Honda you can tap jab and have the mash buffered into the jabs recovery.

If you miss -> No mash.

If on hit (or block) Jab autocancelled into HHH for sweet hit or chip. The "Stevo special" is Jab -> Hands -> Hands -> Super; which is ridiculous damage off a safe, jab-bufferable special. I'm pretty sure your QCF/HCF solution would make this impossible, unless you think you can do two HCF's in a row while maintaining back charge for super.

The two main ways to get mash moves to come out quickly on a stick is sliding (medium difficulty) which Dreddy does and piano-ing (hard difficulty) which Ladno does.

Next time you're in casuals with these guys or any stick players who can play mash characters, ask them to let you watch their hands and practice whatever method you like the look of better.

Once you practice your mash moves and get a good rhythm down for executing them, they're crazy powerful.

UberPrinny_Baal

I don't want to go off topic for the thread, so I'll try to keep this brief. I know about comboing into hands, masking your keypresses, and all that stuff, but i still think there should have been some consideration given to mash moves being instantly startable, and then continuable by way of mashing, in addition to the current system of just mashing to get them going. The main reason for this is because in their current form, they can't be used reactively. Largely speaking, you have to plan your attack with them. Whereas most characters have 3 or 4 special moves that can be used on reaction for specific situations, any character with a mash has to plan the use of theirs as part of an attacking combo or a chain or whatever, which (outside of the very advanced execution punish combo into hands stuff) takes away some of the potential usefulness of the moves.

As for the HCF/QCF thing, that was just an example of a possible way of doing it. I'm sure capcom could have come up with an input that didn't interfere with the character's mechanics. Even a charge-based option that necessitated burning your charge would have been a more thought out choice as far as I'm concerned. That would have made mash moves more useful. Something like charge back then down forward+mash for example, i don't know. It would have fundamentally changed tiers and game balances through the years, sure, but i still think it would have been a better system.

I don't believe that capcom were smart enough to foresee any complications for high level play back when they designed mashing special moves back in 1991 in SF2WW. There WAS no high level play when that system was conceived, but it's stayed more or less the same through all games for the last 20 years, and unless you're doing very clever stuff with your inputs on a mechanic that i think was initially designed to be very simple, you're losing some of the potential usefulness of one of a limited number of special moves a character has.

Chun li, sagat, dictator, and lots of other characters have had changes made to various move inputs over the years for very good reasons, it's strange to me that mashables haven't had the same treatment.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Does this mean you're trying Honda more seriously in AE?

Lol, nope, i'm even more scrubby with him in AE than i am with Ryu. I just switch to him when i'm tired of getting beaten with my Main. I've completed all of his trials, and i have a fair idea of all his tricks in terms of buffering mashes etc, but it will be a long time before you seem me doing any of it in a real match. Crossup buttslam spam and tick ochios is about as fancy as my honda gets.

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

The main reason for this is because in their current form, they can't be used reactively. Largely speaking, you have to plan your attack with them.

I think the fact you can tap a light punch, and have the game automatically cancel into hands depending on the situation completely disproves what you're saying here. The most amount of planning you would need to do is have back charge in case you wanted to cancel into super.

Sorry man, but I think what you perceive as a weakness of the game system is just a weakness in your own abilities.

Hands and Electricity seem crazy good to me in their current forms

PPC

Every character who has a mash move can combo into it from a light, so that really does negate the need to make it easier to do.
And its better because even if the mash move was easier to do, for example, Blanka's st.lp is 3 frame startup, where electricity is 5f for light and 10f for heavy.
Cancelling the st.lp into electricity means you can punish with it rather than being unable to if you used it directly.

Doctor DooM

Makdaddi, take a look at this video and tell me that hands isn't just fine in SF4.

Bear in mind problem had pretty much bodied the entire Irish scene at this point. Stevo was the last man standing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPYBCYDKze8

Match starts at 4:29:00 and contains hype.

Doctor DooM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Makdaddi, take a look at this video and tell me that hands isn't just fine in SF4.....Match starts at 4:29:00 and contains hype.

Yeah, I have to hand it to you (and to stevo) that's a seriously good honda, and the control over the hands is excellent. There are several really good quick reaction punishes using jab cancels. Really well played and a seriously hype set.

How much of that kind of reaction buffering and deep understanding of move properties/timings would you expect to see from players using honda at all but the highest levels of execution? Because that's really not the level of player the mashing mechanic was originally designed for.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Sorry man, but I think what you perceive as a weakness of the game system is just a weakness in your own abilities

Again, personally, i have no problem buffering/comboing into hands, or any of the high level techniques for getting into mash moves, that's aside from the point I'm making here. I can do those techniques fine (at least in training mode under no pressure) and they are all viable techniques, I just think that capcom dropped the ball with the design of the game mechanic in the first place. It works well at high levels (particularly when someone as skilled as stevo is working the controls), and people have gotten used to it now, but i still think mashable moves could have been more useful than they are for all but the highest level of player.

When you think of all the most dangerous and scary special moves all the way back through SF history, how many of them are mashables?

I can tell there's no appetite for agreeing with me on this, so i think I'll leave it at that, besides, it appears I've derailed another thread with pointless conjecture...doh!:mad:

Let's get back to talking about quiet buttons...

PPC

Deleted User wrote: »

The mash mechanic is not at all suited to advanced play, your opponent can hear the move long before they see it.

Deleted User wrote: »

It works well at high levels (particularly when someone as skilled as stevo is working the controls), and people have gotten used to it now, but i still think mashable moves could have been more useful than they are for all but the highest level of player.

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I have to hand it to you (and to stevo) that's a seriously good honda, and the control over the hands is excellent. There are several really good quick reaction punishes using jab cancels. Really well played and a seriously hype set.

How much of that kind of reaction buffering and deep understanding of move properties/timings would you expect to see from players using honda at all but the highest levels of execution? Because that's really not the level of player the mashing mechanic was originally designed for.

I dunno what you're getting at, I've been fighting people able to do piano since vanilla (D4rk onion stand up). If I am playing a Honda and I don't have a reason to disrepect him I will consider him capable of lp xx hands lp xx hands. Not doing so is suicide in SF4!


Maybe in SF2 WW it wasn't designed for that, but in SF4 it most definitely is. I'm even able to do it myself in the training room after 10 mins or so. Although to be fair I seem to have a reputation for terrible execution from the days I never comboed.


BTW: As the local mod, I have no problem with a bit of off topic ness as long as
a) There is not something the OP needs discussed and is being inhibited by the off topicness:
b) The off topicness is an interesting discussion.

If kiki feels he hasn't played out the quiet button thing I'll split the rest off with my apologies

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

When you think of all the most dangerous and scary special moves all the way back through SF history, how many of them are mashables?

It depends on if you're talking about through history, or right now.
I can't comment on what Capcom's "intent" was with mash moves originally, whether it was supposed to be noob friendly or not; but I can say that RIGHT NOW in SF4 I find few moves as scary or dangerous as Honda's HHS.

Deleted User wrote: »

I can tell there's no appetite for agreeing with me on this, so i think I'll leave it at that, besides, it appears I've derailed another thread with pointless conjecture...doh!:mad:

I wouldn't take people ganging up on you too personally, it's not because you're being super controversial, it's honestly just because you're mostly incorrect (sorry).

Personally I'd hate to see you NOT pick up a char like Honda if it really suits you, because you've got the misconception that mash moves are inherently mechanically flawed.

They are not.

chopperbyrne

The mash mechanic has changed over the years.

In older SF games it had to be the same button pressed repeatedly, in SFIV it's just five buttons pressed in a certain space of time and the final button pressed determines the strength.

UberPrinny_Baal

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

It depends on if you're talking about through history, or right now.

I was talking about throughout history. I think they're more viable now than they ever have been. In Honda's case that's clear just from doing his trial mode.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Personally I'd hate to see you NOT pick up a char like Honda if it really suits you, because you've got the misconception that mash moves are inherently mechanically flawed

I don't think that at all, and this will have no bearing on whether i use honda. I like honda, and I think mash moves work fine, particularly in IV, but i think they would have been more useful (in the entire of street fighter history) had they had an option of a command to make them start-up instantly. I don't know how to be any clearer here. It's not that i think they are flawed, i just think capcom missed a trick when they came up with the "mashing" thing. They could have been a tiny bit more useful and carried less of an execution barrier had they been designed differently...but i suppose you could apply that to any move in the game, theoretically.

Look at something like Deejay's MGU for example. A multi-hit charge special with a brief active window that activates instantly, and commits the character for a preset length of time, but you can mash P on it it to extend the time it stays out if you want to. Why not have a similar system for HHS or whatever, in addition to just mashing alone?

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at something like Deejay's MGU for example. A multi-hit charge special with a brief active window that activates instantly, and commits the character for a preset length of time, but you can mash P on it it to extend the time it stays out if you want to. Why not have a similar system for HHS or whatever, in addition to just mashing alone?

Interestingly enough, we actually have a recent modern example of this, albeit from the opposite starting point!

Mashed super moves were reintroduced to Ultimate Marvel after being absent in vanilla Marvel- and most people seem to really dislike them that I've spoken to!

Of course, if you want to talk mashing in Marvel, Chun Li's is the best. You can dash using two buttons and I use that as part of the input. lol

Also, Chun's lightning legs are exactly the way you described in SFxT and...well... SFxT.

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at something like Deejay's MGU for example. A multi-hit charge special with a brief active window that activates instantly, and commits the character for a preset length of time, but you can mash P on it it to extend the time it stays out if you want to. Why not have a similar system for HHS or whatever, in addition to just mashing alone?

Haha, Doom already stole my clever analogy, but Deejay's MGU is a bizarre example of the only SF special move with Marvel Hyper move properties.

Charge down, up and punch. After you've done that, mash for more damage. For regular MGU there is literally no reason NOT to mash, so why introduce that mechanic?

To be honest I'd prefer if it was just a normal charge move, OR a normal mash move.

If it was a normal mash move (which beta reports of Super SF4 said it was) it would be AWESOME, since it would give people a reason to be afraid of a Deejay walking forward (Jab -> MGU pressure); and currently there is nothing scary at all about a walking Deejay.

It would also give him a sweet chargeless punish so people would have to be more afraid of whiffing their moves.

UberPrinny_Baal

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Charge down, up and punch. After you've done that, mash for more damage. For regular MGU there is literally no reason NOT to mash, so why introduce that mechanic

On hit, i can't think of any reason not to mash it, but if that mechanic wasn't there, if it was a standard charge move with it's full length and you whiffed it you'd be a sitting duck for 2 or 3 seconds.

If you haven't got your opponent caught in hit or block stun with it, having an option to NOT mash it is good.

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

On hit, i can't think of any reason not to mash it, but if that mechanic wasn't there, if it was a standard charge move with it's full length and you whiffed it you'd be a sitting duck for 2 or 3 seconds.

If you haven't got your opponent caught in hit or block stun with it, having an option to NOT mash it is good.

Deejay's MGU is so unsafe on whiff it doesn't functionally matter if you mash it or not.
It really shouldn't ever be done outside of combo finishers, so you know it won't whiff.

So I'd way prefer to be able to do Walk Forward -> Jab -> MGU, instead of charge crouch -> crouching jab -> MGU

We're onto a slightly different topic than our original off-topic tangent; but there is no way anyone is convincing me that Deejay's MGU is anything but a stupidly implemented move.

Dreddybajs

You can mash Adon's punch super too.

K.O.Kiki

Mild correction:

You can choose to finish Adon's super 3 different ways (do nothing, with kicks, or mash punch).
While mashing punch gets you max damage if you started with only 2 hits prior, you lose maybe 5dmg compared to kick ender.

Dreddybajs

That's not a correction.

Back on-topic, i've tried a few different ways of silencing standard sanwa & semitsu 30mm buttons over the last couple of evenings, and it doesn't seem like something that's feasible to do with their design. I had a hard time getting a material that's thick enough to actually cushion the plunger enough to dampen the plastic "clacking" sound but still thin enough to be thinner than the deadzone on the microswitch so it doesn't affect the button's action.

I'm going to keep an eye out for a rubber washer of the right thickness and diameter for this, but short of finding one i can't see how it would be possible to do this properly outside of having a custom-made button with a deeper pot and a cushion pad, as per the cherry MX design.

EDIT: Somebody on SRK has done this with Neoprene inserts. I've also seen it done on youtube with the same material that a glasses cleaning cloth is made from. Interesting...

vid here

SRK link here

pic here

K.O.Kiki

HBSF-30 inside arcade stick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYw8twGxjv8

Matte-finish prototype buttons:

K.O.Kiki

Just in case anybody's still on-the-fence about funding (or you forgot):

He's redesigned the adapter to accept standard quick-disconnects like so:

He also mentions he's using feedback from Gamerbee in fine-tuning.

And the funding is sitting at $7584 of $8000 with 16 days left, so in all likelihood it WILL be funded.

Rob2D

I'm interested, but its a shame the first production run will be clear buttons only. I really like the look of that matte black finish!

But I suppose I could spare 50 quid for the guy; its a nice idea he has.

My only question is......do the higher priced rewards still include that bitchin' keychain :P

I love the idea, but i don't like the hexagonal finish on the button surround. It's too unlike anything else on the market. Like he wanted his product to scream "I AM NO ORDINARY BUTTON :mad:"

K.O.Kiki

MackDaddi wrote: »

I love the idea, but i don't like the hexagonal finish on the button surround. It's too unlike anything else on the market. Like he wanted his product to scream "I AM NO ORDINARY BUTTON :mad:"

That's what you're supposed to do...

K.O.Kiki

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

That's what you're supposed to do...

Maybe, they're just not to my taste that's all...

Rob2D

Right, I threw a few quid his way. Now hopefully the buttons won't disappoint.

K.O.Kiki

Test results from d3v on SRK:

Additional testing, noise levels from approx. 1ft. away.

Sanwa OBSF-30: 105dB
Seimitsu PS-14-KN: 105dB
HBFS-30 (Cherry MX Red): 84dB
HBFS-30 (Cherry MX Blue): 90dB

Also, from approx. 3ft away.

Sanwa OBSF-30: 89dB
Seimitsu PS-14-KN: 92dB
HBFS-30 (Cherry MX Red): 70dB
HBFS-30 (Cherry MX Blue): 75dB

In other words the harsh, plastic on plastic, sound made by the Sanwa and Seimitsu buttons travels further than that of the cushioned HBFS. This is important since you're girlfriend/wife/toddler isn't always in close proximity to the stick. They might not even be in the same room so how far the sound travels is important.

Also, red's feel like regular Sanwas, blues have a noticeable keyboard-like click.