Confiscation of false ID

2qk4u

Working on the door of a Hotel/Pub/Nightclub and finding that more and more of the ID being produced is forged/fake, what is the legal requirement in relation to confiscation of forgeries ?
I have been told that as long as I am convinced they are forged or do not belong to the person using it I can hold onto the ID and later leave into the local Garda station.
The ID I am referring to is forged Passports and Driving Licences.

Does anyone know the exact legality to this please ?

IrishAm

A passport is the property of the Department of Foreign Affairs. If it is being used by someone who was not issued the passport, then yes, you can confiscate it and hand it in to the local Garda station.

krd

It's a pretty serious offence to have a forged passport or drivers licence.

If someone is caught with forgeries of either, they will be in big trouble with the gaurds.

If you hand the forgeries into the guards, those kids could be in very big trouble.

miller50841

You are well within your rights to do it and glad to see you bring this up. The job I am in I am shown fake passes and ones you couldnt even read the name off of them. Another thing thats been done now all the time with social welfare bus passes is they are bringing another person(companion) and they are only permitted free travel for themselves alone. Really hope people start to cop on with things like this. Also this may seem only small but often leads to something more been abused.

2qk4u

Anyone else have any ideas on this ? or where would I find the information ?

CIARAN_BOYLE

miller50841 wrote: »

You are well within your rights to do it and glad to see you bring this up. The job I am in I am shown fake passes and ones you couldnt even read the name off of them. Another thing thats been done now all the time with social welfare bus passes is they are bringing another person(companion) and they are only permitted free travel for themselves alone. Really hope people start to cop on with things like this. Also this may seem only small but often leads to something more been abused.

Are you sure that social welfare bus passes are not allowed bring a companion.

I know my Dad's buspass allows him to bring someone with him but that might because he is on disability rather than social welfare.

OP I'd honestly ask your boss for advice on the legalities of confiscating ID. As you are working the door for them you would be seen as an agent for them and they could be liable if you do the wrong thing so consult with them.

jblack

IrishAm wrote: »

A passport is the property of the Department of Foreign Affairs. If it is being used by someone who was not issued the passport, then yes, you can confiscate it and hand it in to the local Garda station.

Would you point to the legislation or precedent that gives one private citizen the right to seize property from another, or on another's behalf?

MagicSean

The correct procedure would be to offer them a choice. Surrender the ID or wait until the Gardaí come to deal with them. Forgery is an arrestable offence so if a person decides not to wait for the Gardaí Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1997 gives a civilian a power to arrest them and hold them for Gardaí.

It would be important for you to hand any false instruments over to Gardaí as retaining posession of them may leave you liable to criminal charges.

RangeR

2qk4u wrote: »

Working on the door of a Hotel/Pub/Nightclub and finding that more and more of the ID being produced is forged/fake, what is the legal requirement in relation to confiscation of forgeries ?

• Let them in without giving away what you suspect.
• Call the guards.
• Point offenders out to the Guards
• Let the Guards deal with it there and then.

However, you maybe opening yourself open to letting under age into the establishment

2qk4u

RangeR wrote: »

• Let them in without giving away what you suspect.
• Call the guards.
• Point offenders out to the Guards
• Let the Guards deal with it there and then.

However, you maybe opening yourself open to letting under age into the establishment

I can see where you coming from but in reality its not very practical, it is an offence to be in a licenced premises between certain times if you are between 18 and 21 years of age and do not have ID.
Also the Gardai are very busy at times and the Night Club could close before a Garda turns up to deal with the offender.

miller50841

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Are you sure that social welfare bus passes are not allowed bring a companion.

I know my Dad's buspass allows him to bring someone with him but that might because he is on disability rather than social welfare.

OP I'd honestly ask your boss for advice on the legalities of confiscating ID. As you are working the door for them you would be seen as an agent for them and they could be liable if you do the wrong thing so consult with them.

All passes are different there are a lot of fake ones and a lot will have written on the front PASS HOLDER ONLY but a lot are bringing their friends along with them.

Victor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Are you sure that social welfare bus passes are not allowed bring a companion.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

Spouses, civil partners, cohabitants and companions

If you have a Free Travel Pass and you are married, in a civil partnership or cohabiting, you are entitled to a Free Travel Pass which allows your partner to accompany you free of charge when travelling. (This does not apply to people under age 66 who are getting Carer's Allowance or who are nominated carers for people getting Constant Attendance Allowance or Prescribed Relatives Allowance from the Department of Social Protection).

In addition, some people who are unable to use the pass because they are unable to travel alone may get a Companion Free Travel Pass. This allows the holder to be accompanied by any person over 16 years of age, free of charge.

Farcear

I believe that there is legislation permitting banks from retaining counterfeit currency -- perhaps it is the same or a related act?

IrishAm

jblack wrote: »

Would you point to the legislation or precedent that gives one private citizen the right to seize property from another, or on another's behalf?

Ah, but an Irish passport is not private property. They always remain the property of the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

If I was in the OP's position, I would:

-Ask for another form of i.d.

-If that was refused, I would inform the patron that I was about to call the Gardai, so as to verify that he/she was indeed the holder of said passport.

-Call the Gardai, informing them that Ive took possession of the passport, that I didn't believe that it belonged to the person in front of me, so to as to allow them inspect it. Then I would ask the Gardai for further instruction as to what to do.

transvestite

2qk4u wrote: »

Working on the door of a Hotel/Pub/Nightclub and finding that more and more of the ID being produced is forged/fake, what is the legal requirement in relation to confiscation of forgeries ?
I have been told that as long as I am convinced they are forged or do not belong to the person using it I can hold onto the ID and later leave into the local Garda station.
The ID I am referring to is forged Passports and Driving Licences.

Does anyone know the exact legality to this please ?

Don't be an asshole you we young once yourself. Hand it back to them and say don't come back. Why create problems for people.

2qk4u

transvestite wrote: »

Don't be an asshole you we young once yourself. Hand it back to them and say don't come back. Why create problems for people.

Because these are the same people that break into peoples homes to steal passports, and break into peoples cars to steal driving licences.
These are the same people that think it is absolutely fine to break the law at any given chance to benefit themselves.
These are the same people that come to my work place and try to sneak in without paying at the door, they are the same people that steal other peoples drinks, wallets, handbags ect.
These are the same people that abuse me every night I work, they spit at me, the attack me, they try stick a glass in my face or break a bottle over my head, some try stab me and some promise to shoot me and my family.

And Im the asshole ?

Does anyone have any other (legal) input ?

DylanII

2qk4u wrote: »

Because these are the same people that break into peoples homes to steal passports, and break into peoples cars to steal driving licences.
These are the same people that think it is absolutely fine to break the law at any given chance to benefit themselves.
These are the same people that come to my work place and try to sneak in without paying at the door, they are the same people that steal other peoples drinks, wallets, handbags ect.
These are the same people that abuse me every night I work, they spit at me, the attack me, they try stick a glass in my face or break a bottle over my head, some try stab me and some promise to shoot me and my family.

And Im the asshole ?

Does anyone have any other (legal) input ?

A fake/forged passport/licence then fair enough.

But are you saying that everyone who trys to get in using someone elses passport/licence is going to attack you?

2qk4u

DylanII wrote: »

A fake/forged passport/licence then fair enough.

But are you saying that everyone who trys to get in using someone elses passport/licence is going to attack you?

I think you might be missing the point... :rolleyes:

dillo2k10

2qk4u wrote: »

DylanII wrote: »

A fake/forged passport/licence then fair enough.

But are you saying that everyone who trys to get in using someone elses passport/licence is going to attack you?

I think you might be missing the point... :rolleyes:

I see that now

But still most of the time they will just be borrowed from friends

2qk4u

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I see that now

But still most of the time they will just be borrowed from friends

Agreed, I know most of it is just harmless, just kids chancing their way in, its the very obvious fakes and kids of 15 and 16 trying to get into night clubs that Im concerned about.

0O7

if the passport is FORGED then this is considered an arrestable offence,
what you COULD do is detain the person that gives it to you on the spot and call gardai.
you have this power under Section 4 Criminal Law Act.b (aka citizens arrest)

(however when you have them "detained" contact the gardai straight away.

Only do this with forged documents tho... not if the passport is real etc

also dont do this unless your certain it is forged.

AngeGal

Agree with earlier poster who said tell them to go away. I suppose maybe confisicate if its clearly fake but I wouldnt go ringing the guards about it, we all chanced our arm when we were young.

TheChizler

You'd want to be very confident it was fake. I had my (new at the time) Garda Age Card taken off me in Tesco by a security guard who'd gone mad on power. Wouldn't believe me that it was real. Got it back but if I'd followed if up with the Guards he could have got in serious trouble.

Payton

I worked the doors for a number of years so i know exactly where you are coming from. We were told by a member of the Gardai that we had the right to take the "fake/tampered with" ID from them, passport, age card, or drivers permit and hand them into the Garda station at the end of the shift. The owner then had to go and collect their "fake/tampered" ID and explain why it was being used.
Just pop into the nearest Garda station where you work and inquire there and explain your point to them.

2qk4u

on the verge wrote: »

I worked the doors for a number of years so i know exactly where you are coming from. We were told by a member of the Gardai that we had the right to take the "fake/tampered with" ID from them, passport, age card, or drivers permit and hand them into the Garda station at the end of the shift. The owner then had to go and collect their "fake/tampered" ID and explain why it was being used.
Just pop into the nearest Garda station where you work and inquire there and explain your point to them.

Have done this already and was told the same, just trying to find out if there is law to back it up, Im not doubting what I have been told by the local Garda station but its always nice to see in writing/print where it originates.

I was working last night and the doorman standing beside me was handed a driving licence by a lad that looked about 15, it was probably the most obviously tampered with ive every seen, anyway without warning the doorman ripped it up ant through it in this guys face, I thought I was seeing things...
A bit extreme I think and defiantly not my style.

MagicSean

0O7 wrote: »

if the passport is FORGED then this is considered an arrestable offence,
what you COULD do is detain the person that gives it to you on the spot and call gardai.
you have this power under Section 4 Criminal Law Act.b (aka citizens arrest)

(however when you have them "detained" contact the gardai straight away.

Only do this with forged documents tho... not if the passport is real etc

also dont do this unless your certain it is forged.

Section 26 provides for an arrestable offence of using a flase instrument so it need not be a passport.

TheChizler wrote: »

You'd want to be very confident it was fake. I had my (new at the time) Garda Age Card taken off me in Tesco by a security guard who'd gone mad on power. Wouldn't believe me that it was real. Got it back but if I'd followed if up with the Guards he could have got in serious trouble.

I doubt it. Theft requires an act of dishonesty.

2qk4u wrote: »

Have done this already and was told the same, just trying to find out if there is law to back it up, Im not doubting what I have been told by the local Garda station but its always nice to see in writing/print where it originates.

I was working last night and the doorman standing beside me was handed a driving licence by a lad that looked about 15, it was probably the most obviously tampered with ive every seen, anyway without warning the doorman ripped it up ant through it in this guys face, I thought I was seeing things...
A bit extreme I think and defiantly not my style.

Extreme and illegal.

frozenfrozen

Here could be something ground breaking; explain the problem to them.

If I ask for the student rate at the cinema, and I can't produce a student ID card, I'm not told to fcuk off, or laughed at, or any treated any other arrogant way which I see bouncers treat people all too often. The person says something to the effect of "sorry, I can't do anything without seeing your student id. I know you look like a student, but you can't prove that and we would both get in trouble if something happened"

If all bouncers were nice, the amount of conflict between them all and people not getting in would be hugely reduced.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, just turn the 17 year olds with their friends/cousins/whatevers passports away, because in 6 months they're going to be in a legal position to choose where they want to drink and socialize.

Fake passports are a big deal if someone is trying to get into a different country, but these people are just trying to go out in a pub, yes it's still illegal, so turn them down, but they don't deserve to be labelled as the type to steal passports or rob cars. They're just a year / few months shy of doing something completely legally.

MagicSean

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Here could be something ground breaking; explain the problem to them.

If I ask for the student rate at the cinema, and I can't produce a student ID card, I'm not told to fcuk off, or laughed at, or any treated any other arrogant way which I see bouncers treat people all too often. The person says something to the effect of "sorry, I can't do anything without seeing your student id. I know you look like a student, but you can't prove that and we would both get in trouble if something happened"

If all bouncers were nice, the amount of conflict between them all and people not getting in would be hugely reduced.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, just turn the 17 year olds with their friends/cousins/whatevers passports away, because in 6 months they're going to be in a legal position to choose where they want to drink and socialize.

Fake passports are a big deal if someone is trying to get into a different country, but these people are just trying to go out in a pub, yes it's still illegal, so turn them down, but they don't deserve to be labelled as the type to steal passports or rob cars. They're just a year / few months shy of doing something completely legally.

Explain what? They know what they are doing. They are risking the jobs of all the employees in the establishment.

frozenfrozen

MagicSean wrote: »

Explain what? They know what they are doing. They are risking the jobs of all the employees in the establishment.

So tell them "I know what you're doing." instead of causing trouble.

If you want to get into that, they are giving the employees their job. One can't exist without the other, moot point.

Fuh Q

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Here could be something ground breaking; explain the problem to them.

If I ask for the student rate at the cinema, and I can't produce a student ID card, I'm not told to fcuk off, or laughed at, or any treated any other arrogant way which I see bouncers treat people all too often. The person says something to the effect of "sorry, I can't do anything without seeing your student id. I know you look like a student, but you can't prove that and we would both get in trouble if something happened"

If all bouncers were nice, the amount of conflict between them all and people not getting in would be hugely reduced.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, just turn the 17 year olds with their friends/cousins/whatevers passports away, because in 6 months they're going to be in a legal position to choose where they want to drink and socialize.

Fake passports are a big deal if someone is trying to get into a different country, but these people are just trying to go out in a pub, yes it's still illegal, so turn them down, but they don't deserve to be labelled as the type to steal passports or rob cars. They're just a year / few months shy of doing something completely legally.

Underage people on the premises or drinking alcohol on a licensed premises or people of age with no ID on the premises can lead to loss of licence on renewal which will result in job losses.

As for doormen, its a hard job taking **** from everyone from drunks, junkies and jumped up managers never mind the fact that they never know if they will make it to the end of a shift without an injury or loosing their life. If all doormen were nice idiots will take advantage..

frozenfrozen

I mean nice as in treating people nicely, not letting them in. Fair enough if someone is giving grief but I've seen it so many times where the bouncer takes it as a huge insult that someone is trying to get in and doesn't have id.

I'd like to say that again: I'm not saying they should let underage people in.

fasttalkerchat

2qk4u wrote: »

I was working last night and the doorman standing beside me was handed a driving licence by a lad that looked about 15, it was probably the most obviously tampered with ive every seen, anyway without warning the doorman ripped it up ant through it in this guys face, I thought I was seeing things...
A bit extreme I think and defiantly not my style.

Clearly just looking for a fight :eek:

MagicSean

frozenfrozen wrote: »

So tell them "I know what you're doing." instead of causing trouble.

If you want to get into that, they are giving the employees their job. One can't exist without the other, moot point.

I disagree. Under 18's don't provide massive business to places with doormen. And what do you mean "causing trouble"?

TheChizler

MagicSean wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

You'd want to be very confident it was fake. I had my (new at the time) Garda Age Card taken off me in Tesco by a security guard who'd gone mad on power. Wouldn't believe me that it was real. Got it back but if I'd followed if up with the Guards he could have got in serious trouble.

I doubt it. Theft requires an act of dishonesty.

I'm not talking about theft. The law clearly states that the only person who may seize an official age card is a member of an Garda Siochana. So you'd want to be certain that it's fake.

Edit: Can't find where that is officially stated right now on mobile but I'll get back once I do. I did find it when the situation occurred.