Quitting

CramCycle

Looked over the forum and couldn't see anything about how/why to quit, I feel its a reasonable discussion to quit after having a talk with a student today who just couldn't do it anymore. Smart guy, just doesn't work with his supervisor, lack of focus. He told me he gave a deadline before to get things moving to which is supervisor told him NO, he had an obligation to the funding body and people involved.

I feel really bad for the guy as he is worried he won't get a job if he quits two years into a PhD, it wouldn't affect my decision hiring someone, i might warn them they have to prove them selves eg it was the situation rather than them but he thinks no one will look at him.

I told him to lie, say he was a MSc and then a research assistant/demonstrator as a part time thing.

Any opinions? Should I tell him to hang in or any advice I can give? I know and get on with his supervisor but to be honest I can see where he has issues, its not his fault or his supervisors, just not the right path according to him. I know everyone gets the blues/feels like dropping out but this guy looked in so much worse a state than any other student I know/came before/is just behind me.

2Scoops

That sucks. Quitting is never easy but I've seen cases where it was definitely the right decision. Does this guy have a masters already? If not, is it possible that he could in some way legitimately be conferred with one based on what he has so far? Another option I've seen work is to swap supervisor, but depends on the specifics of the situation and the collegiality of the department. Or start a new PhD somewhere else entirely.

When it comes to applying for jobs, I wouldn't volunteer the quitting info. It's too easy to dismiss candidates over perceived flaws; no point giving them ammunition. It will be difficult to directly lie about it, though, depending on the job and how much background snooping they do.

CramCycle

2Scoops wrote: »

Does this guy have a masters already? If not, is it possible that he could in some way legitimately be conferred with one based on what he has so far?

Technically he should, he done a transfer from the MSc to PhD register last year which I was always under the impression that if you left for whatever reason, you would be conferred with a MSc, hope I'm right about that?

Another option I've seen work is to swap supervisor, but depends on the specifics of the situation and the collegiality of the department. Or start a new PhD somewhere else entirely.

Noone else really in his field and with little/no funding, I don't see it happening. He did say he wouldn't mind doing another PhD in the future as he really enjoyed the start of it, just a collection of issues have made it unworkable at the minute, I suggested a break and try and come back but he said he wouldn't come back to the same guy.

When it comes to applying for jobs, I wouldn't volunteer the quitting info. It's too easy to dismiss candidates over perceived flaws; no point giving them ammunition. It will be difficult to directly lie about it, though, depending on the job and how much background snooping they do.

I told him to out down a MSc for when he handed in his transfer (but that maybe incorrect as they may only date it for the year he leaves?!? and put down his demonstrating/lecturing/skills acquired as training or as a job but I'm not sure how he should/could phrase it.

cgc5483

Would just try and get him write it up as a MSc. Would have no problem hiring someone that previously been in a similar situation. Would also advise them to be honest about what happened. Much better than lying and pretending it didn't happen, if they continued in Ireland with a new PhD it's a small place and word gets around. I know someone in our Dept on their 3rd PhD.

CramCycle

cgc5483 wrote: »

Would just try and get him write it up as a MSc. .

I presumed that if he done a transfer he just received a PhD MSc once he officially left? Am I wrong? He was on a MSc to start and was offered a continuation to a PhD so he transferred tot he PhD register which I thought was the same as writing up a PhD.

avalon68

CramCycle wrote: »

I presumed that if he done a transfer he just received a PhD once he officially left? Am I wrong? He was on a MSc to start and was offered a continuation to a PhD so he transferred tot he PhD register which I thought was the same as writing up a PhD.

No, the transfer just means that his committee felt things were moving in the right direction and he was making adequate progress. He may have enough material to write up a masters though. Only he and his supervisor could judge that. A phd is a long haul, and if he feels it isn't working out, then he should get out now. No one will think less of him for it - sometimes projects just don't work out, and that's how he should explain it. If he wants to start another phd he will at least know what to look out for a any potential supervisors.

CramCycle

avalon68 wrote: »

No, the transfer just means that his committee felt things were moving in the right direction and he was making adequate progress.

Oh dear, I think one of his issues is his supervisor, he seems to have a genuine fear of going to him with this, he told me he wrote out a timetable for completion awhile ago and wrote a note on it explaining that he felt if he was unable to meet this timetable he should resign/leave. He told me his supervisor wrote back and said this was unacceptable and he would not be allowed do this as he had a debt to the funding body/people involved.
What happens now if he decides to leave, could he be left with nothing if the supervisor refuses to accept a MSc write up?

A phd is a long haul, and if he feels it isn't working out, then he should get out now. No one will think less of him for it - sometimes projects just don't work out, and that's how he should explain it. If he wants to start another phd he will at least know what to look out for a any potential supervisors.

He is talking about research assistant as he loves working in the lab and thinks this would suit him, he had a call from his old company last week offering him two different jobs so I have no doubt he is a hard worker and will find work somewhere, I think his supervisors reaction is his main concern and he is not able to wrap his head around it at the minute, a nice guy in my opinion, I can see him not taking it well either.

CramCycle

Just chatted to him there at lunch, he was up in the registrars office before I talked to him and he'll have to cough up a write up fee of 525euro to get the Masters. I told him that its unlikely he'd get away with handing in the transfer report as a MSc and that he'd have ot update it, add in new work he's done etc. but he might, not sure who reviews it.

Alas this is where he is now more worried, he thinks the work he's done over the last year does not lend itself to going into a MSc, or anything he'd put his name too, apparently his super has being switching direction quite a bit and he only has an additional 6 months of work in the last 18 months.

His other option was to go off the live register, get a job and write up in his free time but again his concern is his super.

avalon68

Research assistant jobs in Ireland are few and far between in general, and usually only a short time solution. I'm not sure why he is writing notes to his supervisor. I know it's tough, but really the only way to deal with this is to arrange a meeting and sit down to talk about it. His supervisor will not prevent him from leaving if he wants to....no one wants someone who doesn't want to be there in their lab. Also, no supervisor wants a student to leave with nothing as it also reflects badly on supervisor. He will guide your friend in writing up a masters if that is really what he wants to do. It's quite possible the supervisor is very happy with his work, students don't always see the big picture and often get too focused on things that aren't going well rather than on all their accomplishments.

CramCycle

avalon68 wrote: »

Research assistant jobs in Ireland are few and far between in general, and usually only a short time solution.

He has seen a few he likes but is unsure how dropping out of his PhD will affect his chances.

I'm not sure why he is writing notes to his supervisor.

I am not sure what you mean here?

I know it's tough, but really the only way to deal with this is to arrange a meeting and sit down to talk about it. His supervisor will not prevent him from leaving if he wants to....no one wants someone who doesn't want to be there in their lab.

He will have to like it or not, he was just asking advice from me (apparently it was not good advice initially but I'm glad he found that out before rather than after). His supervisor does strike me as the type whos only concern are his own reputation if he drops out. I feel for the guy as he knows he has no reference if he leaves, therefore scuppering his employment chances, but he'll get a poor one if he stays as he doesn't think he can do the work or provide the level required for a PhD

Also, no supervisor wants a student to leave with nothing as it also reflects badly on supervisor. He will guide your friend in writing up a masters if that is really what he wants to do.

He might/He might not, from the student himself, his super seemed like a PhD is all that is there.

It's quite possible the supervisor is very happy with his work, students don't always see the big picture and often get too focused on things that aren't going well rather than on all their accomplishments.

The supervisor is happy with his work but that is more to do with the fact that the supervisor thinks that he is closer to finishing than he does, after talking to him, I think he could get it wrapped up inside of 6 months but he tells me that is not an option, as well as his general unhappiness with this PhD, he does not have money to continue, he has had no funding for a year (I thought he had but apparently not), no stipend, and the last few crumbs of an overdraft.

I was tempted to recommend he go off books, I realise technically he can't use equipment but he wouldn't be the first person in a lab to be working off books where necessary. I also had the idea that he could do it part time after being at a talk with Peter Doherty who done his PhD part time but then I thought no as that is probably only dragging out the inevitable and if he finds employment he'll probably never finish, although if he got a job in a research lab there may be opportunities to continue his work, honestly I don't know what to tell him.

avalon68

If the supervisor thinks he is nearly finished, he probably is - is it possible your friend is just feeling insecure about the work done? Remember, a PhD is essentially just a training period - and it is the supervisors job to ensure his students are progressing. No funding is a disaster though - what year is he in? Happened in my last year too - he might be able to pick up some demonstrating/tutoring, but if not then the supervisor can really have no complaints about him wanting to leave. No-one can live on fresh air! And its really de-moralising to go to work everyday and not get paid anything at all. If worst comes to work call the student ombudsman in to mediate with supervisor or perhaps go for a chat with them to see what the options are. My best advice would be to arrange a meeting with supervisor asap, talk through what work has been done and agree on what still needs to be done - set milestones, have meetings at least once a week to measure progress and take it from there.

CramCycle

avalon68 wrote: »

If the supervisor thinks he is nearly finished, he probably is - is it possible your friend is just feeling insecure about the work done?

HIs supervisor has a view of what work is required to finish, and a timescale for it, after talking to the student I don't even think that it is doable within the timescale having done similar work myself for my write up. It also costs, though not sure why he didn't go to his super straight away and say "no money, no experiments"

Remember, a PhD is essentially just a training period - and it is the supervisors job to ensure his students are progressing. No funding is a disaster though - what year is he in? Happened in my last year too - he might be able to pick up some demonstrating/tutoring, but if not then the supervisor can really have no complaints about him wanting to leave.

He could be 3rd or 4th, not certain, he was demonstrrating but that stopped over the summer and it pays pittance when the college is claiming that 4 hours must be done for free under "academic development" (ie cost cutting)

My best advice would be to arrange a meeting with supervisor asap, talk through what work has been done and agree on what still needs to be done - set milestones, have meetings at least once a week to measure progress and take it from there.

I get the impression that the milestones being set are not achievable in previous meetings in the students eyes and at this point he is down to his last few pennies.

I won't see him till tomorrow but I'll recommend that he just sit down and tell his super, keeping it quiet can only end badly (even worse than he thinks talking to his super will be).

Thanks for the advice everyone, I would have been a terrible source of advice on my own.

bduffy

This is late, but I know plenty of people that quit PhD's after 3 and 4 years! They got their papers and chapters, but decided that the extra work was just going to take too long. In the end they wrote down that they were Research Assistants or wrote up as MSc.
10 years on and they are all employed and never regretted it!
At any interview it's their industrial experience that is dicussed, not their time as an RA.