If Gay Marriage + Adoption are allowed won't children be bullied?

darkman2

Hi all,

Firstly just to say I am not gay and have no issue with the whole gay marriage thing. In fact I have no opinion on it. I accept equality for everyone in society as well as parity of esteem.


I do have concern regarding the prospect of adoptions though and here is why:

So say you are two gay people and you are married and you adopt a child - fair enough everything is ok so far.

From the age of 3 or 4 though as the child comes in to the school system then I do have a genuine concern for the well being of that child. Before continuing I know some are going to say we have to educate kids and all the rest of it and that's right, of course we do. But let's assume we live in the real world and not a world of make believe. In the real world children get bullied and they get bullied for lots of things whether it's how they act or how they look or they are physically weak or whatever. Suffice to say even in such benign scenarios through out primary and secondary school bullying get's extremely vicious. I know, I have witnessed it and I have seen it. But even kids who are doing the bullying mostly have a level at which eventually differences between them and other kids become tolerable.

IMO what won't, and will never, become tolerable to kids in general is a child being brought up by 2 men, for arguments sake. 2 women for some reason I think would be better but it's difficult for me to articulate why that might be. But let's stick with the kid being brought up by 2 men for a second.

What happens when the kid has to tell the class about his/her parents and he/she innocently tells the truth - like most kids do - that he/she is parented by 2 men? What do you think is going to happen to that kid? I have a fair idea of what is going to happen to that kid. That kid is going to suffer mental abuse the likes of which most parents today don't even realise how vicious it can get. That kid will probably get battered by other kids fairly regularly particularly in primary school. But where the real damage will be done is secondary school where psychological bullying is at it's worst for students who suffer it. I can only imagine the type of abuse the student will get in secondary school. Obviously it's always a minority that engage in serious targeted bullying. But as I already alluded even for petty reasons it can be extremely serious.


I just want to ask has the gay community seriously considered this risk to children throughout the campaign for gay marriage? It strikes me that the focus is on the gay people who want to marry and adopt but you rarely if ever here the advocates of it talk about the child.

I am sorry if this post seems a little direct - I just wanted to be clear on my point so as there is no confusion. I am just asking about the prospects of child bullying if adoption was allowed. I absolutely have no issue whatsoever with the gay community and wish you well in your ongoing campaigns.

Thanks!:)

wonderfulname

I came out at 13 and never had a problem in school, just to say. Most people of my age I know will say the same. I've said this before on boards, but anyway, over 70% of Irish people support equal marriage rights, never mind merely aren't extreme homophobes, give your country some credit.

Why would a 4year old take issue with someone having two dads? Genuinely, where would they pull that out of?

28064212

If black people are allowed marry, won't children be bullied? If fat people are allowed marry, won't children be bullied? If travellers are allowed marry, won't children be bullied? If ginger people are allowed marry, won't children be bullied?

That is one of THE stupidest arguments in a long line of stupid, stupid arguments

Turtwig

A quote by a great intellectual.

Women can, of course, be educated, but their minds are not adapted to the higher sciences, philosophy, or certain of the arts. Women may have happy inspirations, taste, elegance, but they have not the ideal. The difference between man and woman is the same as between animal and plant. The animal corresponds more closely to the character of the man, the plant to that of the woman. In woman there is a more peaceful unfolding of nature, a process, whose principle is the less clearly determined unity of feeling. If woman were to control the government, the state would be in danger, for they do not act according to the dictates of universality, but are in influenced by accidental inclinations and opinions. The education of woman goes on one only knows how, in the atmosphere of picture thinking, as it were, more through life than through the acquisition of knowledge. Man attains his position only through stress of thought and much specialized effort.

There was a time when children thought it was wrong for women to be in a position of prominence. If gay marriage becomes culturally acceptable what you fear won't even be an issue. In fact, it's kind of a disgrace that it could be an issue.

gcgirl

I'm gay I have 3 kids they don't get any hassle what do ever or even comments, I'm the cool mum that whips her sons friends at Call of Duty

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

That is one of THE stupidest arguments in a long line of stupid, stupid arguments

Do you want to deal with the issue or do want insults?

Annasopra

It's not a valid argument at all

You could say the same about disabled people having children or red haired people or left handed people

Funnily enough I do consider this from the childs viewpoint.

For example this letter to Fergus Finlay impressed me a lot and I also really felt for him or her that his or her rights are not being considered

Dear Fergus,

My name is <name> and I’m twelve years old. I’m writing to you about how I feel about having lesbian parents, which I don’t think about very often because they are mostly my mums. I really like having lesbian parents and so does my brother <name> who is seven and a half. I get along great with my friends in school and have no trouble whatsoever academically.

My dad lives just down the road, under a kilometre away, and he’s gay. I will be going into secondary school next September, which I’m looking forward to a lot. Currently I play the piano and also play rugby for my local club.

I think many laws should be passed to do with lesbian and gay people. For example, I think there should be a law passed that would recognise Margaret as my mum, even though she isn’t my birth mother. She cooks, usually very well, she works hard, and she calls me in the mornings, the same as my other mother, Maria. I would like us as a family to be recognised by the law so that we have the same rights as everyone else. Maybe you could help us to get the government to change the laws. If you would ever like to meet us to talk more about this let me know.

Also when you ask people like Conor Prendergast about this it's really not that much of an issue

So I switched schools and then, funnily enough, I still got a bit of
bullying in the new school but it was never… this is probably the point at which you ask “Well what did they say about your mums?” I have never experienced bullying about my parents. I never once had someone turn around and say “Hey, you’re that weirdo with the lesbian parents.”It’s always been“Hey, you’re that guy from London and you’ve got an accent and I vaguely remember some kind of history where we don’t like the English!”

darkman2

Jernal wrote: »

A quote by a great intellectual.



In fact, it's kind of a disgrace that it could be an issue.

I specifically am asking in the OP that people deal with real world and not some fictional one we would all like to live in. I think any child where it became known the parents were gay is going to have serious problems. Now you can have your head in the sand all you like but that's reality.


Even in the first couple of posts here I can already see it's not about the child. It never seems to be.


I am saying that a child in that position is at severe risk of bullying. I think most sane parents more than anyone else would agree with that.

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

Do you want to deal with the issue or do want insults?

Did you manage to completely miss the first part of the post? The post goes: Argument => Conclusion.

Are you going to address the point or just read half of this one too?

MrStuffins

You're right OP.

We should continue to live in our current Utopia where bullies & bullying don't exist!

darkman2

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not a valid argument at all

You could say the same about disabled people having children or red haired people or left handed people

Come on, surely your not that long out of school to know it is not the same when it comes to issues of homosexuality in schools. It just is'nt. That comparison is silly.

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

I specifically am asking in the OP that people deal with real world and not some fictional one we would all like to live in. I think any child where it became known the parents were gay is going to have serious problems. Now you can have your head in the sand all you like but that's reality.


Even in the first couple of posts here I can already see it's not about the child. It never seems to be.


I am saying that a child in that position is at severe risk of bullying. I think most sane parents more than anyone else would agree with that.

As I said I do actually think about the child - his or her lack of rights to have a legal relationship with both parents is actually something that I find very concerning. I've also given you some examples of real situations so stop suggesting that we are not living in reality

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

Are you going to address the point or just read half of this one too?

Your comparison is daft. We are talking about school children here. And we talking about gay parents. Your comparison is seeking to almost trivialise a risk there to a child when it comes to bullying.


What's the most common slag in a school? Can you answer that for me?

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

Come on, surely your not that long out of school to know it is not the same when it comes to issues of homosexuality in schools? It just is'nt. That comparison is silly.

It's not a silly comparison at all. It's perfectly valid. I note you're not even engaging on the other points I made.

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

Your comparison is daft. We are talking about school children here. And we talking about gay parents. Your comparison is seeking to almost trivialise a risk there to a child when it comes to bullying.


What's the most common slag in a school? Can you answer that for me?

Fat? Retard? ******? Bitch? Bollocks? C**t? F*cker? Sh*thead? Ginger? Stop me when I get close

Turtwig

darkman2 wrote: »

I specifically am asking in the OP that people deal with real world and not some fictional one we would all like to live in. I think any child where it became known the parents were gay is going to have serious problems. Now you can have your head in the sand all you like but that's reality.


Even in the first couple of posts here I can already see it's not about the child. It never seems to be.


I am saying that a child in that position is at severe risk of bullying. I think most sane parents more than anyone else would agree with that.

I dealt with the real world. Only I dealt with in a slightly different era. The intellectual, Hegel, is regarded as a great philosopher. Yet he thought almost nothing of women. If a child is raised in a society that is homophobic then that child would of course be terrified of having gay parents. However if society is not homophobic where does this issue of bullying come from. It's a non issue. For what it's worth study after study for the last forty or more years in the US have no suggestion that gay kids were bullied more by their peers.

MrStuffins

darkman2 wrote: »

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not a valid argument at all

You could say the same about disabled people having children or red haired people or left handed people

Come on, surely your not that long out of school to know it is not the same when it comes to issues of homosexuality in schools? It just is'nt. That comparison is silly.

I've seen kids in school bullied for having glasses, having red hair, having freckles, having no freckles, being poor, for not wearing the latest shoes, for wearing hats, for bring left handed, for not being good at football, for being too good at football, for being overweight, for bring underweight.........

What exactly is your point OP?

darkman2

MrStuffins wrote: »

You're right OP.

We should continue to live in our current Utopia where bullies & bullying don't exist!

Funny thing is i'm only asking a question and have taken great care in phrasing the OP and have made crystal clear my stance is positive on gay marriage yet it seems I am being snapped at. "How dare you bring this up!" sort of thing.

darkman2

MrStuffins wrote: »

What exactly is your point OP?

It will be far worse if the parents are gay (unfortunately).

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

Funny thing is i'm only asking a question and have taken great care in phrasing the OP and have made crystal clear my stance is positive on gay marriage yet it seems I am being snapped at. "How dare you bring this up!" sort of thing.

No-one is snapping at you! People are politely engaging with you and explaining how your theories are pointless

28064212

MrStuffins wrote: »

I've seen kids in school bullied for having glasses?

Oh thanks, forgot "four-eyes", that was a very popular one in my school

Turtwig

darkman2 wrote: »

Funny thing is i'm only asking a question and have taken great care in phrasing the OP and have made crystal clear my stance is positive on gay marriage yet it seems I am being snapped at. "How dare you bring this up!" sort of thing.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. . .

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

Fat? Retard? ******? Bitch? Bollocks? C**t? F*cker? Sh*thead? Ginger? Stop me when I get close

"You're gay" and other homophobe derogatory terms are the single most common I heard and i'm not that long out of secondary school. I live in a posh enough area with plenty of enlightened students in my school. But if you were gay, and nobody ever said they were, you would have got slagged 100%. If your parents were gay you would have gotten much worse. This is the mentality in schools. Your dealing with kids and teenagers.

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

"You're gay" and other homophobe derogatory terms are the single most common I heard and i'm not that long out of secondary school. I live in a posh enough area with plenty of enlightened students in my school. But if you were gay, and nobody ever said they were, you would have got slagged 100%. If your parents were gay you would have gotten much worse. This is the mentality in schools. Your dealing with kids and teenagers.

Actually schools have massively changed in recent years due to belong to campaigns. There has been a huge culture change in many Irish schools.

darkman2

Jernal wrote: »

I dealt with the real world. Only I dealt with in a slightly different era. The intellectual, Hegel, is regarded as a great philosopher. Yet he thought almost nothing of women. If a child is raised in a society that is homophobic then that child would of course be terrified of having gay parents. However if society is not homophobic where does this issue of bullying come from. It's a non issue. For what it's worth study after study for the last forty or more years in the US have no suggestion that gay kids were bullied more by their peers.

Fair enough but....

Irish society is homophobic. I can say that without fear of contradiction. Publicly it may seem ok on the surface - but privately I would regard most people as homophobic in this country which is sad. It's just reality. Now whilst they may be homophobic most do manage to keep it to themselves. Trouble with kids is they have problems doing that and parents private attitudes in the home are easily passed on.

darkman2

mango salsa wrote: »

Actually schools have massively changed in recent years due to belong to campaigns. There has been a huge culture change in many Irish schools.

In the last 3 years? I don't deny good work is going on but I think that is fanciful.

Annasopra

OP maybe read this and find out what the issues for children being parented by LGBT people are

http://www.marriagequality.ie/download/pdf/voc_report_final_sept_10.pdf

ixoy

darkman2 wrote: »

But if you were gay, and nobody ever said they were, you would have got slagged 100%. If your parents were gay you would have gotten much worse.

"Would" is the word you've used here, not "did". You're making assumptions about what people might say and seem to have decided that's what would happen.

darkman2

mango salsa wrote: »

No-one is snapping at you! People are politely engaging with you and explaining how your theories are pointless

I am not putting forward a theory like some University professor you know.;)

darkman2

ixoy wrote: »

"Would" is the word you've used here, not "did". You're making assumptions about what people might say and seem to have decided that's what would happen.

Trust me it's a solid enough observation. You must know this? You must.

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

In the last 3 years? I don't deny good work is going on but I think that is fanciful.

Well Belong to has existed for nearly 10 years and yes in the last 3 years there has been a seechange in attitudes and this can be clearly seen in the amount of people using the service

BeLonG To’s National Network of LGBT youth groups grew from eight groups to 14, the largest since BeLonG To’s inception in 2003, with new groups opening in Sligo, Mayo, Tallaght, Kilkenny, Tralee and Wexford.

In Dublin, 20% more young people accessed BeLonG To services between 2010 and 2011.

Outside Dublin, 53% more young people accessed BeLonG To services between 2010 and 2011.

264% more young people in Ireland accessed BeLonG To services between 2008 and 2011.

Outside Dublin, 311% more young people accessed the BeLonG To National Network between 2008 and 2011.

sydthebeat

If this were the case then the problem is with the bully and not the bullied. Its societies responsibility to teach the bully what's wrong... Not to make the bullied feel like they are in the wrong.

Its a valid question, but not a valid viewpoint.

darkman2

alan1990 wrote: »

less than perfect situation!!

The tangible effect of that will be seen in the school, not at home IMO (and it is only my opinion). What worry's me even more is that some seem to think that Ireland has suddenly become this hugely enlightened society overnight. Which is blatantly not true. For example I am not long out of school and people who maybe have not been in school for 10 or more years are automatically telling me i'm wrong about attitudes that go in school. :rolleyes:

I would say alot of students are not as enlightened as they seem to think. Some are. Some are great too btw.

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

"You're gay" and other homophobe derogatory terms are the single most common I heard and i'm not that long out of secondary school. I live in a posh enough area with plenty of enlightened students in my school. But if you were gay, and nobody ever said they were, you would have got slagged 100%. If your parents were gay you would have gotten much worse. This is the mentality in schools. Your dealing with kids and teenagers.

The most common I heard was a toss up between fat and speccy/four-eyes. Given that you're basing your theory on what happened in your school, does what was most common in my school not count?

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

The most common I heard was a toss up between fat and speccy/four-eyes. Given that you're basing your theory on what happened in your school, does what was most common in my school not count?

When were you in school if you don't mind me asking? It's just I think your behind the curve of the standard of insults in school by about 30 years there (joking!)

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

Trust me it's a solid enough observation. You must know this? You must.

No-one is denying that kids will get bullied

What we are saying is

A; Your experience of your school is frankly not enough evidence for anything really (all it is just a few anecdotes from you)
B; Kids get bullied for all sorts of differences
C; The experiences of REAL children in families with gay parents is that they don't always get bullied because of their parents
D; Let's provide more education rather than allow bigotry to thrive

darkman2

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its a valid question, but not a valid viewpoint.

In your opinion. I actually think many would agree with me on this to varying degrees.

I am also aware this is the gay subforum so opinions are automatically going to stack against me in here. If I put in AH it would be much more balanced I think.

iCosmopolis

IMHO I think potentially opening up an extra pool of loving couples & homes to bring up children who might not have that opportunity would far outweigh any assumed threat of bullying due to the gender of their loving parents. There is so much diversity now in many kids backgrounds already-never mind being picked on for your lack of wealth,style or colouring, there'll always be something. And if having two loving parents,of any sex,is one..I just don't know

Turtwig

darkman2 wrote: »

In your opinion. I actually think many would agree with me on this to varying degrees.

I am also aware this is the gay subforum so opinions are automatically going to stack against me in here. If I put in AH it would be much more balanced I think.

The validity of your argument has nothing to do with how many people agree with it. It's purely a question of whether your argument is valid or not.

darkman2

iCosmopolis wrote: »

IMHO I think potentially opening up an extra pool of loving couples & homes to bring up children who might not have that opportunity would far outweigh any assumed threat of bullying due to the gender of their loving parents. There is so much diversity now in many kids backgrounds already-never mind being picked on for your lack of wealth,style or colouring, there'll always be something. And if having two loving parents,of any sex,is one..I just don't know

Nobody is going to disagree with that. I am not saying kids should not be adopted by gay parents.

darkman2

Jernal wrote: »

The validity of your argument has nothing to do with how many people agree with it. It's purely a question of whether your argument is valid or not.

It is valid. Why would it not be valid?

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

When were you in school if you don't mind me asking? It's just I think your behind the curve of the standard of insults in school by about 30 years there (joking!)

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes. I don't use personal experiences in general arguments because they're irrelevant. To reuse an old saying: "the plural of anecdote is not data"

But since you are using your single experience in one school, you haven't answered the question: Do other's experiences not count? If gay is a common insult in one school, and retard is more common in another, do we stop gays and people with disabilities from having kids? If we do a study of all the schools, how far down the list do we go? Top 3 grouping insults can't have kids? Top 5? And how do we keep the list updated? Yearly surveys, and then whichever insult tops the list, they can't have kids for the next 12 months?

Or, and this is just an absolutely bat-shit crazy idea, we don't let school-yard insults (most of which are whatever comes to a 7 year-old's mind when they're not distracted by the sand-pit) decide important legislation?

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes. I don't use personal experiences in general arguments because they're irrelevant. To reuse an old saying: "the plural of anecdote is not data"

But since you are using your single experience in one school, you haven't answered the question: Do other's experiences not count? If gay is a common insult in one school, and retard is more common in another, do we stop gays and people with disabilities from having kids? If we do a study of all the schools, how far down the list do we go? Top 3 grouping insults can't have kids? Top 5? And how do we keep the list updated? Yearly surveys, and then whichever insult tops the list, they can't have kids for the next 12 months?

Or, and this is just an absolutely bat-shit crazy idea, we don't let school-yard insults (most of which are whatever comes to a 7 year-old's mind when they're not distracted by the sand-pit) decide important legislation?

I will answer that as soon as you give me an idea of when you left school. I think that is relevant here.

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

I will answer that as soon as you give me an idea of when you left school. I think that is relevant here.

It's really not relevant at all actually. You don't seem to understand that we are saying social policy decision making should be evidence based not based on anecdotes from your school.

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes.

When have I said that? I am not saying that.

darkman2

mango salsa wrote: »

It's really not relevant at all actually.

Well then his argument is over. It is relevant if he wants to talk about my period in school and observations. It becomes irrelevant if he was in school 20 years ago.

TheChizler

I see the OP's point that it's something that will be seen as a reason to bully, but agree that it's just adding to a long, arbitrary list of reasons. However when full marriage rights do eventually come in I don't see what major difference there will be from a bully's perspective. The partner that had previously just been living with the child's parent and been called mum/dad has now just signed a piece of paper and is still called mum/dad. The situation already exists is what I'm saying.

And in future as gay legal-parents becomes more normal the effect of the bullying will die. In time I can't imagine kids will be any more upset than being called four-eyes or ginger, if they are even upset at all now. Bullies will always bully people who seem to differ from the majority, their need to bully stems from their own problems that they need to sort out and are not the concern of the state/society.

28064212

darkman2 wrote: »

Well then his argument is over. It is relevant if he wants to talk about my period in school and observations.

Fortunately, I don't. I don't care when you went to school. I don't care what happened in your particular school, among your particular set of pupils. You are the one who brought up a tiny, tiny subset of data and thought it was something to base your position on

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

Well then his argument is over. It is relevant if he wants to talk about my period in school and observations. It becomes irrelevant if he was in school 20 years ago.

You don't seem to understand that we are saying social policy decision making should be evidence based not based on anecdotes from your school.

darkman2

28064212 wrote: »

Fortunately, I don't. I don't care when you went to school. I don't care what happened in your particular school, among your particular set of pupils. You are the one who brought up a tiny, tiny subset of data and thought it was something to base your position on

You were asking me about what happened in my school or referencing my experience. You have undermined any argument you might make from now on to me. You could be 60 years of age for all I know (and I don't care what age you are) so my impression is you won't give a round figure on when you left school on purpose because it might embarrass you a little bit. That's fine. That's your business.

Annasopra

darkman2 wrote: »

You were asking me about what happened in my school or referencing my experience. You have undermined any argument you might make from now on to me. You could be 60 years of age for all I know (and I don't care what age you are) so my impression is you won't give a round figure on when you left school on purpose because it might embarrass you a little bit. That's fine. That's your business.

You're still not getting it.

:rolleyes: