Latin Mass

If tridentine mass and some pre-vatican ii traditions were brought back into use would mass attendance and vocations rise again, but obviously not to the what it was like in the 1950's.

it probably would bring back some people who were born pre 1960's, as a reminiscent.

but a German Trappist abbey, Marianwald, within one year using the pre-vatican missal and breviary it got 3 new postulants.

Snappy Smurf

I think some older people and some young people would like it. Some middle-aged people would also like it. It may cause an initial increase due to novelty, with some falling away after the novelty effect, but over time, the TLM, coupled with good sermons, would lead to more people going to Mass, I think.

lmaopml

Msecc27 wrote: »

If tridentine mass and some pre-vatican ii traditions were brought back into use would mass attendance and vocations rise again, but obviously not to the what it was like in the 1950's.

it probably would bring back some people who were born pre 1960's, as a reminiscent.

but a German Trappist abbey, Marianwald, within one year using the pre-vatican missal and breviary it got 3 new postulants.

I've only begun to learn about the beauty of the old liturgy - but one must understand that I was brought up with the new one - I think it's important to trust Christ, his providence, and as Catholics his Church too - don't despair. Just be kind.

Festus

I agree, the Church needs a return to the "bells and smells", or at least present it as a Sunday option in every parish. To me the Mass lost much of its mystery and ritual when it went to the vernacular.
Also when travelling being able to attend a Mass in a language understood by all would be fantastic. I'm not suggesting we all should become latin scholars just sufficient to understand the Mass and with frequent attendence that should'nt be too difficult.

Snappy Smurf

lmaopml wrote: »

I've only begun to learn about the beauty of the old liturgy - but one must understand that I was brought up with the new one - I think it's important to trust Christ, his providence, and as Catholics his Church too - don't despair. Just be kind.

Cruel to be kind, in the right measure
Cruel to be kind, it's a very good sign
Cruel to be kind, means that I love you
Baby, you gotta bring back the Latin Mass!

Onesimus

I don't know why you are all cryin for a Latin Mass.

Michelle Arnold over on CAF said that the local Bishop under Canon Law MUST provide a Latin Mass in his diocese if someone asks him to do so.

Snappy Smurf

Onesimus wrote: »

I don't know why you are all cryin for a Latin Mass.

Michelle Arnold over on CAF said that the local Bishop under Canon Law MUST provide a Latin Mass in his diocese if someone asks him to do so.

Is that right? Linky?

vicwatson

If tridentine mass and some pre-vatican ii traditions were brought back into use would mass attendance and vocations rise again, but obviously not to the what it was like in the 1950's.

No, I assume you forgot one of these - ?

skooterblue2

Snappy boy, have you actually gone to one of the Masses. I am sure you gone to one of these things?

The only people who have gone to these must be in their 90's the rest either have Alzheimer's or are in the cemetery. I would say you stand a better chance of digging up a few corpses to fill a congregation for latin mass than finding a willing compos ones.

doolox

Pope John 23rd used the phrase "opening the windows" to describe the decision to change to native language masses in the Roman Catholic Church.

It changed the whole tone of mass from an incomprehensible mumbo jumbo more akin to the shamanistic mumbles of a witch doctor into the understandable ceremony we have today.

It gave more power to the people as priests were no longer the exclusive holders of the truth...lay people could now understand and participate.

georgieporgy

I grew up in th 50's and remember it well. Everybody understood the Latin because they followed along in their missals which had a line by line translation. You ended up with many folk who had a rather good grasp of latin!
With the introduction of the Novus Ordo, Latin was meant to be retained. The only linguistic changes were supposed to be the scriptural readings. these were to be in the vernacular so that hearers could understand them. Unfortunately those who wanted change got carried away with themselves.

I've been to Novus Ordo masses said in latin and they are fine.
As for bringing back the Tridentine rite, it's fine for anyone who wants it, but it doesn't appeal to me. There were bad/lazy priests in the good old days too and the 'old' mass was often said badly and rushed through by some.

The problem is not the liturgy. It's the ignorance of the population at large. They have found something better than Truth :pac:

skooterblue2

Snappy Smurf wrote: »

I think some older people and some young people would like it. Some middle-aged people would also like it. It may cause an initial increase due to novelty, with some falling away after the novelty effect, but over time, the TLM, coupled with good sermons, would lead to more people going to Mass, I think.

If you could replace "some" with "the majority of" in your post Slappy you could be onto something. :rolleyes:

Latin like Irish only applies to very small section of the populations and those that do only use it briefly. Like Doctors, lawyers botanists and the odd few out there on the far periphery scientists.... :P

skooterblue2

Society has moved on but the church hasnt. Well it made a very good attempt by introducing the mass in the native tongue. Latin and Greek have fallen by the wayside in favour of Modern skills.

IT, science, engineering, modern languages have all replaced Greek and Latin in the work place as demonstrations of education. I have never come across a job that requires latin or greek in the modern workplace compared with the ECDL. The Metric has replaced the Imperial system. I dont hear anyone yearning for the good old days of pound shillings and pence

Manach

The Latin phrases add a sense of occasion and evoke a sense of otherness that contrasts to the everyday life.

pwurple

skooterblue2 wrote: »

IT, science, engineering, modern languages have all replaced Greek and Latin in the work place as demonstrations of education. I have never come across a job that requires latin or greek in the modern workplace compared with the ECDL. The Metric has replaced the Imperial system. I dont hear anyone yearning for the good old days of pound shillings and pence

Really? Never? Try the legal profession, politics, chemistry, biology, physics, maths, every single branch of medicine, botany, pharmacy, horticulture... ad infinitum.

Isn't every bone in the human body a latin word? The scientific nomaclature of every plant and piece of life around you is in latin. How many mathematic terms are greek? Have you ever encountered Pi for example?

Latin is the closest thing to a mathematical language, a closed vocabulary, based on explicit rules. It is ideal for use across science communities universally and continues to be used there.

pwurple

Manach wrote: »

The Latin phrases add a sense of occasion and evoke a sense of otherness that contrasts to the everyday life.

Indeed. I've always liked it...

Quid quid latinus dictum sit altum videteur. (Everything in latin sounds profound.)

Was it Vatican II that the latin mass began to be phased out? So the 70's?

doctoremma

pwurple wrote: »

Really? Never? Try the legal profession, politics, chemistry, biology, physics, maths, every single branch of medicine, botany, pharmacy, horticulture... ad infinitum.

Isn't every bone in the human body a latin word? The scientific nomaclature of every plant and piece of life around you is in latin. How many mathematic terms are greek? Have you ever encountered Pi for example?

Latin is the closest thing to a mathematical language, a closed vocabulary, based on explicit rules. It is ideal for use across science communities universally and continues to be used there.

I'd pull biology off that list. While I might know a fair few names and short phrases, I certainly haven't gleaned anything that would allow me to claim any knowledge of Latin as a language.

jhegarty

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Snappy boy, have you actually gone to one of the Masses. I am sure you gone to one of these things?

The only people who have gone to these must be in their 90's the rest either have Alzheimer's or are in the cemetery. I would say you stand a better chance of digging up a few corpses to fill a congregation for latin mass than finding a willing compos ones.

It was only 45 years ago.

pwurple

doctoremma wrote: »

I'd pull biology off that list. While I might know a fair few names and short phrases, I certainly haven't gleaned anything that would allow me to claim any knowledge of Latin as a language.

I'd say you know thousands of latin words... all the biology nomaclature is latin.

You may not have any grammar, but you wouldn't go very far without knowing the latin names in your area. "Red squidgy thing on the right" isn't very scientific.

doctoremma

pwurple wrote: »

I'd say you know thousands of latin words... all the biology nomaclature is latin.

Sure, and for some of them, I even know the English translation!

pwurple wrote: »

You may not have any grammar, but you wouldn't go very far without knowing the latin names in your area. "Red squidgy thing on the right" isn't very scientific.

But without grammar, all I have is a word list and no ability to communicate with someone to tell them that my leg is hanging off and I need an ambulance!

Also, the word "liver" is Anglo-Saxon (as Google has just told me)

skooterblue2

Those jobs use latin and greek but dont require you to understand it. Its like using Irish in the Army or the Guards. You ned a word here and there but you dont have to have a comprehensive knowledge. Yes I am aware Pi is 22/7 or 3.14 and it is the relation of the radius to the circumference of the circle but I dont need to know the history of it or where it fits into the Greek language. Only a very small proportion of the educated community have a full working knowledge. Its like Tax everyone knows enough to get by but very few can claim they have a comprehensive of the subject

Quote the full sentence please ...... compared to the the ECDL. You cant expect to put the Greek and latin subject back on the Syllabus.

skooterblue2

doctoremma wrote: »

But without grammar, all I have is a word list and no ability to communicate with someone to tell them that my leg is hanging off and I need an ambulance!

+1 Engineering can come off that list too. you just have to have the name with the symbol. Verb, adverb, conjunction, grammar, pronoun.... not relevent to Modern engineering.

skooterblue2

jhegarty wrote: »

It was only 45 years ago.

For people who can't remember that Saddam Hussein was the CIA's homeboy in South West Asia it was a long time ago. I wasn't Born 45 years ago. My Parent devoted Catholics wouldn't like it to come back. Latin and Greek as full languages only applies a tiny percentage of the academic commuity. Sure everyone knows a few words to get by. Doctors dont know the full latin language but they do have to know proper latin names of all the body parts

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

skooterblue2

We are debating whether the FULL Latin Language have any place in Modern life.

doctoremma

skooterblue2 wrote: »

We are debating whether the FULL Latin Language have any place in Modern life.

Or at least, in the church.

I have suffered through Latin masses and I have to say that I found them extremely boring, except for the few occasions where the phrases resembled something rude in English. If the church want to widen participation, surely using a global language is key here? fair enough if you feel it adds to the atmosphere or feeling of wonder/history/etc, but shouldn't you feel that in a church service anyway?

skooterblue2

doctoremma wrote: »

Or at least, in the church.

I have suffered through Latin masses and I have to say that I found them extremely boring, except for the few occasions where the phrases resembled something rude in English.

Wow you are hard core!! Do you have an active interest in Masochism or are you trying to find a cure for insomnia?

spurious

There is a sung Latin Mass in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin every Sunday at 11am.

It's not Tridentine.

pwurple

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Quote the full sentence please ...... compared to the the ECDL. You cant expect to put the Greek and latin subject back on the Syllabus.

Haha, especially compared to the ECDL. You are having a laugh surely. I thought that was too idiotic to even repeat. If that is your qualification, I'll cut you some slack on this topic though, as you may not have been exposed to many professions.

You cant expect to put the Greek and latin subject back on the Syllabus.

Exactly what syllabus are you talking about? No syllabus has been mentioned in this thread by anyone.

We are debating whether the FULL Latin Language have any place in Modern life.

No we are certainly not, the thread is about the latin mass, as stated in the title.

+1 Engineering can come off that list too.

What list? Engineering isn't on the list in the first place.

I'll stop feeding it now.

I like the latin mass. It was said in private masses for us when we were kids, by family priests. Maybe it's nostalgia.

skooterblue2

pwurple wrote: »

Haha, especially compared to the ECDL. You are having a laugh surely. I thought that was too idiotic to even repeat. If that is your qualification, I'll cut you some slack on this topic though, as you may not have been exposed to many professions.


What list? Engineering isn't on the list in the first place.

Maybe it's nostalgia.

It may surprise you to know I have a degree in Computers, city and guilds in Plant process and currently studying Engineering .... oh and I have ECDL as well.
Actually I do have many friends, lawyers, barristers, accountants, Engineers. They also have the ECDL. Dont knock it you wouldnt get far without it.

Engineering is a science that uses latin and greek from time to time but does not require a working understanding of the knowledge. 'Cetp to them folk who say we are descended from monkeys.

Latin would have to be taught in schools to allow the masses to understand it. Other wise it is about as comprehendible as the X-files reruns with German voice overs to the general public.