Complicated relationship with my father

LegacyUser

Hi I'm not really a regular poster on here anyway but I'm still going to go unregistered due the the personal nature of the post. It really is going to be quite long so I do apologies in advance. I'll try and keep it at a minimum while putting in all the relevant information.

I'll start at the end before explaining everything else.

Basically my Father lives with my elderly Grandmother (who is housebound apart from hospital appointments). I grew up in the house with them but I moved out a few years back to move in with my girlfriend. In all honesty I probably stayed 'too long' at home but it was mainly because I liked to look after my Nan who was very, very instrumental in my upbringing. That is mainly because for the last 20 years or so my Da has been a chronic alcoholic but more on that later.

Anyway the other day he told her he has stomach cancer. Out of the blue. She tried to talk to him about it but he wouldn't discuss it with her. He merely said he didn't want any treatment and he didn't want to talk about it. At first she didn't believe him but she phoned up my Auntie and she confirmed my Da had rang and told her the same. However my Auntie also said she didn't believe him.

Bascially I don't know if I can belive him or what to think. It might be true or it might not. It'll be very hard to ascertain. He's always been a very difficult man and our relationship has always been strained due to his drinking. He doesn't live well as he drinks, smokes and eats way too much and I've been resigned to the fac that one day his 5-6 times weekly trips to the pub, 40 a day smoking habit and horrendous fried food/takeaway diet will catch up with him.

This may sound incredibly selfish but I just feel like I want some feed back on how to not let our relationship, and whatever happens now and in the future should he actually be sick or not, completely f**k me up. I've seen how badly his relationship with his own father (my grandad) effected him and I really don't want to end up anything like my father.

So to get into the complicated bit now to try and provide some context for people

Basically my mother ran off on myself and my Da not long after I was born. That was the very start of the 80's when mothers were heavily favoured. She had no interest in me, though, and with the help of her family (she ran off with a drug dealer and became a junkie so they were happy to have me not with her) and my Grandparents on my Da's side he was allowed to have sole custody of me. This was thanks to the local priest (can you believe that sh*t mattered) vouching for my Nan being a good Catholic all these years and that she'd be involved in my upbringing so I had to live with my grandparents too.

At the time he was 25-26 when all this went on. He was a normal bloke who went through a stressful event getting custody of me but he had a good support group. His paernts, friends and 3 brothers. He was had working at the time and pulled a lot of overtime to make extra money as things were tight back then and our family especially were less than flush. However this hard work would ultimately contribute to his downfall.

He had an on the job accident and was unable to work for a few months. At the time he'd paid into an insurance policy at work that (and I'm not getting into the jigs and the reels) basically saw him get paid at whatever rate he'd been earning for the previous 6 months. With all the overtime he'd done that meant he was a very well paid man while laid up. Unfortunately this is where his life took a turn for the worse. He started to party it up on his time off after the initial pain of the accident passed and got used to living a well paid lifestyle without having to work for it.

He then found out that if he was certified as unable to work ever again he would continue to recieve these level of payments for the rest of his life. By bascially offering his doctor a pay off he got him to certify this (it was long and drawn out but that was the end product of what happened) and my father hasn't worked a day in his life since but has gotten paid more than 95% of people I know on a weekly basis.

He was a fit, healthy, friendly young man who had life in him and was vibrant. But over the years he declined. It didn't take long for the rot to set in. He'd be in the pub 3-4-5 nights a week. He'd take me out in the day to the park or whatever but he was always out the door in the evening to go to the pub. That was in the beginning. As I got a bit older (when clearer memories kick in) he started going to the pub earlier and earlier. We're at the stage now where he goes to the pub at 12-1-2pm for a 12 hour stint say 5 times a week.

When I got a little bigger he started to verbally abuse and bully me on a regular basis when he'd come in. At first my Nan, who is a strong woman, wasn't having any of it. But over time her health declined and she was more reliant on him and less able to admonish his behaviour or get through to him. His 3 brothers, who were all at least a decade older, died in the last 10-15 years due to various ailments. Now my Nan is scared to complain about him because she has no one else in the house to look after her.

As I got a bit bigger he'd throw me the odd beating. But the thing is I knew, because I grew up in a rough enough area with a realistic slant on the world, that he wasn't big or tough. So when I got big enough, about 15, and he came in pissed at 5pm looking for his tea before he went back to the pub and hit me a couple of digs. I basically got up and flattened him. I found that a very hard thing to get my head around at that age. I loved him then and I do love him now but I failed to cope with the fact I was fighting, now physically, with 1 of the only 2 relatives I was close to.

I understand the situation better now as my adult life has helped me process what he is and how he has behaved. I have also literally had to pick him up off the road and carry him home because he was too drunk to stand. I ran into him on the street in these states coming home from football, a friends, wherever. I've also had to literally pick him up from a pool of his own piss in our doorway and carry him to bed too. It was all very intese for a teenager (however I do believe it's made me a stronger person in the long run)

Moving into my post school years he'd frequently try and start fights with me. He'd take a lunge at me. I'd grab him and restrain him. Usually sit him on the floor, as it would be hard for him to get his drunken body off the floor, and go and sleep at my girlfriends/a friends whoever would have me and crash at there place for that night.

His relationship with his father had a big impact on him. His father was never around. It turned out my Grandad, who died not long after my Da packed in his job, was a bit of a ladies man. Upon his death it transpired he'd had a second family and (although it was sheltered from it at the time) it caused an unholy sh*tstorm in our small family. This is another stressful event in his life I know. But

He seems to use anything that has ever gone wrong in his life as an excuse to act like a prick. He's so angry all the time. Years and years back he'd be happy enough when sober and 'turn' when he was drunk. The that became neutral when sober and angry when pissed. After more time it became irritable when sober and angry when drunk. Now he's just angry at the world all the time.

He feels very sorry for himself for some reason. He's had many a tantrum or fit over the years. He's decried a lack of friends or prospects. I've had a few 1 to 1's with him. Only a few, though, as he usually flees from being told what the story is with him. I've told him on those occasions starting around the age of 39 (I would have been 17) as he was freaking out about 'being 40 next year' that he needed to sort out his drinking and he could do whatever he wanted with his life. That hanging out for 12 hours a day 5 days a week in the pub wasn't going to get him anywhere and if he wanted something else he needed to change. He had/has the money to do more than most. Of course he never paid a blind bit of notice for more than a week and he was back to the same old same old. He could have turned his life around at any stage if he'd put an effort in but he didn't.

Also in all of this he would never accept/will never accept that he is an alcoholic. In his own head he's just someone that goes to the pub and has a few too many sometimes. He's also a chronic liar with it. I could spend 100 pages listing all the stuff he's lied about from the very minor (lying about having gone shopping for Nan) to the bigger stuff (lying about getting arrested for Drunk and Disorderly and having my Nan up until 8am in the morning out of her mind worrying where he was). He never has any remorse when caught and in fact refuses to back down and uses it as an excuse to kick off

As things stand I only get home to visit my Nan once a week. I do shopping, cleaning, hoovering, whatever for her. I see my Da for about an hour (only if he's sober) a week. I wish that wasn't the way it is but it's the only type of relationship I can sustain with him. Over the years I've had to see less and less of him because if I spend any time with him he wants to a) start and argument or b) demand I go for a pint with him 'like a son should'

He's complained he's not part of my life a couple of times recently and I've very candidly told him he needs to sort himself out if he wants any part in it. He never does, though, but asks the same questions of me 2 months later. When he gives me the 'I'm your father, you're my son' spiel now I tell him flat out he has to choose between his alcohol fuelled lifestyle or having a relationship with his child. It does the trick of shutting him up temporarily at least.

He thinks he was a great father because he 'took me on' when my mother bolted. It was actually my Nan who did most of raising me. He thinks that going to the park for an hour, or throwing me a new Sega Megadrive game once in a while equals good parenting. Omitting the fact that after he did these things he'd disappear to the pub for 8-10-12 hours and come home drunk and abusive.

Now he's come out with his cancer business. It could be true or it could not. I tend to think it's not because, when he told my Nan and my Aunt about it, he said 'Even my own son doesn't believe I have cancer'. He's never mentioned anything of the kind to me. It's not exactly the type of conversation you forget. The thing is he's always had trouble of keeping track of the lies hes told. I'm wondering if his mind is getting a bit more warped with that kind of thing as he gets older (he's 54 now). I also doubt he has cancer because he makes a mountain out of a molehill at the best of times so I doubt he'd have been so 'meh' about it all.

Then again he might have cancer. I don't know. It's not something I'm willing to write off because it's not something that someone should ever say/claim unless it's true.

I won't see him to speak to him on this until Tuesday. He might just do the usual and get up, walk out and go to the pub if I ask him any hard questions so myself and my Nan will be no nearer to having out minds put to rest. Shes old and sick and doesn't need the stress.

I don't want to see my father sick or potenitally with a fatal disease but, and I don't want to sound like a cold bast*rd, over the years I've watched his excess and steeled myself for the fact that, one day, it won't end well. You don't live to 100 with his kind of lifestyle. In fact many might not have seen 50.

I do love, care and worry about him but he's been in my dreams quite a bit since I heard this 3 days ago. Understandable I guess but whatever goes down between now and whatever comes after I don't want to end up having my life f*cked up by my relationship with him the way he let his relationship with his father (and used it as an excuse) f*ck him up.

Any thoughts on how to deal with this would be most welcome.

Cheers

Lorna123

I wouldn't be able to give you advice on this as it is out of my league, but I have to say that on reading it you come across as being a very caring and nice person. You are so right in everything you say and so down to earth. I know what it is like to be involved with alcoholics to some extent having some experience of it. All I can say is that alcoholics have no conscience and that when they say something with the best of intentions they will change their minds as soon as they want the next drink. They put themselves first all the time. Of course it is a disease and very hard to deal with.

It would appear that with the lifestyle your father has lead, what with smoking 40 cigarettes a day and drinking so much that he probably has cancer. He may or may not have had this confirmed but could have symptoms that he knows are cancerous and is afraid to have it confirmed but is just now making sweeping statements because he is scared.

You have been a terrific son to him and there is no way that you can ever feel that you let him down. He must know this too. You have given him all the right advice over the years but because he is an alcoholic he won't take it. He needed professional help, you did all you could but if he wasn't willing to take the first step then you couldn't do any more. You were right to stand up to him when he threw you punches. He needed that.

This is a very sad story. All you can do is talk to your father when he is sober, ask him what he wants to do. He probably doesn't know what he wants to do but if he definitely has cancer getting treatment may not cure him. It will prolong his life maybe but what sort of a life does he want to prolong. It is his choice as to how he wants this to go.

If he does have cancer and you contact the hospice people they will help you and tell you how you should go about dealing with this disease.

My heart goes out to you, you are a wonderful wonderful person and I hope this all works out for you. I hope that someone here can help you.

thefeatheredcat

OP, for you I think the best thing for you to do for yourself is to psychologically and emotionally prepare yourself through reasoning for both scenarios i.e. to accept that what he is saying is true and be able to cope with that and how you feel about it and to also accept that he's telling lies and to cope with that and how you feel about that too.

There's no guarantee from your perspective which is the truth given that he has lied in the past; it could be something that he is worried about and projecting, a sign of asking for help by suddenly saying he has cancer to attract attention and sympathy especially if he has lost friends along the way and bring people closer to him if he feels more or less abandoned only to take out his anger on easy targets.

Edit: If he is lying it could be equally valid that perhaps he is looking for a reason to forge a new relationship between you all and this is the only way he knows how to perhaps out of fear for saying what he really feels

Even if it is true, he is continuing life as is and to be honest I think ringing up your Aunt, telling your Grandmother and telling you that he has cancer but is unwilling to discuss it has a sense of emotional blackmail about it; in that he has control in that he has you worried yet you are all helpless to do anything because he refuses to talk about it and is not taking action. In the case of it being true though, he could be in denial and just prepared to carry on as normal for what he regards as normal or has just accepted and decided there's really nothing to fight for because he doesn't really have a happy life or anything to really live for from his perspective.

I think protecting yourself from it being either way, even from the guilt of dismissing it as a lie only for it to be true is something you need to process on different levels.

In your post I get the impression you show your father a lot of understanding as to his situation and perhaps understanding is really all you can give here. In any event, true or untrue understanding and yet not judging him too harshly and maintaining the current level of interaction might be in your best interest, rather than for example, reacting emotionally in anger on a suspect lie that could cause you guilt or make you unhappy that pushes the wedge further between you to create a more volatile atmosphere/relationship between you and having to regret that at some point.

Piliger

OP - I am 50+ with a son of 20.

Our relationship with our fathers can be immensely complex. My father was an alcoholic though no one called it that back then. He screwed up his family and children.

The truth is that no matter how bad the things they did or how messed up in their heads they were and how mixed our feelings for them ... we still love them because they are OUR Dads and we can't escape these feelings even though often we wished we could. Also we learn as we grow older that life sucks in all kinds of ways and that they did their best, even if they screwed up.
That he will die one day, you have already said you have steeled yourself to that. This is the way life is. He has led a roller coaster of a life and has contributed to his own health issues. It's only a question of when.
So you need to do what the above commenters have said - start to get your head around the possibility that this may be much sooner rather than later.
On the issue of whether he is lying or not ... well that's a tough one for us to advise on. Despite the shock of it all you have to try to stay calm and wait for it to play out a bit before you allow yourself to absorb it. See if he sticks to the story ... see if he has any documents/reports from the medical people ... visits to the hospital ... scans etc.

As to your relationship. That is a really tough one.

If you really want to find a way to resolve those issues that you say screwed up his life and that you don't want to screw up yours ... there is only one route. That route leads to time talking with him when he is ready to talk. Time spent together, exposing your feelings of resentment and anger and disappointment. Time spent with him so he can say what he wants to say or is capable of saying. That time will more than likely come quite soon, if he is as sick as he claims. You will know when the time is right. It will come when he has grasped the reality of his predicament, when it has really hit home, and maybe when he is confined near the end. It won't require planning for what to say. It will just require the strength, when the times comes, to bare your soul to him, your inner most feelings.

It won't necessarily take a long time, but it may take a while for him to reach that point when he is ready. Only you will know and you may need to intercede so that he is still physically capable.

Be prepared. There are no guarantees. He may not have the emotional education or emotional intelligence to realise the meaning of his life's actions in the way you do. But sometimes a lack words can be overcome in an intimate time like this. So you may not get 100% resolution. But in my personal view this is the only way to achieve the best outcome possible.

Best of luck.

LegacyUser

Hi thanks for your feedback all of you. I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply. I'm still kicking it all around in my head as it's a pretty obviously complicated situation.

Just one quote I should clarify

---
Time spent together, exposing your feelings of resentment and anger and disappointment.
---

I really don't resent him and I'm not angry or disappointed at him. That is the truth. Over the years I've worked these things out in my head. If anything the way I was brought up/brought myself up turned me into quite a pragmatic person.

I don't resent him at all. I got over the idea that parents were infallible and all the things they needed to be to their children perhaps a lot earlier than most kids. He's just a man with all the possibilities for flaws that people have. Being a parent made him not less susceptible to the pitfalls of life.

I'm not resentful or angry because my life so far has led me to where I am. I do a job I love, I'm getting married to the woman I love soon, I own my home, I have good friends and I have sufficient scope to do the things I love doing in life. I wouldn't change any of my life as it is and what happened before is what led me here.

Disappointment is another thing. I guess I am sad and disappointed for him. No matter how self inflicted it is, when you love someone, it is next to impossible to not, at times at least, feel sorry for them. I just wanted more for him. I think we all want more for the people we love. I guess that generally it ends up being the parent wanting more for the child but it works both ways.

He's miserable all the time. He's at no stage a happy drunk now. He's the miserable old bastard over in the corner mumbling to himself and glaring at people. It's hard to see someone you love so thoroughly miserable. Now that said it's up to him to change and he hasn't done that no matter what support was offered. So that is the flip side of the coin. It was self inflicted. The reason his life turned out like this is because he made it that way.

While I appreciate the idea of some kind of sweeping statement of regret if and when he comes to terms with his own mortality I hope it doesn't come to that. Some Hallmark TV movie of the week soppy recantment of all he's said and done doesn't interest me. Whats done is done. I can live with that.

A last minute 'oh please for give me, I've seen the error of my ways' type deal is the kind of head f**k I'm trying to brace myself to deal with and ultimately not be affected by because, as I said, that kind of thing will do nothing for me. It might make him feel better though. And that's a headspace I want to be able to deal with.

Thanks again everyone.

Lorna123

123charlie123 wrote: »

Hi thanks for your feedback all of you. I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply. I'm still kicking it all around in my head as it's a pretty obviously complicated situation.

Just one quote I should clarify

---
Time spent together, exposing your feelings of resentment and anger and disappointment.
---

I really don't resent him and I'm not angry or disappointed at him. That is the truth. Over the years I've worked these things out in my head. If anything the way I was brought up/brought myself up turned me into quite a pragmatic person.

I don't resent him at all. I got over the idea that parents were infallible and all the things they needed to be to their children perhaps a lot earlier than most kids. He's just a man with all the possibilities for flaws that people have. Being a parent made him not less susceptible to the pitfalls of life.

I'm not resentful or angry because my life so far has led me to where I am. I do a job I love, I'm getting married to the woman I love soon, I own my home, I have good friends and I have sufficient scope to do the things I love doing in life. I wouldn't change any of my life as it is and what happened before is what led me here.

Disappointment is another thing. I guess I am sad and disappointed for him. No matter how self inflicted it is, when you love someone, it is next to impossible to not, at times at least, feel sorry for them. I just wanted more for him. I think we all want more for the people we love. I guess that generally it ends up being the parent wanting more for the child but it works both ways.

He's miserable all the time. He's at no stage a happy drunk now. He's the miserable old bastard over in the corner mumbling to himself and glaring at people. It's hard to see someone you love so thoroughly miserable. Now that said it's up to him to change and he hasn't done that no matter what support was offered. So that is the flip side of the coin. It was self inflicted. The reason his life turned out like this is because he made it that way.

While I appreciate the idea of some kind of sweeping statement of regret if and when he comes to terms with his own mortality I hope it doesn't come to that. Some Hallmark TV movie of the week soppy recantment of all he's said and done doesn't interest me. Whats done is done. I can live with that.

A last minute 'oh please for give me, I've seen the error of my ways' type deal is the kind of head f**k I'm trying to brace myself to deal with and ultimately not be affected by because, as I said, that kind of thing will do nothing for me. It might make him feel better though. And that's a headspace I want to be able to deal with.

Thanks again everyone.

You know something OP you have helped yourself the most here by spelling it all out, writing it all down and getting it off your chest. You have it down to a "T". Thank God you are so strong and so together about all of this. I don't think any of us have helped you here more than you have helped yourself. Well done.

LegacyUser

Well I went to visit today. As I expected he was lying. It took about 5 seconds to find that out.

I sat down and calmly asked him what was going on and could we talk about it. He immediately exploded into a fit shouting and waving his hands around saying that he was sick and that was the end of it. There was to be no more discussion on the matter.

I asked him what the doctors had told him. He continued shouting and bawling that he was sick. I then pointed out that he'd told my Nan (his mother) and my Aunt that he had cancer. I asked him had the doctors told him that he had cancer. He said no, but they had said if he continued living the stressful lifestyle 'looking after' my nan that they told him he'd get cancer within 2 years.

I held my tongue on quite a few things as it would only cause him to go into a bigger fit and ultimately it's my Nan who has to live with him. I just told him that lying to people about having cancer was a disgraceful thing to do and left the room.

I went downstairs to tell my Nan that it had in fact been a lie. At which she broke down in tears and was incredibly upset and relieved and whatever else! After a few moments with her I told her I was going to leave and I'd be back to see her when he wasn't there.

I'm more steeled for, and pragmatic about, the kind of man he is. However my Nan is a frail old woman who has seen in turn her sisters, brothers, mother, father, husband and sons all buried. The last thing she needs is this disgraceful behaviour from him heaping more stress and grief on her.

I left because I didn't want to end up in the inevitable fight with him. Suffice to say the 'stressful lifestyle' he has with my Nan involves making her dinner then going to the pub in the afternoon and coming home after shes gone to bed. Stressful indeed. It's a case of him feeling sorry for himself. I know by him that the alleged conversation with the doctor is fictitious.

I need a break away from him completely now to be honest. He is more and more posionous to be around with each passing day it seems. Thanks everyone for their input. I just thought I'd post this as a bit of an ending to what went on in case it helps anyone out on here in future

LegacyUser

An unexpected twist (for me at least) just now. It turns out he won't speak to my Nan since. locked himself in his bedroom for a day and a half before going out tonight and is now talking about committing suicide.

I'm worn out. I know the pragmatic thing is to realise that I can't help anyone who doesn't want to be helped. I know he's being unreasonable, I know he's just acting as he always has done and putting himself ahead of everyone else. But f**k me I never thought he'd be talking this kind of thing.

I was used to his lies and spoofs. His drunken disgusting behaviour and his aggression. I guess this has taken me out of a comfort zone that I had established without realising. I'd readied myself for a lot of stuff as I have already stated but not this I guess.

Lying about having cancer to our family and then threatening suicide within 2 days. WTF should I do about this. Needless to say my Nan, who is sick enough already, is afraid of what he might do and wants me there for comfort but, on the flip side, doesn't want me to 'set him off' anymore than he already is.

There probably are no answers to be had. I guess, like previous posters are said, it might just be good to get it all out there.

Sorry I thought this thread was done but it wasn't

Lorna123

I don't think that your dad has any intention of committing suicide. He was getting attention while he was saying he had cancer. Now that it has been proved that he hasn't he feels like a fool and wants to create another drama so he says he will commit suicide. He is obviously a troubled man, but he has brought all this on himself. It is so sad that you Nan has to endure all of this at her age.

You canot control what he is going to do next. You have done your best all of your life in this situation and that is all you can do. I wouldn't know how to advise you on what to do next bar suggesting that he goes to AA, but I am sure that you have tried all of this in the past and it didn't work for him. Smoking and drinking to excess will lead to either cancer or a heart attack at his age, so he is digging his own grave, a suicide of sorts. It must be a terrible for you and your Nan, you have to watch him from day to day and wonder what he is doing. I have seen all of this in the past in experiences I have had with this disease. In the end the person I knew died of cancer, but he lived to 81. I wish you the best with this OP, you come across to me like someone who has their head screwed on and knows how to manage this man better than anyone here can advise you, but talk about it as much as you like if it helps.

Piliger

Hi OP. This is a ghastly situation. I completely understand.

It is way too complex to offer specific advice to help you however - and I am sure you know that too. I believe, as Lorna123 correctly says above, that venting and writing down your thoughts is actually the biggest help you are doing yourself.

Broadly speaking this is what I feel. I feel that you have to stop getting sucked into the details, the specifics of this man's world. Your father's world. This is an ill man. An unwell man. Mentally and behaviourally. The specifics of what he says this week or next week or does this week or next week are not really important in and of themselves any more.

You need, imho, to look on him as a mentally and behaviourally ill man and take a major step back from that. Don't allow yourself to get upset or involved or caught up in his periodic misbehaving and instead respond only broadly. Does that make sense ? I know it's hard. Really really hard. But he is, in my humble opinion, no longer 'responsible' for what he is doing anymore and no amount of reason and logic and argument and discussion can fix him.

Best wishes to you.

thefeatheredcat

OP definitely I think it is incredibly healthy for you to get it out of you here.

I myself would be personally hesitant in showing scepticism about the possibility of him committing suicide; it could be a ruse for attention after being caught in a lie on the other hand you don't know what's really going on in his head or what is going on with him generally that has caused the lie about cancer and his sudden change. He could be ranting, he could be looking for attention, he could be looking in a round about way through negative attention looking for help or looking to mend things and just has no idea about how to go about it.

I think you being responsible for him is wrong, even you feeling that you should do something. At the end of the day he is an adult. Yourself, your grandmother and your aunt might be wise to sit down and talk about it to eachother. Maybe collectively approaching a GP on seeking further advice on what to do might be the only way here? I don't think either one of you managing and dealing with him alone is in your best interests so I do think that seeking out advice or even talking to a GP to voice concerns (even if what your father says has no real intention behind it) might be the best way to manage it.

The only thing you can do is be of support to your grandmother as I think she particularly will need it.