Gardaí drinking seized alcohol 'common practice'

jonsnow

Interesting article in yesterdays times.What do people think of this story from a garda perspective.Is he a walter mitty character or does this sort of stuff really go on?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0707/1224319600461.html

A FORMER garda at Bray station has claimed it is common practice for members of the force to consume alcoholic drink seized by the Garda. The claim was made by James Murphy in statements prepared for Det Insp Frank Keeneghan, who was appointed to carry out an investigation into allegations against the former garda.

Mr Murphy, of Duncormack, New Ross, is before Wicklow Circuit Court sitting in Bray accused of dishonestly appropriating for himself two slabs of Bulmers cider which had been stolen by two youths from a Centra shop in Dargle Road, Bray, in June 2009. He has pleaded not guilty to the charge.

In his statements, Mr Murphy said no official complaint about the stolen cider had been made within six months and taking a case had become statute barred. He had attempted several times to contact Tania Williams from the Centra shop but she had never got back to him.

Mr Murphy’s statements said the cider was taken to a house party and consumed. It was destroyed in that manner. That was a common practice. He did not consume any of it himself.

Det Insp Keeneghan said a case of theft never became statute barred, even if a complaint was not made within six months. The theft from Centra never became statute barred. He got Ms Williams’s phone number from Mr Murphy’s locker and had no problem in contacting her.

Det Insp Keeneghan said the claim in Mr Murphy’s statement that it was common practice that drink was consumed was untrue. It never happened. The Garda code of conduct never made any mention of that. Mr Murphy was simply incorrect in what he said.

Insp Michael Walsh said he met Mr Murphy on February 8th, 2010. Mr Murphy told him he had seized the drink. Asked if it was in the property store, he said it was not. Asked where it was, he replied: “It is gone.”

Asked in cross-examination if he had told Mr Murphy to bury the file and never bring it up again, Insp Walsh said that conversation never took place.

Insp Walsh, who was asked to prepare a report for the Garda Commissioner, agreed there was a certain amount of difficulty in relation to Mr Murphy – a probation garda at the time – his suitability for the Garda and whether he would be appointed. He said Mr Murphy had received a citation for jumping into a river in Cork.

Garda Philip Sheridan was asked by defence counsel if he had made a suggestion in Bray Garda station about having a “little competition to see who would seize the most beer for a barbecue being held in the station”.

“Certainly not, absolutely not,” Garda Sheridan replied.

The trial continues.

Rabies

ya wha now?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056695100

jonsnow

Rabies wrote: »

ya wha now?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056695100

garda perspective

Eru

I personally have no desire to touch my lips to a dirty can of cheap crap that has been sitting in a ditch or laneway with some dirty sods hands or mouth touching it before me then spending 8 hours rolling around a filty back seat of a patrol car or boot which has had literally **** covered arses and clothing also inside.

Just me though. As for the original article, ex-Garda being investigated is hardly a great source.

If it was nicked it would be returned or kept as evidence. can hand on heart say I have never seen a single stolen items being kept for personal gain

cocoshovel

As long as they're not drinking it on duty then I dont overly mind :pac:

charlemont

Big hullabaloo over nothing.. If he wasn't a ex Guard then it wouldn't even had made the paper.

Victor

Rearding seizures (as opposed to loss of evidence), some of the younger posters on boards.ie have reported similar actions, where if a 19 year old had alcohol in a public place*, but couldn't prove they were over 18, it would be confiscated and when they went with ID and sought it's return, there was no record of the seizure.

Similarly, small seizure of cannabis not being prosecuted.


* Closed container

Eru

Victor wrote: »

Rearding seizures (as opposed to loss of evidence), some of the younger posters on boards.ie have reported similar actions, where if a 19 year old had alcohol in a public place*, but couldn't prove they were over 18, it would be confiscated and when they went with ID and sought it's return, there was no record of the seizure.

Similarly, small seizure of cannabis not being prosecuted.


* Closed container

The fact that its closed doesn't preclude Gardai from seizing it from a fully grown adult.

But seeing as were using hearsay, I have heard it said that solicitors will know their clients are guilty and want to plead but will look for remand dates purely to make more money from the case.

Victor

Eru wrote: »

But seeing as were using hearsay, I have heard it said that solicitors will know their clients are guilty and want to plead but will look for remand dates purely to make more money from the case.

Why are you changing the topic instead of addressing the matter?

I'm not even a lawyer.

Yeah, I drink Dutch Gold all the time and that lovely Druids Cider!

I've never recorded the destruction of seized alcohol.

Terrontress

It's a pity that a good career is being destroyed over 48 tin of cider.

Zambia

Someone must be taking the piss

Mister Jingles

What does happen to unopened drink that's confiscated ?

Be honest now lads :pac:

Victor

Zambia wrote: »

Someone must be taking the piss

I think that is where the whole problem started. :pac:

FISMA

jonsnow wrote: »

Interesting article in yesterdays times.What do people think of this story from a garda perspective.Is he a walter mitty character or does this sort of stuff really go on?

I don't mind at all, if they drank the evidence, then they could hardly have prosecuted the offender. ie, they let them off with a warning and claimed the spoils!

Sounds like a fair deal to me.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

Rearding seizures (as opposed to loss of evidence), some of the younger posters on boards.ie have reported similar actions, where if a 19 year old had alcohol in a public place*, but couldn't prove they were over 18, it would be confiscated and when they went with ID and sought it's return, there was no record of the seizure.

Similarly, small seizure of cannabis not being prosecuted.


* Closed container

In most cases the booze is just thrown in the skip. If there is a chance that the fella was truthful they can generally get it back by coming down with ID. If there is no record it generally means it wasn't a local Garda but more likely a traffic cop or one from another district passing through. It's just not worth the chance of sanction for a few tins of dutch gold. There probably are fellas who seize booze from under 18's a bring it home instead of bin it. I see no problem with that. It's basically trash after all.

And just for some clarity, being underage is not the only reason booze can be seized. Section 4 of the POA gives a power to seize alcohol in antisocial situations and this won't be returned no matter what age the owner was.

Terrontress

Terrontress wrote: »

It's a pity that a good career is being destroyed over 48 tin of cider.

i dont think it is to be honest!! he was clearly not suited to the job, the inspector said as much in the court.

Eru

Victor wrote: »

Why are you changing the topic instead of addressing the matter?

I'm not even a lawyer.

I was merely pointing out that hearsay has no place in a discussion about legal procedures. I am well aware you are not a solicitor or a Garda (no such thing in Ireland as a lawyer, that's the US)

I addressed the topic already, you made a hearsay comment and made a point about seizing alcohol that was wrong. I addressed both.

flazio

But, if they knew where the alcohol was stolen from, why wasn't it returned to the Centra?

MagicSean

flazio wrote: »

But, if they knew where the alcohol was stolen from, why wasn't it returned to the Centra?

That's why he is being prosecuted.

Iwannahurl

MagicSean wrote: »

In most cases the booze is just thrown in the skip.

Most, but not all? What are the other possible outcomes, and what are the criteria for deciding what will be done?

What is the procedure for accounting for seized alcohol, and its ultimate fate?

Is the procedure the same for illicit drugs?

Eru

You know whats really shocking? Sometimes the people in Burgerking, McDonalds and other fast food / takeaways get to take home food at the end of the night.

Just because you work for an airline you get cheaper flights and bank staff benefit from cheaper interest rates.

In newsagents and book shops they can return only the front cover and then staff get to keep the old newspaper or magazine.

The corruption in the private sector is just shocking and I say down with this sort of thing:eek:

source

Given that this is an ongoing case I won't say much, but I know a member in Bray and he's filled me in on the background of this case, from what I hear he may have a defence, due to another members actions.

also the member in question was reverted into my phase, he is well known for writing absolutely everything down on paper.

Squaredude

Myself and a few friends saw a garda confiscating a nagan of vodka from a young fella,my friend went up the street with the garda and asked her if he could have the nagan and she gave it to him.

Iwannahurl

Eru wrote: »

You know whats really shocking? Sometimes the people in Burgerking, McDonalds and other fast food / takeaways get to take home food at the end of the night.

Just because you work for an airline you get cheaper flights and bank staff benefit from cheaper interest rates.

In newsagents and book shops they can return only the front cover and then staff get to keep the old newspaper or magazine.

The corruption in the private sector is just shocking and I say down with this sort of thing:eek:

You're a member of AGS, right?

Are you making some sort of comparison between Garda officers and employees of fast food outlets and newsagents etc?

Is there a connection of some sort, in the present context?



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Iwannahurl

MagicSean wrote: »

In most cases the booze is just thrown in the skip.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Most, but not all? What are the other possible outcomes, and what are the criteria for deciding what will be done?

What is the procedure for accounting for seized alcohol, and its ultimate fate?

Is the procedure the same for illicit drugs?

Still waiting for an answer re Standard Operating Procedures, if they exist.

No takers?



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Pappa Charlie

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Still waiting for an answer re Standard Operating Procedures, if they exist.

No takers?



.

I once served with a senior member long since retired who used to drop up the few cans he confiscated at the weekend to the local nursing home for the staff to give to anyone they felt able and grateful to have a social drink. I guess he'll burn in hell for that one!

Eru

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You're a member of AGS, right?

Are you making some sort of comparison between Garda officers and employees of fast food outlets and newsagents etc?

Is there a connection of some sort, in the present context?



.

Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks. I don't bitch about it because if I wanted cheap flights I could have become a trolley dolly with Aer Lingus or for the mortgage I could have applied to be a penny polisher but I didn't and I have learnt to live with it by taking it one day at a time. Its hard knowing those perks are out there but god willing, I will get over it.

But seriously, put on a coat and go meet real people who may at some point in life become what we call friends, then do that thing called getting a life and try living it because life is too short to be getting wound up over a few cans of cheap booze.

Iwannahurl

Eru wrote: »

Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.

Is there a connection between some jobs having perks and the seizure of alcohol by Garda officers?

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I once served with a senior member long since retired who used to drop up the few cans he confiscated at the weekend to the local nursing home for the staff to give to anyone they felt able and grateful to have a social drink. I guess he'll burn in hell for that one!

Still waiting for info regarding Standard Operating Procedures and the seizure of alcohol (and illicit drugs) by AGS.

Vikings

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Still waiting for info regarding Standard Operating Procedures

Not being funny but it depends on the situation.

For example section 4 of the public order act says "the member concerned may seize, obtain or remove, without warrant, any bottle or container..." but does not mention what is to be done with said bottle or container.

Whereas in the intoxicating liquor act you have it more definite "(7) Where the member or another member of the Garda Síochána has been given, or has seized, detained and removed, a bottle or container pursuant to this section, the member shall—

(a) dispose of the bottle or container in such manner as he or she considers appropriate, and

(b) make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."

So there you have it in black and white... or grey. Lots of shades of grey.

Iwannahurl

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

I can't see how there is any shade of grey here: "make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."





EDIT: Or do we infer that if the alcohol is seized under one Act a written record must be kept, but not if it's seized under a different Act? That might make a shade of grey alright.




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goldie fish

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

I can't see how there is any shade of grey here: "make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."





EDIT: Or do we infer that if the alcohol is seized under one Act a written record must be kept, but not if it's seized under a different Act? That might make a shade of grey alright.




.

There is no inference in this law. Thats exactly what is being said.

Victor

Eru wrote: »

Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.

Theft is a perk?

Eru wrote: »

You know whats really shocking? Sometimes the people in Burgerking, McDonalds and other fast food / takeaways get to take home food at the end of the night.

Never. Management know if that was the case, then extra food would be prepared, so staff would have more to take home. So as to cut down on losses, such practices are prohibited.

Of course, given that it could be 1-2 hours between the last food being cooked and people going home, who would want to eat a 2 hour old burger and fries?

When I worked in McDonalds, the only food staff were allowed have at the end of the day were doughnuts, simply because they were something made off site and just had to be defrosted and had a short shelf life and wouldn't stay fresh to the next day. This meant that the people who took them from the freezer wouldn't be the people eating them. Consumption of small amounts (specially designed cups provided) of soft drinks were allowed, at manager's discretion.

Food consumed on breaks is covered by the relevant local employment agreement. Typically the allowance can never be used in it's entirety.

Just because you work for an airline you get cheaper flights and

Only on flights that would have empty seats anyway and there is effectively no cost to the employer. As they are travelling on a stand-by basis, they may be paying for a near full price flight on the return leg. It may suit air lines to have off-duty staff on-board.

bank staff benefit from cheaper interest rates.

And pay BIK on them. Assuming they can get a loan in the current environment.

In newsagents and book shops they can return only the front cover and then staff get to keep the old newspaper or magazine.

No. The full copy is returned these days and that has been the case for several years.

In all of the above cases, the benefits are typically defined in the person's contract and are taxed accordingly.

The corruption in the private sector is just shocking and I say down with this sort of thing:eek:

You seem to not understand the difference between a perk* and corruption. And that may be the problem.


* I, as complainant, once gave a Garda box of chocolates for dealing with a matter. I only thought of giving it after the matter was dealt with and the Garda had no way of expecting it. That is a reward, not greasing a palm.

When I worked in McDonalds, one branch's policy was that all gardaí in uniform were given free food - I imagine the rules on that have changed both from a Garda and a McDonald's perspective. The only other group that benefited from such a 'perk' were coach drivers who brought a large group.

Iwannahurl

goldie fish wrote: »

There is no inference in this law. Thats exactly what is being said.

So one Act is a law and the other is a "perk"?

goldie fish

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So one Act is a law and the other is a "perk"?

Don't twist words.

Iwannahurl

goldie fish wrote: »

Don't twist words.

Twas but a mild jest.

The word "perk" came from your fellow Boardsie (and colleague?):

Eru wrote: »

Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.

goldie fish

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Twas but a mild jest.

The word "perk" came from your fellow Boardsie (and colleague?):

I sincerely doubt anyone on this site is a colleague of mine. If you want to jest take it to the jesters forum.

Iwannahurl

goldie fish wrote: »

I sincerely doubt anyone on this site is a colleague of mine. If you want to jest take it to the jesters forum.

If you and Eru are members of AGS then you are colleagues.

I'll use the word "perk" in all seriousness from now on, as I'm sure Eru meant it.

Victor

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If you and Eru are members of AGS then you are colleagues.

I am reasonably certain that goldie fish is not an member of AGS.

Iwannahurl

Hence my question mark in post #36.

Victor

“Not guilty” http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0712/1224319860909.html

Iwannahurl

"Mr Murphy said he had the cider in his locker for eight months before disposing of it. The cider was taken to a house party and consumed. That was a common practice."

Accepted as fact in a court of law, therefore?

Eru

Victor wrote: »

Theft is a perk?
Never. Management know if that was the case, then extra food would be prepared, so staff would have more to take home. So as to cut down on losses, such practices are prohibited.

Of course, given that it could be 1-2 hours between the last food being cooked and people going home, who would want to eat a 2 hour old burger and fries?

When I worked in McDonalds, the only food staff were allowed have at the end of the day were doughnuts, simply because they were something made off site and just had to be defrosted and had a short shelf life and wouldn't stay fresh to the next day. This meant that the people who took them from the freezer wouldn't be the people eating them. Consumption of small amounts (specially designed cups provided) of soft drinks were allowed, at manager's discretion.

Food consumed on breaks is covered by the relevant local employment agreement. Typically the allowance can never be used in it's entirety.

Only on flights that would have empty seats anyway and there is effectively no cost to the employer. As they are travelling on a stand-by basis, they may be paying for a near full price flight on the return leg. It may suit air lines to have off-duty staff on-board.

And pay BIK on them. Assuming they can get a loan in the current environment.

No. The full copy is returned these days and that has been the case for several years.

In all of the above cases, the benefits are typically defined in the person's contract and are taxed accordingly.

You seem to not understand the difference between a perk* and corruption. And that may be the problem.


* I, as complainant, once gave a Garda box of chocolates for dealing with a matter. I only thought of giving it after the matter was dealt with and the Garda had no way of expecting it. That is a reward, not greasing a palm.

When I worked in McDonalds, one branch's policy was that all gardaí in uniform were given free food - I imagine the rules on that have changed both from a Garda and a McDonald's perspective. The only other group that benefited from such a 'perk' were coach drivers who brought a large group.

Your wrong on all counts I am afraid, Ryanair have a standard fare for staff regardless of circumstances. True sometimes its cheaper for them to book online like us, but there is still a staff rate. Aer Lingus operate the stand by system.

BurgerKing and your local Pizza etc always have and always will allow staff to take whatever is left. Worked in Burgerking, McDonalds and Bewleys during college and any opened or booked food that could not for obvious reasons by reused the next day was free to staff. Brother is as we speak an employee of Apache pizza but their boss has limited them to 9" or less now. Local chipper has no qualms about the staff eating whatevers cooked and unused at closing and last time I checked, food in McDonalds and Burgerking has a shelf life of ten minutes under the fifo system so dunno where your getting your 2 hours from. If that was the shelf life in your place I hope I never ate there.

BIK on reduced interest rates is still reduced interest rates or are you suggesting they pay MORE as a result of getting staff rates? I dont believe thats true though as BIK generaly only applies to free benefits, not ones you pay for.

Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.

Vikings

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Thanks for that. Much appreciated.

I can't see how there is any shade of grey here: "make and retain, or cause to be made and retained, a record in writing of the manner, date and place of such disposal."

The grey area is that disposal is not defined in the act.

Iwannahurl

Eru wrote: »

Your wrong on all counts I am afraid, Ryanair have a standard fare for staff regardless of circumstances. True sometimes its cheaper for them to book online like us, but there is still a staff rate. Aer Lingus operate the stand by system.

BurgerKing and your local Pizza etc always have and always will allow staff to take whatever is left. Worked in Burgerking, McDonalds and Bewleys during college and any opened or booked food that could not for obvious reasons by reused the next day was free to staff. Brother is as we speak an employee of Apache pizza but their boss has limited them to 9" or less now. Local chipper has no qualms about the staff eating whatevers cooked and unused at closing and last time I checked, food in McDonalds and Burgerking has a shelf life of ten minutes under the fifo system so dunno where your getting your 2 hours from. If that was the shelf life in your place I hope I never ate there.

BIK on reduced interest rates is still reduced interest rates or are you suggesting they pay MORE as a result of getting staff rates? I dont believe thats true though as BIK generaly only applies to free benefits, not ones you pay for.

Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.

The McGarda Evasive Response Unit is working overtime, I see.

look, realistically if a guard takes a can/opened container of drink off anybody under any act, it is thrown down the drain. probably in front of the person it was seized from.

other drink is brought back to the station. if someone has ID all they have to do is go down to station with ID and claim it back.

in a concert/match situation the majority of the alcohol seized is at security on the way in.

can we start a thread about security companies drinking alcohol seized at these gigs???

or is it just gardai that we dont want drinking seized alcohol???

Iwannahurl

bubblypop wrote: »

look, realistically if a guard takes a can/opened container of drink off anybody under any act, it is thrown down the drain. probably in front of the person it was seized from.

other drink is brought back to the station. if someone has ID all they have to do is go down to station with ID and claim it back.

in a concert/match situation the majority of the alcohol seized is at security on the way in.

can we start a thread about security companies drinking alcohol seized at these gigs???

or is it just gardai that we dont want drinking seized alcohol???

I'm sure you can start a thread about private security companies seizing alcohol/illicit drugs and then consuming it themselves.

This thread is about the statutory body empowered by the State to uphold and enforce the law.

I'm still interested to know whether AGS has a Standard Operating Procedure for dealing with such seizures, and if so what is that procedure.

Terrontress

Eru wrote: »

Either way, the jury didn't agree with yourself and iwannamoan that it was theft.

It's not that simple ERU. I'd say the verdict is more that an individual cannot be held responsible for the widespread culture of misappropriating items which have been stolen and recovered by AGS.

If exactly the same circumstances were to occur again I'd imagine that the verdict would be different as this case, and the publicity it has generated, has publicly announced the standards which the AGS hierarchy expect.

ERU, can I ask a simple question which requires only a yes/no answer?

Are you a serving Garda?

Obviously you are entitled not to answer or tell me to clear off but I never can quite tell from your answers.

Iwannahurl

If Eru's posts are anything to go by, then this Boards member is also a member of AGS.

See Eru's use of the First Person Plural in these two posts, by way of example:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51810636&postcount=25

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51829303&postcount=30

However, I can understand why you can "never quite tell" such things in this forum.

Eru wrote: »

Its pretty straightforward, jobs carry perks.

In my opinion, alcohol cannot be compared to burgers, and policing is not just another McJob. On the matter of this country's alcohol culture, and how that might be reflected in the attitudes and behaviour of our police officers in relation to alcohol controls, here are two recent pieces in the Irish Times. The first is a letter that was published on Friday July 13th, and the second is a link to a report in today's paper.

Trouble in the Park

Sir, – When I took the 7.15am train from Westport on the morning of the concert, I expected to sleep. But by the time I arrived at the station, the train was fast filling with rowdy concert goers, settling in for the journey with shoulders of vodka and rum and slabs of beer. I overheard an anxious ticket collector calling the controller and requesting a garda to “walk through the train”, concerned as he was about the drink that was being brought on-board. I sat in the first-class carriage in a bid to avoid the chaos, but by the time we reached Manulla Junction the entire train had been besieged by youngsters, bound for the Phoenix Park.

A group of 22-year-old men surrounded me and worked their way through their stash of booze, alighting the train at each stop to smoke. At one point, the passenger next to me began to crumble cannabis resin into his joint of tobacco. When the train bar ran out of beer they mixed wine with their vodka and continued drinking, growing ever more out of control, heckling anyone who walked through the train.

By the time we reached Portarlington I had acclimatised to the disorder, but a couple of mild-mannered British tourists, who boarded the train, rendered the drunken scene in a savage new light. What must they have thought I wondered as they gingerly side-stepped a passenger who was flailed out between carriages? Surely it couldn’t have been too far removed from their ancestral accounts of the Irish as a lower evolutionary form? I wondered if the scene evoked for them, as it did for me, the racist rhetoric of the Victorian scientist Charles Kingsley who was haunted by “the white chimpanzees” on his trip to Ireland. – Yours, etc,

Anatomy of a debacle.




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Pappa Charlie

Maybe all seized alcohol should be forwarded to the Forensic science lab in the park for analysis so that Iwannamoan can rest at ease, sure they arent that busy are they? and if we are going to document every individual can of dutch gold as "Iwannamoan" wants then we may as well go the full hog. We all know that storage is never an issue in garda stations and Sergeants love to see gardai arriving with cans or bottles for storage. I think there are bigger issues out there that Iwannamoan could grasp onto. God love us it takes all kinds to make up the world!

Iwannahurl

Well Proper Charlie, seeing as how you also seem to be a member of the McGarda, perhaps you could answer the as yet unanswered question: is there a Standard Operating Procedure (or something along those lines) detailing what has to be done with seized alcohol/illicit drugs?