Some of my newest vintage watches

fishguy

Hi,

Just wanted to share a few of the newcomers. All of them is fully restored.


Tellus 1940 Luftwaffe Pilots watch
Tissot 1941 German military
Tissot 1940 UK military
Juwel 1951 Bundeswehr officers watch

Tell me what do you think, honestly.

G.

fishguy

A few more.

Alpina Hammermatic 1945
Delbana Diplomat 1940
Eterna Etrenamatic 1959

G.

flutered

you have expensive tastes, but they are class, no bling.

fishguy

Well I have a Cartier tank and a Cellini in the spa at the moment. These are not that expensive.

G.

blindsider

The Alpina is a very elegant watch - I like that one in particular!

fishguy

That Alpina is a Cal.582 hammer automatic. Very rare. The first automatic movement used by Alpina.

G.

Tea_Bag

I see what you mean by vintage now. Theyre absolutely stunning, but id be far to afraid to actually wear one in case it gets damaged.

bren2002

Why do they look in such good condition?

Do you buy refurbs? If so how do you know the pedigree of the parts? Or do you refurb them yourself?

I would expect 70 year old watches to look a lot less factory finished.

Wibbs

I suppose it's a taste thing. I notice the German vintage collectors tend more towards restoration, whereas elsewhere originality is everything. 70 year old watches tend to look more like this my own Alpina issued to the Kreigsmarine in WW2.

The problem for me with restos/redails is when they differ from the original. I'm not against them. I had to get one for my 1930's Zenith aviator simply because the original radium dial and hands were so "hot" they could have sterilised the Irish rugby team at 20 paces :eek::) I've also restored watches with vintage hands and once a dial from a better but mechanically buggered example.

You do see a lot of inventive resto jobs with "military" watches, so you have to be careful. Fishguys first post examples with maybe the exception of the Tellus wouldn't have looked like that originally. "wrong" hands, dials and crowns. Not military issued either, unless the tissot has a DH number(Dienstuhr Heer/Service Watch Army) on the back. That's army watches, the navy didn't have the DH, but did have an issue number, the luftwaffe was different again. Actual issued Luftwaffe watches would be items like the B-Uhr(what IWC used as inspiration for their Big Pilots watch). Individuals were just as likely to make private purchases in the luftwaffe. Watches like the various chronographs by Glashütte and Hanhart though these seem to be quasi officially sourced too IIRC. Pre war they also procured various large "aviator" style watches, mostly privately, though my aforementioned Zenith was part of a multiple order so again quasi official. The Tissot if issued by UK forces would have the broadarrow stamped into the back. IE Later Omega I think, but you get the gist. The Bundeswehr watch couldn't really be from 51 as the Bundeswehr didn't officially exist until 55(though Peasant might be better regarding the details of that).

Collecting military issued watches is a minefield(no pun). Plus many soldiers/sailors/airmen just used their own privately bought watches. The range of styles you see on the wrists of airmen in particular can be vast. Particularly with the RAF. Lots of small art deco Tank style watches.

I have to say I like the Alpina Hammermatic FG. Niiiice. Good resto job too. Even has the original Alpina crown. :eek: Usually replaced mainly cos it's shíte at actually winding the watch. Maybe yours retained it because it was an auto so wasn't used that much? Alpina made some very nice watches. Undervalued IMHO. Like the Eterna too. Very elegant.

fishguy

Wibbs,

Thanks for your post.

Other than the 2 x crown on the 2 Tissots and on Eterana all the the watches are in the original condition. They have the original cases crowns movements etc.
Most of the watches are steel cased. The Tellus and the Juwel are chrome plated. Steel cases are easy fix as all they need is a polish by my watchmaker. He is really good in that, I might say that He is amongst the best in the EU. Seeing a watch hand to good to be true is often misjudging. Most of the restores are new or old-but-not-the-original stlyle hands. Not on my watches though...
The hands are on the two Tissots (the silver handed is the 1941) and on the Tellus has been restored too. The old lume was removed the surface was refinished. The hand on the 1941 Tissot are made out of stainless steel, so the were polished to original shine. The hands on the Tellus was a lot bigger job. They actually re-chromeplated the original hands. and reapplied the lume. Big job for a set of hands. And cost big money too. You should have seen the Tellus before restoration. Read as I say, I saved that from a bin! It was thrown away from the previous owner in front of me. The restoration cost me over 300 euro without the watchmaking work. The watch has all the original internal parts. It`s a Cortebert 617 movement. It is chronometer grade. Probably 20sec fast a week. The dial was a complete repaint, but on the original surface. So all the numbers and the Tellus signed was the same originally.

The two Tissots has the dials repainted on the original surface. They have the original hands. On the 1940 Tissot the hands were refinished and re-lumed too. The movements are clean as new and very accurate.

The Alpina..well you would not recognized that watch when I purchased it. The seller sold me the movement what was nearly black and said: Hey I have the original case with the dial and hands if you are interested... Hell yeah!

The paint was completely cracked and yellow. The watch was under direct sunlight for years if not decades I say. The movement had mold in it...Sad condition for a fab watch. I get the dials restored in Italy and they had a template for this exact model. Again i was very lucky. Te case is steel, so it was an easy job. The hands are the original and freshly rhodium than gold plated. (The rhodium plating works great under a gold plating as a base layer).

The Juwel is nearly in original condition. I bought it at a swap meting. The case is refinished and chrome plated. The crown is the original and chrome plated. The dials refinished. The dial is in the original condition. AS 1130 caliber. One of the best movements under chronometer specs in the world. Very underrated...
I`m positive about the year but not positive about what the German army was called that year. So is a German army watch and not a Bundeswehr one...

The Eterna is a a true beauty. I bought it from the original owner. Funny story. He over winded the watch 50 years ago when it was nearly new and he could not get a replacement part in the communist Hungary. So he put it aside and later lost all interest in it. He wound the watch so hard that he broke the mainspring and the winding stem too. Must have been really strong guy before as I don`t know how he managed it. The mainspring is replaced with a factory original. the winding stem had to be hand made by my watchmaker. The crown is a signed factory original too.

And last but not least my current favorite the Delbana Diplomat. Huge 38mm case. Looks stunning. Case re ploished, original hands re-goldplated, new factory original mainspring installed, (it`s so strong that you can hear it ticking from 4 meters) crown re chromed.. Cleaned and adjusted. The dial was expensive as I had to back twice as I was not happy with the colors. Looks dead drop stunning now.

Between these watches I spent over 2000 euro on the restoration.

Now back to the debate

Not all of the military watches used in the II WW was issued by government. As today soldiers by their own Marathon or Suunto and they bring it to Irak or A.stan. In 50 years these will be military memorabilia too.

Not all issued watches have DH, KM or broadarrow or whatever sign. It`s foolish to think that out of the probably over 5.000.000 watches issued worldwide between 1939-1945 would have a stamp on them. If it has one it`s great as it raises the value. But the absence doesn`t make it a fake.

Most of the watches made before the 50`s doesn't have signed crowns, there are only a few expensive/high end manufacturers did that at the time.

Not all restored watches are reinvented. As you can see in certain cases I pay over 400 euro to get it restored to the ORIGNAL condition.

in 1945 there was around 800 watch manufacturer in Switzerland. Most of them were making watches to both parties. (see the Tissots as the one with the silver hand is made for German order the other is for UK order) I tell you that as someone might think that it`s impossible that both side used the same

I know people who only collects stamped or serialized IIWW watches, but you have to pay a huge premium for those. I would say approximately 5 percent of the military watches currently in circulation are stamped from that era. Stamped watches usually look more less the same they have the same design. I think they were not overly popular as they were issued out, and not hand picked. Soldiers cold only have a very few different items and watches was on of them. I think we both share the same views here.

Tell me what do you think about my views. Again thank you for taking the time and writing a nice long post. sadly see that most of the watchbuying community are forgetting and getting rid of all the vintage watches. I try to save as much as possible. Remember, these watches are proven. They went trough the war the past 67 years and still running strong. If this is not a sign of quality than I really don`t know what is. Where do you think the Tommy Hilfigers and the Guccies will be in 70 years???

G.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

Not all of the military watches used in the II WW was issued by government. As today soldiers by their own Marathon or Suunto and they bring it to Irak or A.stan. In 50 years these will be military memorabilia too.

Oh certainly, but I suppose it depends on what one defines as a "military watch". I would agree that a lot of servicemen used their own watches. An uncle of mine who joined the US military in WW2 was issued a watch but he didn't like it, gave it away and bought a fancier Longines. So it was a used by a military man watch, but not an issued military watch. The difference? While a military style watch may have been worn by someone in the military, it's just as likely it wasn't, whereas an officially issued piece was. In 50 years time a Suunto is going to be far more likely used by a jogger or hiker or diver than used by an infantryman or woman in the field.

Not all issued watches have DH, KM or broadarrow or whatever sign. It`s foolish to think that out of the probably over 5.000.000 watches issued worldwide between 1939-1945 would have a stamp on them. If it has one it`s great as it raises the value. But the absence doesn`t make it a fake.

Yea outside of small unit purchases, it pretty much does FG. If it claims to be an officially issued watch anyway. Not so much fake, but vague in definition and if put up for sale as a military watch is misrepresentative. You see this a lot on ebay. The cleverer sellers describe them as "Military style" to fudge the issue. Sellers from places like the Ukraine and India just basically lie, sometimes to silly degrees with redails with SS on them and all that guff.

If for example any of those watches came up on say Adverts.ie claiming to be genuine military issued watches I'd flag the ad to the mods over there as it would be at best ignorance on the part of the seller(who may well have been duped themselves), at worst misrepresentative and out to deceive to make more money. I've reported a couple in the past and unlike ebay where many in the hobby report such claims but nothing happens the Adverts guys took the ads down.

This goes double for the DH/KM examples. Though they have a premium they were produced in their near millions so aren't that hard to come by. The premium isn't that high either as you can get something like a Grana DH for 2-300 quid, obviously more for the rarer Zeniths and very rare Longines examples(they can hit near 800 for a good un). KM's are around the 350-400 mark for a good un.

The hands are on the two Tissots (the silver handed is the 1941) and on the Tellus has been restored too. The old lume was removed the surface was refinished. The hand on the 1941 Tissot are made out of stainless steel, so the were polished to original shine.

The problem with those 41 hands and that dial is that they don't match. The dial has luminous numbers, but the hands are non lume hands. It would have either both or not. If they're the orginal hands then the original dial would have had non lumed numbers. The other tissot is on safer ground, though IMHO the redail is a bit inventive regarding the roman numerals

I`m positive about the year but not positive about what the German army was called that year. So is a German army watch and not a Bundeswehr one...

That's the thing though FG the German army didn't exactly exist in 1951. Post war issues with rearming same barely 6 years after old Adolf had tried to take over the world. Plus again I'd say even if the dates were right it would be a watch worn by someone in the army, not a German army watch and certainly not a Bund issued one. The latter stamped all such issued watches. It is though a German made watch as Juwel were a name used by Junghans.

That all said I'm much happier seeing old watches not end up in the bin, repaired and restored ready for another 50, 60, 70 + years of use. Though I would say if you're spending 1000's on restorations FG, you could pick up quite a number of actual issued watches that will hold their value much better. Put it this way you could have an actual DH, a KM and just about get a 1930's Helvetia or Bellum aviator/Luftwaffe watch, all for just under 1000 euro or near enough. For 2000 you most certainly could and add a couple more of a similar background.

fishguy

Wibbs,

Good points there. We have to make differance though between a military watch and an officially issued military watch. if the DH, Kn, or BA mark is on a watch is has been ordered and supplyed by some government so one can know for sure it`s the real deal. (unless of course if the mark is not a result of a counterfeit refinished dial or has been stamped into the watch later...see HMT watches for example). A watch could have been issued out officially and might not have a stamp on it. I saw this in many examples. Even on IWC and Glycine RAF and RAAF watches. And an individual soldier could have always purchased a watch for himself to.

The way I see we can talk about:

1 Stamped issued military watches.

2. Other military watches what were built to be military watches (military standards) in the Era (incabloc, min 9jew movements, luminous hands and dials...)

3. Other watches that might have been used on the field.

If you want to be very very sure pick option 1, but as I said the majority of the watches in the era used by soldier was not stamped imho.

G.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

Wibbs,

Good points there. We have to make differance though between a military watch and an officially issued military watch. if the DH, Kn, or BA mark is on a watch is has been ordered and supplyed by some government so one can know for sure it`s the real deal. (unless of course if the mark is not a result of a counterfeit refinished dial or has been stamped into the watch later...see HMT watches for example).

True. I've seen the odd fake DH come from Vietnam of all places. Pretty easy to spot though.

A watch could have been issued out officially and might not have a stamp on it. I saw this in many examples. Even on IWC and Glycine RAF and RAAF watches. And an individual soldier could have always purchased a watch for himself to.

It might happen for small unit purchases, but I've certainly not seen evidence of that in any large scale way. Defo not with IWC mark II's or IV's. They've all been stamped, or when not stamped were later casebacks added when they were sold off to civilians(ditto for later added civilian dials), even markings rubbed off by people who bought the watches after they left the military. In the case of those IWC models IWC records show that they were sold exclusively to the UK Ministry of Defence.

The way I see we can talk about:

1 Stamped issued military watches.

OK we agree there.

2. Other military watches what were built to be military watches (military standards) in the Era (incabloc, min 9jew movements, luminous hands and dials...)

I would say watches that were military in style to appeal to both civilian and military personnel or simply "sports" watches. That was a big market back then and often added a "Military" connection as advertising. A modern example might be the Traser watch brand who started off with licensed copies/homages of US mil spec watches and just like Traser, though they are used by some military personnel, they're not military issued watches(though have actually much better movements and finish than the real deal).

3. Other watches that might have been used on the field.

which I'd put many of number 2 in this category.

If you want to be very very sure pick option 1, but as I said the majority of the watches in the era used by soldier was not stamped imho.

I would seriously disagree with the majority part. Among more wealthy officers and enlisted men sure, but one of the reasons why the various governments produced military watch orders in the first place was that a large proportion of the young enlisted men wouldn't have a watch, or if they had, it would be totally unsuitable(even then the DH spec wasn't that great. Good midline movements, but not very water resistant at all). Probably the single biggest reason issued watches today are very rarely procured is the average Joe or Jane soldier can buy their own watch in the PX and most of them would be suitable for military use. That and cost. Imagine the UK or US asking IWC/JLC/Rolex to build them watches for troops en masse. :eek:

The German services produced many many thousands of DH watches for their infantry. Loads of companies were involved; Titus, Aipina, Doxa, Silvana, Mulco, Minerva, Record, Glycine, Arsa, Buren, Dogma, Zenith, Wagner, Longines, Helvetia, Grana to name but a few. No Tissot I can find tho. The lowest number and rarest of these the Longines? Still over 4000 watches produced.

The US WWW wristwatches were produced in their 100's of 1000's for the citizen soldiers/farmboys etc who had no watches of their own.


I'd break it down this way;

1)Military issued.

2)Military style(may or may not have been used in the field).

3)Other.

If number 2 is claiming to be a number 1 I call misrepresentation. It can get odd sometimes. IE I have one of these. A Heuer Bund actually issued to the German forces from the 60's to the 90's(the Norwegians had them too IIRC) and not available to the general public until at least the late 70's as a special order and not until the mid 90's in any numbers. Now mine is an early serial number. Earliest I've seen so a 60's one. All orginal dial, case hands(new bezel). However it does not have the Bund reg code stamped in the caseback and never did. This actually makes it rarer than the ones that do which is all of them from what I've seen*, but I couldn't claim it as an issued watch if I wanted to be accurate and honest.

I'd also say again if you want to be very very pure it makes more sense to me anyway to look for actual issued watches for around 2-300 euro, than look at damaged/redialed/mil "style" watches costing 150-200 euro or sometimes even more than the "real thing". Especially if restoration costs are running into four figures.





*and it makes you wonder how it was bought in the first place. Maybe a Heuer worker? A bit odd. Heuer's records from that time seem to be useless though they're very helpful if you ask. Serial numbers on movements if present dont follow any real pattern.

fishguy

Wibbs,

That Hauer is a nice watch. I used to have a Longines 1010 what is a Hauer Montreal made fro the Israeli Defence Forces (Air force) No number either. But since the watch was only made by Longines for the IDF as a special order it wasn`t necessary to have one.

About the dispute. If I`m correct than a military watch is a watch what has been issued in your book?

I have to disagree with that as a military watch in my book a watch what was built for essentially military use, by military specifications, maybe for military order...

But I totally agree with you if a watch has no stamp it can be misleading to call it a issued military watch.

The problem with purchasing stamped watches is the price usually, but I`m always after them. Mostly just can`t justify the price...

G.

peasant

fishguy wrote: »

The Juwel ...AS 1130 caliber.

The AS 1130 is often called the "Wehrmachtskaliber" in German watch circles ...simply because it was used in many Wehrmacht (= the German WWII army) issued watches. It was also highly thought of and many makers continued to use it (and also advertise that fact) well into the 60's.

That might be an explanation how your Jewel watch came to be thought of as an army watch (which it clearly isn't ...simply because there was no German army in 1951) ...lost in translation, so to speak.

Beautiful watch all the same.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

Wibbs,

That Hauer is a nice watch. I used to have a Longines 1010 what is a Hauer Montreal made fro the Israeli Defence Forces (Air force) No number either. But since the watch was only made by Longines for the IDF as a special order it wasn`t necessary to have one.

Thanks FG the Heuer is or was nice. Got knocked down by a car months ago. I was fine, but the Heuer broke the crown stem and threw the hands off center. When I save up the beer tokens I'll get it fixed.

This one? Yea a rebranded Heuer for graduation presents for the Israeli airforce in the 80's(IIRC). An odd one indeed, given it's really a Heuer, though the Israelis had a long standing relationship with Longines so maybe that's why? The ultimate and coolest one being this. 15-20,000 euro though :eek:

About the dispute. If I`m correct than a military watch is a watch what has been issued in your book?

I have to disagree with that as a military watch in my book a watch what was built for essentially military use, by military specifications, maybe for military order...

Essentially yes, but if built for military use, to military specs(not always the best specs BTW, especially for the US) and officially ordered by the military then OK, you're talking a military watch. The "maybe" is the thing for me.

However a "sport" or homage watch designed to emulate military watches as an advertising thing, even if worn by some in the military doesn't quite fit the mark for me.

The problem with purchasing stamped watches is the price usually, but I`m always after them. Mostly just can`t justify the price...

That's the thing FG they're not that expensive, especially considering how much you've spent in restorations. As you said "in certain cases I pay over 400 euro to get it restored to the ORIGNAL condition". I'd question the ORIGINAL part, but never mind that, for 400 euro you could easily find an issued Alpina KM, or any number of issued DH's(except for the more well known names, though you can get lucky there). So long as you avoid the Ukraine where it's damn near a rule they're faked*, misrepresented etc. Here's a mimo on ebay auction nearly ended and I reckon you'd snipe that if you fired 250 euro at them at the last minute. Here's a Sylvana KM from a German seller for just over 300euro buy it now price(though the lack of caseback number dubious). A Glycine from the same guy for just over 200(though one of the hands is wrong). That's just today and not digging very deep and only on ebay. Spend a week looking and 3-400 would get you the "real deal". Though I would advise two things for folks reading, 1) Don't restore it if at all possible. Kills the value, unless like FG's lucky rescues it's a complete wreck in the first place. I've yet to see a plating job that looks original, the colour's wrong, too "silver". 2) these watches are small, generally 30mm so well fed and muscled guys need not apply. Leave them to scrawny bastards like me

BTW FG I'm not having a go at you or your watches. Not at all, you've some real beauties(love the Delbana) and love the fact you've saved some nice watches from the bin. Kudos. I'm just trying to give out information in case someone is reading and wanted to collect "real" military issued watches and weren't sure what way to go. Its too easy to get burned on ebay in particular and pay waaaay over the odds for dubious watches.




*ASIDE I'd generally avoid any of the former Soviet nations as many if not most of those watches were taken as war booty in '45, often from soldiers shot just for their watches. My dad was in Germany at wars end and saw this with his own eyes. Many of the Russian troops would be walking around with both arms covered in looted watches. This famous image later doctored to remove the evidence of looting shows one such chap. They were mesmerised by them. Apparently hey'd walk up to Germans shouting "Uri! Uri!!"(from the German word for watch Uhr or Uhren) looking for them. Some didn't know how they worked so would throw them away when the spring ran down and just steal another one. I fully understand why so many Soviet troops went completely batshít on their former enemies as they had suffered greatly(the French and Yanks could be nearly as bad, the Brits the least but still the mad looting, raping and killing went on with all sides), I just wouldn't be personally morally happy with having one myself, just as I might be dubious buying say a Soviet watch from a German site for the same reasons. Any of the WW2 German watches I have I got from Germans and one gifted to my dad by a German family he got friendly with at the time.

carbon nanotube

fishguy wrote: »

Hi,

Just wanted to share a few of the newcomers. All of them is fully restored.


Tellus 1940 Luftwaffe Pilots watch
Tissot 1941 German military
Tissot 1940 UK military
Juwel 1951 Bundeswehr officers watch

Tell me what do you think, honestly.

G.

very nice timepieces, no idea where you got them from.

seem expensive.

fishguy

Wiibbs,

First, I don`t think that you have a rant on my watches. I started a discussion and we were having a debate on some principals that we disagree. I value your input (and everyone else`s input of course) as I said I think there is not enough talk about these watches. No talk and no interest generally. People call these timepieces grampa watches.. . I`m very happy that you take the time and wrote down your thoughts. Much appreciated.

I know the the sad stories behind the watches. I have a few friends who won`t even go near any watch coming from Russia for the very same reason. I purchase 90%+ of my watches in Hungary. It`s very hard to tell is there was a similar tragedy behind a watch as the country was originally an axle country but later was occupied by the muskas too. Personally I save (also buy and sell) watches and not politics. I`m sorry for all who died but it was long time ago (for me anyway). I don`t like to be bounded by historical or political bonds.


G.

fishguy

Carbon,

I don`t consider them expensive, given the condition they are in. The I sold the Tissot with the silver hands not so long ago for about 300 with one year warranty. The Tellus is not for sale at the moment. The other Tissot and the Juwel is. They will go around 350 and 120 respectively. I think they are fair prices since I give 1 year warranty on any restored watch I sell. They are perfectly suitable from day to day wearing, as they are accurate watches. In fact most of them are probably more accurate than any non cronometer watch you can buy nowdays, specially cheap automatics.

G.

flutered

i have read that the german made military watches from that era were not marked as the the authoritys were always checking the production lines, the ones that were marked are from outside germany, when checked the case backs were stamped is this correct?.

fishguy

I`m not too sure. But what you say is perfectly logical, as watch manufacturing was critical production therefore it was managed by the army probably. About watches made outside Germany I don't know. If a watch manufacturer produces 100.000 of the same watch for military use but only 15.000 is bought by the Nazis, would that make the rest 85.000 inferior as they have no DH or kn stamps? As I said in earlier posts stamping is a solid proof that the watch was officially issued but the absence of a stamp is not a clear indication either that it wasn`t. It`s hard to tell after so many years...

G.

blindsider

fishguy wrote: »

Carbon,

I don`t consider them expensive, given the condition they are in. The I sold the Tissot with the silver hands not so long ago for about 300 with one year warranty. The Tellus is not for sale at the moment. The other Tissot and the Juwel is. They will go around 350 and 120 respectively. I think they are fair prices since I give 1 year warranty on any restored watch I sell. They are perfectly suitable from day to day wearing, as they are accurate watches. In fact most of them are probably more accurate than any non cronometer watch you can buy nowdays, specially cheap automatics.

G.

For a novice like me, this is a really interesting conversation...it's great to learn a little about vintage watches.

FG - as a matter of interest, what do you think the Alpina might be worth?

fishguy

blindsider,

How much a watch it`s hard to tell, as it`s always based on that how much one is actually willing to pay for it. I`m sure they worth more than the price I`m asking as my asking price is just enough cover the price of the restoration and the original price I payed for the watch. But if you are interested I`m expecting 350 for the Alpina. It`s very rare and also comes with one year warranty.

G.

blindsider

Thanks FG - I'll have to start saving my pocket-money :-))

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

About watches made outside Germany I don't know. If a watch manufacturer produces 100.000 of the same watch for military use but only 15.000 is bought by the Nazis, would that make the rest 85.000 inferior as they have no DH or kn stamps? As I said in earlier posts stamping is a solid proof that the watch was officially issued but the absence of a stamp is not a clear indication either that it wasn`t. It`s hard to tell after so many years...

Not quite. The DH was a ministry specification, fairly precise one too, that the manufacturers then followed pretty closely as they were directly contracted to do so. Shockproof, dust and somewhat waterproof*, decent number of jewels, 30mm, stainless steel caseback(some screwback, though the German makers sometimes used snapbacks)most, but not all of the cases are nickel plated as steel was considered to valuable for the war effort, black dial(white in the case of Navy), radium figures and hands, subsecond dial and fixed lugs. I've never seen any examples of original (non "restored") examples following that spec that weren't stamped in some way.

what flutered said is bang on, the German makers didn't have to use the D stamp because as F said they were inspected locally.

One spec that's consistent is the presence of fixed lugs. Any of yours fixed lug? I'd be quite surprised if any were. Now if you reckon 100k of the same watch are produced and 15k are "official" how come it's so hard to find one of the 85K with the exact same spec?

Now this isn't to say that non spec watches weren't ordered by the German military especially towards the end of the war(and most certainly were before the war), but these are very hard to trace these days. So... given how common the DH etc watches are(don't believe ebay seller type hype that they're rare) and given how relatively cheap they are I would still strongly advise anyone wanting to get into collecting these watches would be better off getting one of the more traceable "solid proof" examples.





*They're not even close to water resistant in todays terms, not even while new(non sealed crown/glass). More moisture/splash resistant. Including the navy spec believe it or not.

fishguy

Wibbs,

Both of the Tissots are fixed lugs. The Tellus was fixed too but I had to convert it to non fixed as on of the lug was completely rusted and i wasn't able to get it saved.

I have a DH numbered 36mm Doxa with non fixed lugs...

I think the lugs are just like everything around these watches, not necessarily consistent so therefore can`t be called as clear identifiers.

As you stated earlier the only clear identifier is the DH KN or BA stamp (of course f it`s not a fake stamp) as than we know it`s a military ordered watch.

G.

flutered

i two, one dh stamped, which has the standard lugs, the other is quite different, it is german made,rectangular shape, the lugs war ribbed, also flexible, what is called in the u.s. a drivers watch, interestenly, the movement has the makers name and the information hand inscribed, i do not know if this is rare or not, perhaps you guys can tell.

flutered

fishguy wrote: »

blindsider,

How much a watch it`s hard to tell, as it`s always based on that how much one is actually willing to pay for it. I`m sure they worth more than the price I`m asking as my asking price is just enough cover the price of the restoration and the original price I payed for the watch. But if you are interested I`m expecting 350 for the Alpina. It`s very rare and also comes with one year warranty.

G.

itsquite cheap, is any one is interested, i have seen a zentra with the chrome in bad shape advertised on one of the uk sites for stg 450 plus card and sihipping on top of that.

fishguy

flutered,

Can you post a picture of your watches?

About the price. If I sell them I sell them cheap as I want people to have these watches and not just want them... It`s a great pleasure to see that I saved something from the bin and a few weeks later it`s on someones wrist...ticking for another 60+ years.

G.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

I have a DH numbered 36mm Doxa with non fixed lugs...

I think the lugs are just like everything around these watches, not necessarily consistent so therefore can`t be called as clear identifiers.

If it's not fixed lugs, then either springbars were fitted later or it's not "correct".

flutered wrote: »

the other is quite different, it is german made,rectangular shape, the lugs war ribbed, also flexible, what is called in the u.s. a drivers watch, interestenly, the movement has the makers name and the information hand inscribed, i do not know if this is rare or not, perhaps you guys can tell.

That sounds odd. Tank shaped DH?

flutered wrote: »

itsquite cheap, is any one is interested, i have seen a zentra with the chrome in bad shape advertised on one of the uk sites for stg 450 plus card and sihipping on top of that.

I'd agree it's a bit high for a Zentra alright. If it's in "untouched condition" that may be why, but still high. The chrome tends to wear very rapidly on these watches. Personally I don't mind as it adds to the history(and maintains the value), I'm not personally keen on restoring the plating. I've never seen an example where it wasn't immediately obvious, plus kills the value for most perspective buyers.

Wibbs

For the DH watches specifically here's a good site with a list and pics of many of the models http://www.time514.com/GermanX.htm and here's a page from the master of this kinda stuff Konrad Knirim http://www.knirim.de/a006mond.htm A major collector, he produces gorgeous books on the subject of German and UK Military watches. One day when I feel like treating myself...

flutered

as requested, some pics of my two ww2 survivors.

Wibbs

Interesting Zentra F. The numbers on ths caseback look like standard serial numbers kinda thing. The hand engraving as you said is well weird. Never saw that before, but they are correct description wise. Love the DH. Serial numbers look right. Hands later replacements. I may have the right ones or very close to, in my hands collection. I'll have a look over the weekend. If I do I could post them to you F, you're welcome to them.

flutered

thanks wibbs, appreciated, i forgot to take a pic of the movement, it is an as 1130 i think, all the jewels are capped, beautifuly striped, it looks a slean as it left the factory,

Wibbs

Funny the hands are very like those fitted to a few different Longines watches of the 50's. There's no name I can make out on the dial, could it be...?

flutered

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny the hands are very like those fitted to a few different Longines watches of the 50's. There's no name I can make out on the dial, could it be...?

come on wibbs lets have it

Wibbs

Could it be a Longines DH instead of a 1130 movement? *hops from foot to foot*

flutered

unfortunatly no, the hands could be longines, the face of any of the dh watches that i have seen are black, the movement is stamped as etc. etc. there is one for sale in the uk, on a private site, the dial is black, the brand is zentra, the price is unbelieveabley astronomical.

fishguy

flutered,

I`m not sure if that DH stamp is genuine. looks like an `aftermarket` modification. The Zentra is not DH and the the bridge is not the original one. The hand inscribing is not Zentra for sure. Zentra had the tightest quality control amongst mass produced watches at the time.

See my picture and you will understand why...

This is one of my other restores, expecting 400 for it. From the 1930`s one of the first inclablocks ever made. Extremly rare. It has a two done dial. The watch was E100 restore was E300.


G.

flutered

fg, thanks for the info, i have no idea as to how correct they are, included in hand inscription is the name of a watch company, this is why i posted about them to see what people had to say, as i know nothing about them thanks for your imput.

fishguy

You see Zentra watches were amongst the best watches in the 30`s and 40`s in the world. They were the top watch producers in Germany at the time. Personally I woudl think they would never let a watch with hand written details hit the market...

G.

flutered

this watch was never made for the public market, it was ordered for a specific purpose, one could also say that the lugs which are movable and decorated were never intended for the public, btw i am just argueing for the sake of trying to answer your query. tomorrow hopefully i will ask the folks on the mwf their opinion, as i have alreadt said the only thing that i know about watches is they have cost me many scheckils.

flutered

hi fg, i have foned the repair shop to ask their opinion on the zentra, thet claim that it has no after market parts, that the bridge is the correct one, the engraveing was done after the movement was finished, as for the dh on the back of the round faced one, they say that the dh was always applied after quality control hadb examined the watch.

fishguy

flutered,

I`m really enjoying this conversation with you and Wibbs!

With the zentra what happened I think the original bridge was replaced many years ago. The watchmaker who replaced the bridge might have inscribed the text what was on the original bridge. It`s hard to judge but it seems to me that the writing was scratched in the bridge, and this it`s the biggest clue as if the bridge would be an original zentra it would have been stamped into the bridge or engraved. I`m very sure it`s not a custom made bridge by the factory as the quality of the bridge is not the best no silver gold or chrome plating, cote de geneve.... The nice zentra movements have gold filled writing on them too...

G.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

I`m not sure if that DH stamp is genuine. looks like an `aftermarket` modification.

They always were and it looks fine to me. If fake it's a good one(punched not engraved, right font etc).

Zentra had the tightest quality control amongst mass produced watches at the time.

Links please cos I'd love to see that one. Compared to Omega, Longines, Hamilton, Rolex? Are you serious? ZentRa were a cheap enough, but ok quality for your money brand in Germany. They were a brand not unlike H Samuels in that they were a bunch of shops.. The outlets/shops were themselves called ZentRa and were all over Germany, hence they're very common even though not an export brand. They bought in external movements from various producers, some good, some so so. Nothing wrong with that, few don't, especially today, but to suggest they had the tightest quality control compared to other even bigger mass produced, mostly in house movements is a bold claim indeed and one I wouldn't bet on..

You see Zentra watches were amongst the best watches in the 30`s and 40`s in the world.

No, they really weren't. Not even on the radar. The average mass produced in higher numbers worldwide Omega, or Greuen or Hamilton or Longines from the 1930's would blow the vast majority of ZentRa watches watches out of the water quality wise. The mid range models from those makers would be higher again.

fishguy

Wibbs,

Welcome back.

Sorry I need to correct myself here Zentra was one of the bast German maker of it`s time. And please don`t mix here the Zentras from the 50` and the 60`s. This is a strictly pre 1945 statement

And yes Zentra was amongst the best watches in the world In Germany Austria Hungary Zentra was a very big name on par with Longines and Zenith... and way better than Gruen. In the late 40`s Zentra was the quality standard of watches in these countries. I say they were easily in the top 15 manufacturers in the late 30`s in Europe.

G.

Wibbs

fishguy wrote: »

Sorry I need to correct myself here Zentra was one of the bast German maker of it`s time. And please don`t mix here the Zentras from the 50` and the 60`s. This is a strictly pre 1945 statement

ZentRa was a coop rather than a watch company founded in Berlin in the late 20's. Kinda like a franchise. Membership grew and by the mid 30's their shops were all over Germany. This big buying power allowed them to buy in french, german and swiss ebauche movements(the Swiss in general being the best) at lower cost and offer serviceable watches at affordable prices.

And yes Zentra was amongst the best watches in the world

No I'm sorry they weren't. Not even close

In Germany Austria Hungary Zentra was a very big name on par with Longines and Zenith... and way better than Gruen.

It was a big name because it was everywhere. It would be like suggesting McDonalds is the better Restaurants than Michellin star Restaurants in New York. Their top quality was around low end for Longines and Zenith, and couldn't compete at the higher qualities of those marques and others. The price differences at the time show this.

In the late 40`s Zentra was the quality standard of watches in these countries. I say they were easily in the top 15 manufacturers in the late 30`s in Europe.

They were a name, a big one in those territories, but used off the shelf movements, never developed their own, unlike Zenith, Longines, Gruen etc. One good example of their quality is how hard it is to find one with an original dial in great condition, while any number of those other names can be found with dials in good condition to this day. Even when you find an original dial as a part they're very cheap

Wibbs

PS your restoration is nice. Good to see one look similar to how it would have back in the day. Nice watches, bit small for todays tastes(though I like a smaller watch, especially in hot weather).

PPS I would also agree that in particular the German movements of those times, while basic enough in finishing etc are very good timekeepers and very robust with it.

flutered

fishguy wrote: »

flutered,

I`m really enjoying this conversation with you and Wibbs!

With the zentra what happened I think the original bridge was replaced many years ago. The watchmaker who replaced the bridge might have inscribed the text what was on the original bridge. It`s hard to judge but it seems to me that the writing was scratched in the bridge, and this it`s the biggest clue as if the bridge would be an original zentra it would have been stamped into the bridge or engraved. I`m very sure it`s not a custom made bridge by the factory as the quality of the bridge is not the best no silver gold or chrome plating, cote de geneve.... The nice zentra movements have gold filled writing on them too...

G.

hi fg the companys name is not scratched, it is engraved, as like engraved hand writing. when i get around to it i will get the guys over in mwf, or even wus, i will not comment any more until then.

flutered

i attended an antique fair yesterday, here are pics of my purchase, the lighting was poor and i did not have my specs, i paid 100 euro fro this, in the light of day the crown has is not marked nor is the case back, the dial is darker than i tought, it is a boys size, but how is ever i did not do too bad methinks,

Wibbs

Cant go far wrong with 100 quid for an Omega to be fair F. Nice one.