Jackpot overraking

Formation

The next time ye are playing cash in the jackpot will ye pay attention to how much is being raked.

I am convinced they are overraking (basically robbing the players) each and every hour of every night.

Advertised rake is e4 per person per half hour so they should only be raking e72 per hour per full 9 handed table but it seems to be at least e200 per hour and often enough tops e300 per hour.

C.S.M.F

i think you need to go to spec savers old chap the blue chips are a euro not 25euro im a regular player at the jackpot and in my mind they are the best and cheapest rake in town and the best team so like i said take your beer goggles off you Nonce and pay attention

curehead

I always assumed rake was like a percentage of the pot and only pots over a certain amount and pots with more than two players involved
how the hell do they take €4 off everyone every half hour ?

Formation

Its a guideline I believe, one that they consistantly go over due to a high turnover of drunk students who never count the rake.

There is no regulation for these places which are registered as private members clubs.

They also report a loss to the revenue each year which is bull for anyone that sees the money they take in from all activities but its a cash business...

sandin

Formation wrote: »

The next time ye are playing cash in the jackpot will ye pay attention to how much is being raked.

I am convinced they are overraking (basically robbing the players) each and every hour of every night.

Advertised rake is e4 per person per half hour so they should only be raking e72 per hour per full 9 handed table but it seems to be at least e200 per hour and often enough tops e300 per hour.

Formation wrote: »

Its a guideline I believe, one that they consistantly go over due to a high turnover of drunk students who never count the rake.

There is no regulation for these places which are registered as private members clubs.

They also report a loss to the revenue each year which is bull for anyone that sees the money they take in from all activities but its a cash business...

Obviously you are someone who had a bad day of losses there, but making unfounded accusations as above against a reputable club can see you lose a hell of a lot more.

Publish defamatory and libelous accusation in a public forum against a company and you can have yourself sued and lose a hell of a lot of money.

If Jackpot or anyone with an interest in the jackpot sees this, my guess is they will take immediate legal action to redeem their excellent name.

Formation

Someone from the jackpot would already have seen this post and they are not going to libel because I expressed an opinion that they are raking more than the advertised amount.

Going from your post I would say there is a fair chance you are affiliated to the "excellent" jackpot.

Regardless I would speculate that they are quite a profitable business and an auditor would find interesting results.

mdwexford

sandin wrote: »

Obviously you are someone who had a bad day of losses there, but making unfounded accusations as above against a reputable club can see you lose a hell of a lot more.

Publish defamatory and libelous accusation in a public forum against a company and you can have yourself sued and lose a hell of a lot of money.

If Jackpot or anyone with an interest in the jackpot sees this, my guess is they will take immediate legal action to redeem their excellent name.

Lol yeah im sure The Jackpot are hiring solicitors as we speak.

thejackpot

Dear Formation et all

Firstly let me introduce myself. My name is Paul O' Reilly and I am the Managing Director of the The Jackpot Card Club. Please excuse my tardiness in replying, I have been on annual leave.

While I appreciate comments and suggestions made by members regarding the club and its operations and we continually endeavour to maintain and improve our standards, I am afraid your statement is totally unfounded.

The staff who deal in the club whilst being trained in how to deal, they are equally as skilled in ensuring that the rake is never 'over-raked' at any time. Pots being raked at up to €200-€300 per hour would result in there being no club at all. We have never tried to 'hoodwink' our member like this and treat them with the respect they deserve and the courtesy of not treating them as if they do not know what is being raked. Whether a person is sober or 'had a few' we have a responsibility at the club to ensure that each person is treated fairly and with courtesy and respect.

While this may be happening at other locations I don't know, I can ensure you that the advertised rake is the rake that is being taken per hour. More often than not the rake per hour is less than the advertised amount as we can not rake certain pots if there is not enough cash in the pot. We continually strive to ensure that the rake at The Jackpot Card Club is as competitive if not better than other clubs in Dublin. Our successful Cash League is testament that we operate fairly and honestly, unless every single player that plays is unable to calculate the rake in the club which I doubt.

Secondly I do not take too kindly to the tone of your 'cash business' and 'auditor' statements but I really have nothing much to say on that. You are entitled to your opinion, even as incorrect as it is. Also no posters here are affiliated with the club and maybe said persons actually do enjoy the club.

I hope I have answered your points appropriately.

Kind regards


Paul O' Reilly

Formation

Paul,

I have regularly seen pots raked for E20+.

Assuming 25 hands per hour and an advertised rake of E72/hour for a full table how can you justify that level of rake on one hand?

Why have you not introduced a cap on the rake per hand like a lot of other cardrooms?

thejackpot

Formation

Please PM me your name. I would like to check the rake sheets on some dates you were in please.

Regards

Paul

Formation

Thats a bullsh1t answer Paul, there are at least 5 hands per hour where the rake is hitting E20 every night especially between midnight and 3am. You don't need to check rakesheets. You need to cap the rake.

thejackpot

Dear Sir

It would seem you know my business better than I considering you know the rake every night. I have advised you that the rake is never this high, never has and never will be. I reiterate that I do not take our members for fools and this figure of €20 you have is not the case and is ridiculous.

I am not getting into a argument with you and considering you have stated below that my comments are 'bullsh1t' following my response and also considering I know that the figures are correct and there is no over-raking occuring, I will leave it at that.

Regards

Paul

Formation

An easy solution to the problem is to have a E10 cap on the rake. At roughly 25 hands per hour this will easily allow you to reach your target of E72 per hour. Why do you not employ a cap on your rake?

Secondly what would happen if one of your members complained immeadiately after a hand that they were raked E25 in that hand in your standard full ring 1/2 game?

tipp86

Lol ignore the idiot imo.

Formation

tipp1986 wrote: »

Lol ignore the idiot imo.

considering your dealing background tipp you may possibly give some insight into how a E10 cap for a club whose advertised aim is to rake E72 an hour is idiotic?

C.S.M.F

Formation can you even spell poker ?????

Formation

C.S.M.F wrote: »

i think you need to go to spec savers old chap the blue chips are a euro not 25euro im a regular player at the jackpot and in my mind they are the best and cheapest rake in town and the best team so like i said take your beer goggles off you Nonce and pay attention

C.S.M.F wrote: »

Formation can you even spell poker ?????

You signed up a new account and your only posts are in this thread.

You are affiliated with the Jackpot in some form.

Formation

Paul,

1. Why have you not introduced a cap on the rake per hand?

2. What would happen if someone complained about being raked €25 on a hand immediately after the hand was completed in your standard 1/2 cash game?

tipp86

Coming on here is pointless. If you have an issue just watch exactly what is been raked and bring it up in the club.

If i had an issue that is the route i would take.

Formation

On here the public are watching and he has to remain professional.

In the club at 2am if you call for the floorman and ask him to justify why you just got raked E25 in one hand you will be told to either sit down and be quiet or kicked out of the place.

As a player Tipp Im surprised that you have no interest in questioning the rake.

Obviously I dont expect them to match the online cap due to higher overheads per player but I definately dont expect them to basically rob me.

They made the choice to advertise their rake as E4 per person per half hour. When the rake significently more than that they are stealing from their customers.

A E10 cap would allow them to reach E72/hour easily. Why do they not have a cap and how can they justify raking any hand for an amount in excess of E20 which they do regularly!

sandin

Formation wrote: »

Someone from the jackpot would already have seen this post and they are not going to libel because I expressed an opinion that they are raking more than the advertised amount.

Going from your post I would say there is a fair chance you are affiliated to the "excellent" jackpot.

Regardless I would speculate that they are quite a profitable business and an auditor would find interesting results.

Please check through my 600+ post and try find a link to anything from Jackpot. I might have mentioned the fitwilliam once as I was there once as well.

I saw the post and replied from a business point of view. Private clubs in Ireland operate under the same regulations as any ohter company in ireland and have to provide audited accounts on an annual basis, are subject to revenue audits and must account for their cash in the same way as any and every other cash business, from your local deli to your tescos.

My guess the reason why they have not had this thread closed is that your posts show that you havn't a clue what you are talking about and that it is quite obvious you have a personal issue against the club and quite possibly lost heavily and rather than blame yourself, are blaming the club.

If the club over raked, my guess is there would be no players as the choice of venue for poker players in Dublin is quite good and a ten minute walk would bring you to 3/4 other establishments.

Formation

1. I didnt have large losses in that club to motivate this thread.

2. A large part of their customer base is drunk young people falling out of the pubs and clubs on hardcourt st who dont have enough sense to avoid this place. They are not counting rake.
Most of them lose a lot of what little money they have playing roulette/blackjack even though they are so drunk a responsible barman would refuse to serve them more alcohol.

3. Do you not think asking a club why they do not have a cap on their rake is a valid question?

TrueDub

Formation wrote: »

3. Do you not think asking a club why they do not have a cap on their rake is a valid question?

It is. You asked it, you received an answer. You didn't like the answer.

From my point of view, your best option is to exercise your consumer right of choice, and not go there again.

thejackpot

If the club over raked, my guess is there would be no players as the choice of venue for poker players in Dublin is quite good and a ten minute walk would bring you to 3/4 other establishments.. A Valid Correct Point.

In the club at 2am if you call for the floorman and ask him to justify why you just got raked E25 in one hand you will be told to either sit down and be quiet or kicked out of the place. An Invalid Incorrect Point. Never has happened never will.

Coming on here is pointless. If you have an issue just watch exactly what is been raked and bring it up in the club.
If i had an issue that is the route i would take. Another Valid Point

When the rake significently more than that they are stealing from their customers Another invalid incorrect point.

To summarise: Your points have no basis of fact or truth. If another person posts a thread that is in disagreement with you, then that person is also immediately affiliated with the club. It would seem an opinion contrary to your own is not an opinion worth noting.

I have re-iterated that these things have never or will never happen. I do not have the time to be on this thread with you every day while you educate me on how to run a business. I am not going to enter smart quips or comments or keep bashing this thing back and forward either as it is going no where. I am not going to continually repeat myself as I have made my points in a clear and concise manner for you to understand. Considering this is the first time I have heard of €25 euro rake from a pot, I find it hard to believe that for the last number of years all the members have just tolerated it. I think not! I will finish on that note and will not reply to any more of your comments for the reasons I have outlined above

Kind regards

Paul

Formation

Paul you have cherry picked bits and pieces to suit yourself.

I only asked two questions!

On the first question we can agree to disagree on the total amount raked each hour.


My only other question was:

If one of your customers gets raked E20+ in one hand and complains straight away to both the dealer and floor person what would happen? Are you saying that your customers will NEVER be raked E20+ in one hand in your 1/2 cash game? If so what is the maximum they will be raked?

I really don't understand why you won't answer this question unless you have something to hide.

premierstone

Formation wrote: »

Paul you have cherry picked bits and pieces to suit yourself.

I only asked two questions!

On the first question we can agree to disagree on the total amount raked each hour.


My only other question was:

If one of your customers gets raked E20+ in one hand and complains straight away to both the dealer and floor person what would happen? Are you saying that your customers will NEVER be raked E20+ in one hand in your 1/2 cash game? If so what is the maximum they will be raked?

I really don't understand why you won't answer this question unless you have something to hide.

Would you ever climb back under whatever rock you came out from under, don't know about anyone else but I for one am actually hopeing now that the Jackpot have being sytematically over raking just this particular imbecile!

Formation

premierstone wrote: »

Would you ever climb back under whatever rock you came out from under, don't know about anyone else but I for one am actually hopeing now that the Jackpot have being sytematically over raking just this particular imbecile!

paul has said they will never rake a customer e20+ in one hand which implies there is a cap. I would like to know what that is.

Whats the problem with that?

Would you go into a shop, pick out a can of coke and pay whatever the shopkeeper decides to charge you off the top of his head? Its a fair question which he has not answered.

Formation

Paul,

This is probably the best way to put an end to this discussion while being transparent about your rake structure...

Can you detail how much would be raked out of this pot?

9 handed e1/2 game:

preflop:
UTG open to e20
UTG+1 calls e20
MP1 folds
MP2 calls e20
MP3 folds
CO calls e20
BUTTON calls e20
SB folds
BB goes all in for e80
UTG calls e60
UTG+1 calls e60
MP2 folds
CO folds
BUTTON calls e60

flop:
UTG bets e150
UTG+1 folds
BUTTON calls e150

turn:
UTG checks
BUTTON bets e250 all in
UTG folds

showdown between BB and BUTTON.

BB: AhAc
BUTTON: KhKc

board: 2c,4c,5h,9s,Jd

Paul can you tell me how much would be raked out of the above hand and detail how you decided on the amount of the rake?

Quickest way to end this.

Formation

Here is another interesting thread about the way the Jackpot treats their customers related to rake.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055746445


I can see from the thread located here that you advertised your rake this month as €4.50 per person per half hr for €50 games. That does not tell me what rake I should expect to pay in the above hand.

As you can see Paul these threads have a habit of coming back so it is in your interest to detail the rake for the above hand.

Lplated

Perhaps if OP had made his initial sallies in the manner and tone of that latest two posts the thread might have got somewhere...

OP, you've obviously seen or experienced something along the lines of which you complain, or alternatively believe that you have seen/experienced.

In either case, as Casinos/Clubs are unregulated, and as there is no legal route under which to bring a case like this related to gambling, you probably aren't going to get very far.

Some one else advised that if you don't like the way a company does it's business, then go elsewhere.

You could of course return to the Jackpot, and the should you experience something similar to what you raise in the thread - immediately bring it to the attention of the Manager on duty - and then post about it - would probably be a more effective method of bringing the issue to a head.

FWIW - i've played in the jackpot a couple of times [10 maybe] over the last 5 years, tournaments only, and have no view/opinion on the accuracy or otherwise of your complaint one way or the other [i.e. i'm not a shill for or against anyone.]

Lplated

thejackpot wrote: »

I have re-iterated that these things have never or will never happen. I do not have the time to be on this thread with you every day while you educate me on how to run a business. I am not going to enter smart quips or comments or keep bashing this thing back and forward either as it is going no where. I am not going to continually repeat myself as I have made my points in a clear and concise manner for you to understand. Considering this is the first time I have heard of €25 euro rake from a pot, I find it hard to believe that for the last number of years all the members have just tolerated it. I think not! I will finish on that note and will not reply to any more of your comments for the reasons I have outlined above

Kind regards

Paul

You do seem to be able to find the time to update this thread a couple of times every day though -

http://www.irishpokerboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14588&page=3

Just saying...

Formation

Having been asked a simple question as to how much they would rake out of a certain pot their silence is proof enough that they are robbing their players.

TrueDub

Formation wrote: »

Having been asked a simple question as to how much they would rake out of a certain pot their silence is proof enough that they are robbing their players.

And you've been offered several ways to resolve this to your satisfaction, but refused to take them. This indicates, to me at least, that you have a grudge of some sort and aren't interested in a resolution, just in attacking the club.

My 2c.

OnTheCounter

The jackpot wants to discuss the matter privately in the club.

The OP wants them to answer publicy here on this forum which is understandable.

I would also like to know how much would be raked out of that pot before I play in the Jackpot again.

TrueDub

OnTheCounter wrote: »

The jackpot wants to discuss the matter privately in the club.

The OP wants them to answer publicy here on this forum which is understandable.

I would also like to know how much would be raked out of that pot before I play in the Jackpot again.

They're exercising their choice not to reply.

You're exercising your right as a consumer not to play there, which was a course of action suggested to the OP a long time ago.

OnTheCounter

At least people are aware now and might pay more attention.

If, for example, in a session I would be raked 50% more in the jackpot I would consider travelling to the Fitz or Voodoo instead.

Regardless I will be paying more attention to how much I'm being raked.

DAMO72

LOL

OnTheCounter

The more I think about it the dodgier it seems.

I would think if the specific hand question was put to any other cardroom they would answer.

I realise the OP was a bit out of line with the way they went about the whole thread but now other customers are asking.

DAMO72

Formation wrote: »

Paul,

This is probably the best way to put an end to this discussion while being transparent about your rake structure...

Can you detail how much would be raked out of this pot?

9 handed e1/2 game:

preflop:
UTG open to e20
UTG+1 calls e20
MP1 folds
MP2 calls e20
MP3 folds
CO calls e20
BUTTON calls e20
SB folds
BB goes all in for e80
UTG calls e60
UTG+1 calls e60
MP2 folds
CO folds
BUTTON calls e60

flop:
UTG bets e150
UTG+1 folds
BUTTON calls e150

turn:
UTG checks
BUTTON bets e250 all in
UTG folds

showdown between BB and BUTTON.

BB: AhAc
BUTTON: KhKc

board: 2c,4c,5h,9s,Jd

Paul can you tell me how much would be raked out of the above hand and detail how you decided on the amount of the rake?

Quickest way to end this.

What did UTG open with??

MP62

DAMO72 wrote: »

Formation wrote: »

Paul,

This is probably the best way to put an end to this discussion while being transparent about your rake structure...

Can you detail how much would be raked out of this pot?

9 handed e1/2 game:

preflop:
UTG open to e20
UTG+1 calls e20
MP1 folds
MP2 calls e20
MP3 folds
CO calls e20
BUTTON calls e20
SB folds
BB goes all in for e80
UTG calls e60
UTG+1 calls e60
MP2 folds
CO folds
BUTTON calls e60

flop:
UTG bets e150
UTG+1 folds
BUTTON calls e150

turn:
UTG checks
BUTTON bets e250 all in
UTG folds

showdown between BB and BUTTON.

BB: AhAc
BUTTON: KhKc

board: 2c,4c,5h,9s,Jd

Paul can you tell me how much would be raked out of the above hand and detail how you decided on the amount of the rake?

Quickest way to end this.

What did UTG open with??

Jacks or better to open.

premierstone

MP62 wrote: »

Jacks or better to open.

Wasn't opened the previous hand, so Queens it was, unlucky, coooler!

Formation

UTG was drunk was had watched too much high stakes poker so tried to win the hand with 72.

premierstone

Formation wrote: »

UTG was drunk was had watched too much high stakes poker so tried to win the hand with 72.

Doesn't make sense why would he fold on the turn then, he was drawing to trips shur??

Formation

premierstone wrote: »

Doesn't make sense why would he fold on the turn then, he was drawing to trips shur??

he said he got a bad feeling about that hand. He thought BB was bluffing preflop but realised the button was playing his one hand an hour and more than likely wasn't bluffing. He said he almost called but seen the button look at the dealer which is a dead giveaway apparantly.

How are things Paul? Did you figure out the rake on this hand yet?

If it makes a difference BB is a bit tipsy and the button was on the double vodkas in coppers and he was thirsty.

pkr_ennis

Pretty interesting thread - I think it's hard to accuse the Jackpot of over raking as it's definitely in their best interest to rake the correct amount and keep the games going strong for as long as possible thereby attracting more and more people to the club enabling the games to become more and more successful - at least this was the philosophy behind the highly successful games I ran in this country.

There could be a crew of dealers helping themselves - which is pretty rare - even in an un-regulated gambling scene like there is in this country.

I've heard many good reports about the Jackpot from players and dealers alike - and to be honest, bad games usually die pretty quickly. So my money is on the Jackpot to be running a fair game.

My gut says there may be some sprinkling of truth in this thread - but I worked those games for twenty years and am as paranoid as hell!

I remember when the EPT first started up, there was often a scandi keeping count of the rake every hour on a sheet of paper - that'd keep it right don't ya think?

Formation

Somewhere like Ennis with a small player pool you would have to be careful with the rake or you would be out of business in a short time especially if there were no table games supplementing revenues.

The Jackpots Dublin city centre location allows them to have a very high turnover of players so customer satasfaction is not as crucial to their bottom line.

Why won't they state how much they would rake from the hand and be done with the thread? Any other cardroom manager would tell you straight away.

Lplated

Formation wrote: »

Why won't they state how much they would rake from the hand and be done with the thread? Any other cardroom manager would tell you straight away.

Probably as easy to just let the thread slowly die away to the second page etc... Then they don't have to answer at all!

tournamentnoel

having played int he jackpot in a previous life, i have to admit that i always had concerned re raking.....generally the drunker the crowd - the easier the rake - as regards trusting a cardclub or a casino, sure they wouldnt want to take your money, would they? My advice - excellent local game in various pubs - good fun - no crazy roulette tables and blackjack to part u with ur hardearned cash.....dens of inequity like the jackpot,. fitz and voodoo should all be closed as ahealth hazrards - and never belive whta they tell u in the clubs - they'd say mass - again just my opinion - tournament noel

augustus gloop

the jackpots silence is somewhat deafening on this one, formation may have a point here, Paul came here with some well worded answers but when proposed a real life situation... no response.

tournamentnoel

what is the purpose of a casino - to part people with thier hardearned cash....have they any morality - this is a question of money, not morality.....are casinos (not just the jakpot) overraking - when 10 drunk people arrive in a cardclub / casino, would they have any idea if pots were being overraked answer) no - simply people, casinos are dens of inequity for the tormented - only function to deprive people of thier cash - :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: - my personal experience of the jackpot was essentially negative - simply place for students to sit and hatch and rob boozers - not aplace for proper poker players - simply a dive - avoid peeps - play in your local pub game with locals and enjoy a pint and give the jackpot and its cronies a wide berth.......

Lplated

To be fair - they are a business and entitled to charge for their services.

Obviously if you dislike the amount they charge you can leave and not pay that amount.

The question in this thread is slightly different - i.e. the clarity of the rake/fee in a specific context.

Regardless, it's open to people who read the thread to draw their own conclusions on the deafening silence.....