Has the internet increased Atheism in society?

phanley

Has the internet increased Atheism in society?

Whats peoples views on this?

For me it allowed me to educate myself in lots of religious beliefs, religious history and in the scientific theories that exist on the beginnings of the universe and talks from people on both side of the is there a god argument...

I went from a young person who was questioning religion to an atheist using all (well most) of the information I could get my hands on and rationally thinking about what religion is based on and those who control it.

doctoremma

phanley wrote: »

Has the internet increased Atheism in society?

Whats peoples views on this?

For me it allowed me to educate myself in lots of religious beliefs, religious history and in the scientific theories that exist on the beginnings of the universe and talks from people on both side of the is there a god argument...

I think the resources have always been there but it's undeniable that the internet has widened access to information. Where you might not have bothered to go to the library/bookshop to find information about XYZ, now you have it at your fingertips (and are therefore more likely to read it).

Education is changing as well. In the UK, we now have guidelines for teaching things like the evolution at pre-11 years. The popularisation of science will cause more than a few to rethink their position.

Couple all this with the desires of many governments and people for secularism, the freedom to travel, the transplantation of different peoples from all walks of life, and you have a society where religion (or, at least, any single religion) begins to look a little shaky!

fitz0

I don't think it's a cause, rather a facilitator of discussion between like minded individuals that speeds the progression of ideas.

I came to this forum not long after I began to doubt and it definitely helped clarify and rethink many of the new ideas that were forming in my head about religion and the lack thereof. However, the process had begun and I would have discarded my religious beliefs eventually, discovery of this forum just helped me along. Had I discovered this or other forums before I began to doubt, I wonder what effect it would have had on me.

The internet has been very successful, both positively and negatively, in giving voice to dissenting opinions. There were just as many opinions before the internet, we just had no way of being exposed to them on the scale we are now.

Corkfeen

Besides the easy access to information, it has made people more aware that there are many atheists besides themselves (To a greater degree than one might expect anyway).

joseph brand

I think it helped Atheists 'come out'. Knowing that there were many other Atheists out there helps one's confidence in their lack of belief.

This forum, coupled with YouTube videos of Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins and more, certainly cemented my views and had me saying "hah, I knew I was right".

Theists fail miserably in every debate. They often come across as cantankerous, ignorant or childish.

In the words of Shatner: "I can't get behind that!"

magicbastarder

i don't know if it's possible to say either way; it may have helped atheists organise in ways that were difficult before, but it has also helped fundamentalists too; it's a great bringing together of 'niche' interests which before net access had too low density to achieve workable mass.

FouxDaFaFa

I think it's been helpful for people that were never exposed to any alternative religious views (raised in an extremely devout household for example). It also helps people doubting it all to see that they're not alone.

I don't think it's created this explosion of new atheists, it's just now they're talking to one another.

Nailz

As a student in the field of information, IS and IS through networks and businesses, I have become more aware of the ‘network of networks’ significance apart from what is seen on the outside. Apart from that informations' availability itself, through the advancements in web technology, it allows us to interact with the information on hand through Web 2.0; we can discuss our opinions and knowledge with others, be they Theists, Atheists or Deists.

The alternative point of view is always on hand to compare and contrast information; when one puts that against what it was like here in this country before CERN devised the net for commerical use, we can see that it greatly improves our horizons. If we were to ask our teacher for whom we are obliged to trust in our youth, it is likely we would receive a biased and thoughtless point of view on their behalf, leading us to unquestioning ignorance.

That has been in fact one of the Internets' many great improvements it has made sociologically, both private and institutional — that being education, or more specifically, self-education. The very availability of the information actually encourages exploration in search for it, particularly for those who seek it or thrive upon it, whereas without the Internet to harness the data the people who are even looking for it may have great difficulty in finding it. Advancements are constantly being made in network hardware and technology in general, which will only reek benefits for those who take advantage of it.

How Atheism comes into play with all this, as well as its increasing popularity, is because Atheism/Agnosticism is naturally logical and fundementally forward-thinking when compared to a Faith based school of thought in which the majority are already familiar with, therefore the net helps Atheism moreso than it hinders it.

Kivaro

phanley wrote: »

Has the internet increased Atheism in society?

That's a good question, young Phanley.

What it has done is increase the rate of people admitting that they are Atheists (in my opinion).

Eventually 'logic' (rational thinking) will trump superstition, and the Internet, as a medium, has helped to speed up the process.

Beruthiel

Like your avatar Kivaro.

I was around before the internet.
I remember the effort involved in trying to access information.
Or not even being able to and just being left to wonder about X, Y & Z.

The internet is fantastic, info on just about anything at your fingertips. Limited only by your imagination.

So yes, the internet has helped in forming peoples opinions.
Sometimes you just need to read the words for a lightbulb to go off in your head.
Viva la internet!

Zamboni

Kivaro wrote: »

That's a good question, young Phanley.

What it has done is increase the rate of people admitting that they are Atheists (in my opinion).

Eventually 'logic' (rational thinking) will trump superstition, and the Internet, as a medium, has helped to speed up the process.

There is no guaranteed path to logic for the species unfortunately.
Personally I would envisage that the species will eradicate itself long before organic atheism and logic could become ubiquitous.
And I am usually a glass half full kind of guy...

Pushtrak

I've seen the religions debate online for quite a long time now. Going back to '00 or '01. On places like Yahoo Chat, or message boards. I recall being a member of AudioGalaxy that was a music download site back in the day. It had quite an active message board, and the religion debate was quite heated there. Lots of trolls on both sides, but some good content to be found there at times too.

I can definitely say in more recent times of actually watching people on YouTube (which I do too much of, am subscribed to a hell of a lot of channels) I see something come up quite a lot. That for some people, the idea of atheism isn't something that is apparent to some people. Like some people aren't aware its an option. That it was online they discovered they could be such a thing. I couldn't possibly have fathomed such a perspective, but I see it coming up so much in my time of being line from way back up till even now that it is an interesting phenomenon that one ought to be aware of when considering the internet and its ramifications on religious belief.

YouTube is great, you can find some fantastic content on there. Or, there is great content to be found there. A minor distinction, but an important one. A lot of the great YouTubers don't get as much popularity as others, or just as much popularity as they deserve. The thing is, though, if seeing more acceptance of a position strengthens it, the very same argument can be raised in favour of all manner of things. Young Earth Cretinism, homeopathy, alien abductions, yada yada, you all know the story.

I wonder if anyone remembers christian burner from way back... I'll provide links from the way back machine site.

http://web.archive.org/web/200101290427/http://www.christianburner.com/reality.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101290543/http://www.christianburner.com/testimonials.html

It was a great site. I'll quote something to whet your appetite to check out more..

Kiss Hank's Ass

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the **** out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the **** out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the **** of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on From the desk of Karl letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the **** out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't drink.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the **** out of you.

Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the **** out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of reen cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the **** out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

username123

Its not just the internet, in my parents day 'normal' people left school after the primary certificate to get jobs - only the sons of doctors and solicitors went to "university" (I put university in quotes to impart a tone of awe while using the word).

So most people were not encouraged to use their brains for any kind of analytical thinking and were not encouraged to broaden their minds by meeting different people from other parts of the country and the world in an educational environment.

Travel was not as accessible as it is today, for most peoples parents, a trip to Australia in youth would have meant total emigration - now every mid 20 year old has spent a year back packing, experiencing different cultures, realising that Catholic Ireland is not the only way to live.

And obviously, the internet has allowed for an explosion of information at our fingertips.

Catholic indoctrination in Ireland is still very much alive, but people no longer fear the parish priest as they once did, and popular culture such a tv shows, films and music expose people to other religions and options in ways it wouldnt have done before.

So Id say there have are a number of reasons why its 'easier' to think about atheism these days, with the internet being one of them.

Dades

Religious seems to be using the Internet too to spread their message, but not the same extent atheism is filtering through. It's easier to deliver cold logic on a web page than the "faith" type stuff that requires a more touchy feely approach.

Corkfeen

Dades wrote: »

Religious seems to be using the Internet too to spread their message, but not the same extent atheism is filtering through. It's easier to deliver cold logic on a web page than the "faith" type stuff that requires a more touchy feely approach.

It is rather annoying when you come across sites teaching pseudoscience to promote creationism.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

Religious seems to be using the Internet too to spread their message, but not the same extent atheism is filtering through. It's easier to deliver cold logic on a web page than the "faith" type stuff that requires a more touchy feely approach.

It might have been cold logic which made the final cut, but it always seemed to me that much of the initial damage was done by contra-religious humor.

Ciaran0

robindch wrote: »

It might have been cold logic which made the final cut, but it always seemed to me that much of the initial damage was done by contra-religious humor.

Actually, in my relatively recent conversion to the dark side, comedy on youtube's been a great boost. I watched people like Dara O Brien and Tim Minchin, thought, 'Oh yeah they've got some great points,' then go on to think more carefully about religious matters and come to the conclusion that it was all bull****.

I think there should be more comedy in education. It's very effective.

Bloodwing

Personally I was an atheist long before i had access to the inter-web. It has certainly helped me to find like minded people and i have no doubt that if I was sitting on the edge of theism/atheism I would be a devout atheist after a few Google searches. I have a few friends and colleagues who up until recently would have considered themselves christians but after watching some of the debates on YouTube and reading just some of the material they are now atheists or at the very least extremely doubtful (Pascal's Wager at play).

So "has the internet increased Atheism in society?" personally I'd say yes. I truly believe any logical person, who has the slightest bit of doubt, that sits down and reads through the available material and debates will walk away enlightened. It has to be approached logically though, and not through "faith" tinted glasses, which is often the first stumbling block.

EDIT: "Faith tinted glasses."

JaTochNietDan

I don't think there's any doubt that it has increased Atheistic views in society. Knowledge is the best way to undo the indoctrination that people received when they were younger.

Before people wouldn't have thought about it, they would have just been good little sheep and followed everything they were indoctrinated with from an early age. The would never have even had the chance to see what the rest of the world was like and have been trained to avoid any of the rare circumstances where they might come across someone who challenges their belief. That still exists today, this idea that you are not allowed to question anything, you need to follow everything you are told and if you don't, you will be damned. Fear not because god is a forgiving creature and he will forgive you if you repent. Promises of being saved keeping the donations high and hence keeping the business going, keeping people trapped in that circle.

However things have changed, now a huge percent of the world is able to share their views on the internet and discuss these topics. Everyone around them is no longer the same. There is more and more of a "temptation" for religious believers to go against their teachings of not questioning anything and actually starting to look into it. It seems that this has vastly increased the easy-going nature of people when it comes to religion, often people will call themselves "spiritual" as opposed to associating with a structured religion. Less people will call themselves Atheists, or Agnostics and even less will call themselves Agnostic Atheists or Gnostic Atheists, most likely because these people simply do not care enough to use those labels to identify themselves or are even aware of what they really mean.

The internet has opened people up to other world views, it has opened the box for anyone to look outside of at any time. It has made knowledge readily accessible. You might even find that a vast majority of people on the internet are Atheists or fall into a similar category. This may be due to many reasons, it could be that simply the Atheists are a louder minority or it could be that it has opened many people's eyes.

sbsquarepants

phanley wrote: »

Has the internet increased Atheism in society?

I would say almost certainly. Another one of it's unforseen benefits to humanity!

A lot of what kept people "religious" was ignorance - lack of knowledge of other religions crazy claims, lack of knowledge of well thought out arguments against what was usually a better educated and more eloquent clergy.
Whereas 10, 20 or 30 years ago an agnostic child for example would often be put firmly in his place by a stern talking priest or nun, these days the same child can have grade A intellectual heavyweight answers to hand.
I argued my case as a kid as best i could, but i was often out maneuvered and out gunned. However, if i'd had epicurus, russel, hitchens, dawkins or even the flying spaghetti monster in my corner i'd have ran riot!!

Gbear

I don't think it's a coincidence that as education increases, rates of religion decrease. The internet is just another educational tool.

Kivaro

Zamboni wrote: »

There is no guaranteed path to logic for the species unfortunately.
Personally I would envisage that the species will eradicate itself long before organic atheism and logic could become ubiquitous.
And I am usually a glass half full kind of guy...

Have "Faith", my child.

Evolution will be the winner (in all aspects of the statement).
We will eventually evolve as a species to a time where rational thinkers will out-breed the hocus pocus believers. And then they will be the non-believers (of rational/logical thought).

Ciaran0

Kivaro wrote: »

Have "Faith", my child.

Evolution will be the winner (in all aspects of the statement).
We will eventually evolve as a species to a time where rational thinkers will out-breed the hocus pocus believers. And then they will be the non-believers (of rational/logical thought).

Unfortunately I'm not sure if that will come to pass. You see when civilisation reaches the point we've reached, we've removed ourselves from evolutionary ladder in a sense. Not that we won't evolve any more, but that we no longer evolve by natural selection.

In the world where medicine makes people live longer and have more children, the 'fittest' are no longer the only ones surviving. Therefore evolution's gonna slow way down, and the smart, rational thinking folk aren't going to be the only ones to survive. Evolution won't rid us of the stupid unfortunately, because the actions of the smart will help them survive.

Education. Now that's what'll kill off the stupid!

It's education that will save us from God.

MrPudding

Kivaro wrote: »

Have "Faith", my child.

Evolution will be the winner (in all aspects of the statement).
We will eventually evolve as a species to a time where rational thinkers will out-breed the hocus pocus believers. And then they will be the non-believers (of rational/logical thought).

You need to watch "Idiocracy."

MrP

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

It might have been cold logic which made the final cut, but it always seemed to me that much of the initial damage was done by contra-religious humor.

That is an excellent point. Humour is a great segway to get a point across. How many people saw that Simpsons bit where Homer refused to go to church citing, "What if we picked the wrong God and we're just making the real God madder and madder?" and then realised that it is actually a fairly reasonable point.

Sarky

Mockery is insanely powerful. It can topple anything. But it topples bullsh*t way faster.