Chinese government ignores Vatican warning on bishop ordination

Onesimus

Vatican City, Jul 6, 2012 / 03:30 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- The Vatican is considering its response following the illicit ordination of another bishop without Pope Benedict’s approval.
Father Joseph Yue Fusheng, 48, was ordained as bishop of Harbin city on July 6, despite warnings from Rome that he faced automatic excommunication for doing so.
“This episcopal ordination of Harbin will create confusion and divisions among the Catholic community in China,” the Vatican’s Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples said in a July 3 note issued ahead of the ordination.
“If one wants the Church in China to be Catholic, one must not proceed with episcopal ordinations that do not have the prior approval of the Holy Father,” the congregation said.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/chinese-government-ignores-vatican-warning-on-bishop-ordination/

Is there nothing that can be done about these terrible acts?

How are other Christians not of the Catholic faith coping in China?

jhegarty

Sounds like what China did in appointing their own Panchen Lama.

AtomicHorror

EWTN News wrote:

...illicit ordination of another bishop without Pope Benedict’s approval.

Onesimus wrote: »

Is there nothing that can be done about these terrible acts?

I've heard a great many things described as "terrible", but never anything quite so benign as this. With some genuinely terrible things happening in world events, would you actually lose sleep over this?

qrrgprgua

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I've heard a great many things described as "terrible", but never anything quite so benign as this. With some genuinely terrible things happening in world events, would you actually lose sleep over this?

Because its another show of their disregard for human rights.

newmug

For anyone following the messages from Maria Devine Mercy, this looks exactly like one of the predictions rolled out there a few weeks ago! The Catholic Church will split, with the original one falling off almost into obscurity, while a parallel, but evil, church will rise in power conning millions of people to follow IT instead of the real one. Scary.

Onesimus

newmug wrote: »

For anyone following the messages from Maria Devine Mercy, this looks exactly like one of the predictions rolled out there a few weeks ago! The Catholic Church will split, with the original one falling off almost into obscurity, while a parallel, but evil, church will rise in power conning millions of people to follow IT instead of the real one. Scary.

I have never heard of Maria. Who is she?

wexie

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Because its another show of their disregard for human rights.

What human rights would that be? The right to have been approved by the pope if you're going to be appointed a bishop?

I'll quite happily agree with you that China don't have the best record on human rights but if you genuinely think that this drivel has anything to do with it I'm afraid......actually...you know what? There's no point arguing with people like you.

Carry on

newmug

Onesimus wrote: »

I have never heard of Maria. Who is she?

Apparently she's some woman from Dublin who claims Jesus and Mary are appearing to her, giving her messages. There was a thread about her on here a while ago. There's even a website. Some seriously spooky stuff on there, for example one message was about keeping abortion out of Ireland. I thought "sure abortion is already illegal in Ireland, I call shenanigans". 3 weeks later, Claire Daly brought a bill into the dail trying to legalise it! The latest message is about the weather, saying its only going to get worse, and that this is all part of thesecond coming of Jesus.


http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/

totus tuus

Onesimus wrote: »

I have never heard of Maria. Who is she?

There are doctrinal errors in some of her messages, and she should be given a wide berth. Sadly, she has many followers.

The Warning Second Coming


Many faithful Christians at present believe that the world has gotten so bad that God will intervene directly in human affairs to bring us to our senses. Something big will happen, they say, and soon!

This view is central to a website, ‘the warning second coming’, that is popular with some Catholics. It is associated with an anonymous ‘European seer’ who goes by the name, ‘Maria Divine Mercy’.

The website claims that since November 2010, ‘Maria’ has been receiving messages from God the Father, Jesus and Our Lady. They speak of a worldwide warning from God, the need for conversion and the Second Coming of Christ.

In judging private revelations, the Church rightly proceeds with great caution. If any “revelation” contains a substantive doctrinal or moral error it can be dismissed as being ‘not of supernatural origin’.

Applying this standard to ‘Maria Divine Mercy’, we find a number of doctrinal errors in her writings. Here are sample messages followed by responses based on Church teaching:

(1) Message (20 May 2011): Many people believe that My Second Coming indicates that the end of the world has come. This is not the case, for instead, it will mean the End Times when Satan and his followers will be banished from earth for 1000 years.

Response: This “message” contradicts Church teaching, where the Second Coming will indeed mean that the end of the world has come. Our Lord’s Second Coming will signal that the history of the world has run its course.

The earth and the cosmos will be renewed and evil will no longer tarnish God’s creation. The ‘new heavens and the new earth’ and the renewed creation will be free from Satan’s power not for 1000 years, but forever.

(2) Message (7May 2011): My Passion the Cross and the atrocities committed by man at My crucifixion have not been revealed to the world in the way they were meant to be.

Response: The revelation of Jesus’ passion is found in the four Gospels, which are inspired by God.

To claim that the events around Jesus’ crucifixion have not been revealed as they were meant to be belittles Biblical revelation. It implies that the Gospel accounts are defective.

But this cannot be, for God Himself is the author of Scripture which manifests his mind and will. Maria Divine Mercy has not got this point right. Is anyone sniffing heresy?

(3) Message (31 January 2012): I grant them [my disciples] [a] plenary indulgence to enable them carry My torch of fire so that they can spread conversion. They must say this prayer for seven consecutive days and they will be given the gift of total absolution and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Response: Private revelations often contain promises of special rewards for faithful followers. But there are two big problems here.

(a) Jesus does not grant plenary indulgences. He has delegated the dispensing of indulgences to Church authorities. They decide what pious practices merit a plenary indulgence, and the conditions.

(b) total absolution of sins comes through the sacrament of penance, not from reciting a particular prayer over a 7-day period, however meritorious that prayer may be.

This small sampling of messages should make it clear that the views on the ‘warning’ website contain serious doctrinal errors and are not a reliable guide to the Catholic faith.

http://www.alive.ie/fr-owen-gorman-column.html

qrrgprgua

totus tuus wrote: »

There are doctrinal errors in some of her messages, and she should be given a wide berth. Sadly, she has many followers.

http://www.alive.ie/fr-owen-gorman-column.html

Yes.. Hard to tell who these "anonymous" bloggers are.

Manach

Whilst it is positive that the Vatican maintains some lines of communication with this regime for the sake of our co-religious, these acts show that the present incumbents are the ideological heirs of Mao which have inflicted so much damage on the Chinese people.

Bob the Seducer

This whole appointing of bishops by the Chinese authorities has been going on for quite some time. (note I deliberately use the term appointing)
I would take it that the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association has a number of purposes, the primary one being to allow a sort of religious freedom in the country while removing external influences from the chain of authority within it.

There are similar organisations both for Protestants and Muslims in China, I'm not certain on the way their leadership structure functions but I'd say it's a safe bet that those at the top are considered first and foremost to be good Communists. It's likely that the acid test in qualifying to lead one of these organisations is ones unwavering loyalty to the party doctrine rather than the strength of one's faith.

The illicitness of these bishop appointments is predicated on the assumption that the CPCA and the Catholic Church are one and the same. I'm not sure that I would automatically make that leap. While the day to day functioning of the Chinese Catholic Church may ostensibly be the same as the mainstream Catholic Church the authority structure higher up appears to have been replaced with a home grown construct more palatable to Communist governance.

qrrgprgua

wexie wrote: »

What human rights would that be? The right to have been approved by the pope if you're going to be appointed a bishop?

I'll quite happily agree with you that China don't have the best record on human rights but if you genuinely think that this drivel has anything to do with it I'm afraid......actually...you know what? There's no point arguing with people like you.

Carry on

The Pope does not appoint all bishops.. he appoints some and approves others. But the bishop has to be in communion with Rome. otherwise he is not catholic.

What China is doing is inventing their own church.. Which is not free.

prinz

wexie wrote: »

What human rights would that be?

Freedom of religion not good enough for you?

golden lane

this is the most uninteresting threade... the right to chose, is better than the right to be chosen....

lmaopml

It's rather amazing that what is not newsworthy is how many Christians and Catholics are being killed for just being Christians. The western media is very much 'what we want to hear' and nothing unpleasant thanks..but more interested in some Bishop who lays hands on someone who is against communion.

In North Korea there are Roman Catholics celebrating Mass in the ruins of a building made for worship, this is happening for over sixty years, they celebrate in the ruins. All over the world there are Christians dying every single day because they are looking for freedom of worship. In Nigeria, it's a daily thing a struggle to be peaceful and religious - risking ones life to be Christian.

In Ireland we once had this state of affairs, but we've forgot. We've become precious to ourselves, but tap the surface and perhaps we will remember those others who are really being persecuted for their faith - there are people dying every day for just being Christian and also Catholic and attending Mass. We've become accustomed to having mass, and don't realise how walking through the doors for some is literally risking their lives. We should know better - I think it's a learning curve.

newmug

It seems our case is a forgetting curve!

Woodward

prinz wrote: »

Freedom of religion not good enough for you?

How does this impose on someones right to believe in what they want?

newmug

Woodward wrote: »

How does this impose on someones right to believe in what they want?

It doesn't. It imposes on your right to practice what you believe. For example, you need a bishop for confirmation, or to forgive a mortal sin. If you go to one of these non-Vatican "bishops", it aint the real deal.

murraykil

newmug wrote: »

For anyone following the messages from Maria Devine Mercy, this looks exactly like one of the predictions rolled out there a few weeks ago! The Catholic Church will split, with the original one falling off almost into obscurity, while a parallel, but evil, church will rise in power conning millions of people to follow IT instead of the real one. Scary.

I dread to think of how a new Catholic church could be more evil than the current Roman one which accommodated an international paedophile ring! :eek: That is scary!

newmug

murraykil wrote: »

I dread to think of how a new Catholic church could be more evil than the current Roman one which accommodated an international paedophile ring! :eek: That is scary!

I cant tell if you're trolling, or just ignorant, but this is the CHRISTIANITY thread, you know!?!

Gumbi

Onesimus wrote: »

newmug wrote: »

For anyone following the messages from Maria Devine Mercy, this looks exactly like one of the predictions rolled out there a few weeks ago! The Catholic Church will split, with the original one falling off almost into obscurity, while a parallel, but evil, church will rise in power conning millions of people to follow IT instead of the real one. Scary.

I have never heard of Maria. Who is she?

I wouldn't bother investigating. The poster is clearly engaging in confirmation bias.

prinz

Woodward wrote: »

How does this impose on someones right to believe in what they want?

The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association? I.E. the one party state-controlled body purporting to represent and administer Catholics in China?

You don't find it odd that the only recognised body of authority over Chinese Catholics is a bureaucracy established by the rulers of a Communist authoritarian state? Does that sound like freedom of religion to you? It's amazing how bishops appointed by the state board never seem to criticise....the state. Odd that coincidence.

In this case it's 'believe in what you want, but only if what you want is the official state interpretation'. The same goes for other faiths too as it happens, such as the Chinese Patriotic Islamic Association etc... before you even get to outright bannings like the Falun Gong.

28064212

prinz wrote: »

The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association? I.E. the one party state-controlled body purporting to represent and administer Catholics in China?

Is it illegal to not recognise the CPCA as representing and administering Catholics in China? If you choose to recognise the Pope instead, what happens? Genuine question.

prinz

28064212 wrote: »

Is it illegal to not recognise the CPCA as representing and administering Catholics in China? If you choose to recognise the Pope instead, what happens? Genuine question.

In mainland China there is an 'underground' Catholic Church with ties to Rome. Clergy who have refused to cooperate with the CPCA have been imprisoned, killed etc in the early days. There are still reports of clerics being arrested, detained, intimidated. PDN IIRC would have more knowledge of the underground Christian churches in China, but you get reports like..

Benedict also directly criticised China, where recently Catholics loyal to the pope were forced to attend a series of events by the state-backed church which does not recognise his authority, bringing relations with the Vatican to a low point.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2010/12/2010122515725419201.html

Found this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59911601

And this..

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1229123-1,00.html


I'd hazard a guess and say it probably is illegal to openly defy the CPCA but I'm not sure about how hard they crack down on dissenters.

totus tuus

Newly ordained Bishop of Shanghai goes missing!

Franticfrank

Any idea why the Chinese are doing this though? Surely it would be easier to install a genuine Bishop instead. I assume these guys are corrupt or something. Still, the immediate excommunication attitude isn't too great in my opinion. Dialogue is necessary, especially when statistics show China has 67 million Christians. I even got excommunicated from the church when I lived in Germany for refusing to pay them church tax. I asked, can I stay if I'm not able to pay...is it all about money? They said, if you can't pay, get out of the Catholic church.

prinz

Franticfrank wrote: »

Any idea why the Chinese are doing this though? Surely it would be easier to install a genuine Bishop instead. I assume these guys are corrupt or something..

State control. If the state controls who is charge there is less likelihood of a bishop for example standing up to them or being overly vocal on human rights abuses or other issues. They appoint senior clerics who are deemed 'safe' to the state's interests, i.e. won't rock the boat, buying into the party's politics goes hand in hand with appointment to the Chinese church.

TheIrishGrover

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Because its another show of their disregard for human rights.

Yeah well, it's the Catholic Church. What are you going to do?

newmug

Gumbi wrote: »

I wouldn't bother investigating. The poster is clearly engaging in confirmation bias.

Who do you mean, me or Onesimus?

Franticfrank wrote: »

Any idea why the Chinese are doing this though? Surely it would be easier to install a genuine Bishop instead. I assume these guys are corrupt or something. Still, the immediate excommunication attitude isn't too great in my opinion. Dialogue is necessary, especially when statistics show China has 67 million Christians. I even got excommunicated from the church when I lived in Germany for refusing to pay them church tax. I asked, can I stay if I'm not able to pay...is it all about money? They said, if you can't pay, get out of the Catholic church.

Bull.

Gumbi

newmug wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

I wouldn't bother investigating. The poster is clearly engaging in confirmation bias.

Who do you mean, me or Onesimus?

Franticfrank wrote: »

Any idea why the Chinese are doing this though? Surely it would be easier to install a genuine Bishop instead. I assume these guys are corrupt or something. Still, the immediate excommunication attitude isn't too great in my opinion. Dialogue is necessary, especially when statistics show China has 67 million Christians. I even got excommunicated from the church when I lived in Germany for refusing to pay them church tax. I asked, can I stay if I'm not able to pay...is it all about money? They said, if you can't pay, get out of the Catholic church.

Bull.

You.

newmug

Gumbi wrote: »

You.

What do you mean? I'm not "engaging" in anything!

Gumbi

newmug wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

You.

What do you mean? I'm not "engaging" in anything!

You seemed to have attached credibility to ridiculous claims.

newmug

Gumbi wrote: »

You seemed to have attached credibility to ridiculous claims.

What are you on about? Where did I do such a thing?

Gumbi

newmug wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

You seemed to have attached credibility to ridiculous claims.

What are you on about? Where did I do such a thing?

Your first post in this thread.

mdebets

Franticfrank wrote: »

I even got excommunicated from the church when I lived in Germany for refusing to pay them church tax. I asked, can I stay if I'm not able to pay...is it all about money? They said, if you can't pay, get out of the Catholic church.

Just to correct you here, you are not actually excommunicated, but you have to leave the Catholic Church, if you don't want to pay the Church Tax.
And it's not actually done on request of the Catholic Church, but it is a requirement from the State.
If you are a member of any recognized Religious Organisation (there are a few besides the Catholic Church), you have to pay the Church Tax (collected by Inland Revenue and passed on to the Religious Organisation). If you don't want to pay the tax, you just have to declare yourself no longer a member of the organisation and you don't have to pay it anymore.

Franticfrank

If you don't want to pay the tax, you just have to declare yourself no longer a member of the organisation and you don't have to pay it anymore.

Thanks for clearing that up. Still, an whether its an ultimatum from the state or the church about paying money, I feel its clearly wrong. Anyhow, I don't want to derail the thread and move onto church tax, thats a discussion for another day.

Franticfrank

Franticfrank wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. Still, an whether its an ultimatum from the state or the church about paying money, I feel its clearly wrong. Anyhow, I don't want to derail the thread and move onto church tax, thats a discussion for another day.

I think it's a good thing, if you introduced that here, maybe all the pretend catholics might start facing up to reality

totus tuus

bluewolf wrote: »

I think it's a good thing, if you introduced that here, maybe all the pretend catholics might start facing up to reality

Good point!

joseph brand

Onesimus wrote: »

Is there nothing that can be done about these terrible acts?

How are other Christians not of the Catholic faith coping in China?

Are you serious?

A bishop has the wrong medal/ document/ whatever. What IS the world coming to?

newmug

joseph brand wrote: »

Are you serious?

A bishop has the wrong medal/ document/ whatever. What IS the world coming to?

How do you ignore someone on boards?

newmug

Gumbi wrote: »

Your first post in this thread.

You misunderstood. I was merely pointing out a coincidental similarity.

Gumbi

newmug wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

Your first post in this thread.

You misunderstood. I was merely pointing out a coincidental similarity.

Ah. Noted.

Cossax

newmug wrote: »

How do you ignore someone on boards?

Click on their name, a small menu should drop down and you can add them to your ignore list.