What about altar girls? - Cardinal Arinze

Onesimus

I can understand now why altar girls simply should not be allowed on the altar to serve after hearing this. My understanding being that the altar girls were introduced by the progressivists who believe that women can be priests. And it was a sort of (embarrassing for them ) ''nudge'' from their part in order to attempt such an introduction. Listen to the short 2 min video and you will understand what I am saying. I am also going to include a poll in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

Onesimus

I am interested in the opinion of those who said ''Yes''. Why do you believe it is ok for altar girls to serve?

tommy2bad

Apart from tradition what reason is their not to have alter girls?
That it somehow keeps boys from the path to priesthood? that females shouldn't be allowed behind the alter rails?
We change and grow in the light of what we experience and with the guidance of the Holy spirit.

From the good cardinal himself!
“The Catholic faith never changes. But the language and mode of manifesting this one faith can change according to peoples, times and places.”

Why not women priests anyway? would it be a bad thing if thats what came to pass?
Or is their something special about priesthood that requires danggly bits.

I seriously don't think displaced boys serving mass is the cause of a drop in vocations. If thats all it was more masses would redress the imbalance.

skooterblue2

This guy is a regressive thinker. Many African I have met are very much this way. Men on one side and women on the other.

My Aunt was out on the mission in Zambia. They were on a hundred year mission, obviously not all that started the mission would continue. She was there from the 1950's to the Early 1980's. The plan was to build a hospital and a nurse training school. To have a church and a seminary. To have a convent and a teacher training school. They left approximately 1985, handing it over to the local church and came back ten years later. Everything was in ruins and falling down. The best bit was they celebrating animal sacrifices as part of the "Catholic" mass.

The way forward is equality, empowerment of the laymen and mutual respect. This guy is a throw back to the dark ages and juju.

angeleyes

It beggars belief - stating that many alter boys went on to become priests, lots of other young lads didn't . I don't get that logic.

And.... if as this Cardinal states that if young boys who were alter boys wanted to become priests because of their experiences why can it not so that girls would answer the call to become nuns.

MagicMarker

Onesimus wrote: »

I am interested in the opinion of those who said ''Yes''. Why do you believe it is ok for altar girls to serve?

Because discrimination is bad?

Sulla Felix

Onesimus wrote: »

I am interested in the opinion of those who said ''Yes''. Why do you believe it is ok for altar girls to serve?

Because contrary to the established thinking of bygone eras of Christianity, most people today don't believe females to be in some way dirty or more inherently sinful than males.
Mad, innit?

Onesimus

MagicMarker wrote: »

Because discrimination is bad?

It has nothing to do with discrimination as the following response quite clearly demonstrates: Female altar servers

Onesimus

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Because contrary to the established thinking of bygone eras of Christianity, most people today don't believe females to be in some way dirty or more inherently sinful than males.
Mad, innit?

I'd be interested in seeing where the Catholic Church teaches that females are ''more sinful than males'' and ''dirty''.

I'll expect an answer from you on the twelfth of......um.....Never?

MagicMarker

Onesimus wrote: »

It has nothing to do with discrimination as the following response quite clearly demonstrates: Female altar servers

Well, from the little that I read of that it's even more clear that it's discrimination.

Sulla Felix

Onesimus wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing where the Catholic Church teaches that females are ''more sinful than males'' and ''dirty''.

I'll expect an answer from you on the twelfth of......um.....Never?

Codex Juris Canonici, 1917.

eyescreamcone

I believe women can do any job in the world.
Prime Minister
Firefighter
Soldier

I know some strong women.
My mother, my wife, my sister.
All educated and professional.

Any group/sect/cult MAY exclude women from important positions within this group just for being female.

This however, IS SEXIST and should not be encouraged or promoted in 2012.

The RCC by continuing to promote their sexist programme do nothing to dispel their anti-women reputation.

bonniebede

Women and men are different, i guess most of you have noticed.

god built this difference into the way he created us - which he did not have to do.

That raises some questions. Why did God create us different ubt equal?

The modern answer is that the difference is only biological (dangly bits as someone delicately phrased it;)) therefore anything which does not relate directly to those biological functions , like childbirth, should make no difference. And even those biological functions should be made to be as similar as possible, hence contraception makes a womans body function biologically like a male, ie able to have sex without getting pregnant.

This modern approach ignores a number of things. One the biology is treated in a reductionist way , our biology also has some affect on our brains, influencing thought patterns and emotional patterns.

Being materialist, it also denies that we have souls.

Now for the the theologically minded among us, we have to also answer the following questions, why did God create us sexually differentiated? What does it mean? What if any difference does it make?

Are we male and female in our spiritual nature as well as our physical nature? do we have male and female souls?

in the sacramental system, inward spiritual things are expressed by outward material things, for example the outward water of baptism signifies the inward action of the holy spirit (and brings it about)

In the sacramental action of the Mass, what if anything is signified by the outward physical symbolism of maleness and femaleness?


Given that this question is already considered important because of the relationship of Christ to his bride the Church which is why jesus took on human nature in the male form, and why priests are male, what else in the liturgy might be part of reflecting this male/female symbolism?

Our modern culture has two wrong starting points for understanding this question, 1) that sexual difference is only biological 2) that priesthood is only functional and not liturgical and symbolical.

Also technically speaking, altar servers as we have them are only temporary replacements for the role of acolyte, which is a role never exercised in Ireland, except for a few seminarians. THe role of acolyte is still an adult, pernmanently instituted role, and for men only.

for me the way forward would be to revive this role.

skooterblue2

We would all want to be very careful here. When not if, the Catholic Church collapses a new religion may come to Ireland. As we all know nature abhors a vacuum. They will not have to apply for planning permission for buildings as they will be able to buy the vacant churches. The Catholic church will be happy to sell as they will have to maintain them (Protected buildings and all) to a high standard.

We could end up with a far worse set up than the Roman Catholic church.

emuhead

skooterblue2 wrote: »

We would all want to be very careful here. When not if, the Catholic Church collapses a new religion may come to Ireland. As we all know nature abhors a vacuum. They will not have to apply for planning permission for buildings as they will be able to buy the vacant churches. The Catholic church will be happy to sell as they will have to maintain them (Protected buildings and all) to a high standard.

We could end up with a far worse set up than the Roman Catholic church.

I've started posting in this forum recently and it saddens me to see the bile directed at Christianity and the Catholic Church. We live in a democracy and if a new church wants to set up, I don't see why that is such a problem.

I don't agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church so I formally defected and am a member of a different Christian denomination. I have got very good advice from Catholic friends on faith matters. I have dealings with multidenominational groups and we all manage to work together without arguing, putting people down or having the last word.

Anyway, coming back to the original question, I think having female altar servers is not going to subvert the status quo (male only priesthood).

skooterblue2

I am referring to a religion ( that is already established) that will be coming in and I know it is unPC of me to say it. But any church that wants to rewrite the laws of the land with its own laws. Any church that wants to replace the courts of the land with its own brand of justices that verges from the Commonwealth/European model.

Yes we do live in a democracy but tolerance "is granting others the rights we grant ourselves". Examples of this would be found in East London.

On the Original post of Alter servers, we had them in our parish but no longer after an abuse case. It seemed easier just not to have them and then there were issues with our current Bishop in the parish.

emuhead

I'm not clear on what religion you are talking about (you never identified at any point) and I don't want to drag this thread any more off topic.

Sorry to hear about what happened in your parish.

I don't have anything more to contribute on the original topic so I'm out

/leaves thread

PDN

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am referring to a religion ( that is already established) that will be coming in and I know it is unPC of me to say it. But any church that wants to rewrite the laws of the land with its own laws. Any church that wants to replace the courts of the land with its own brand of justices that verges from the Commonwealth/European model.

Yes we do live in a democracy but tolerance "is granting others the rights we grant ourselves". Examples of this would be found in East London.

I would suggest you read Philip Jenkinson's excellent 'God's Continent' for another perspective. But further discussion of Islamphobia probably belongs in another thread.