HP in 1999 coming back to haunt me , where do I stand ?

shooter57

Hi folks I'd appreciate any advice I can get .
Bought a car with OH at the time on HP ,(In the year 1999 ) , (13 years ago now) a year later we split up , OH signed the car over to me , we agreed i would keep the car and take over the payments .
A year later I decided I didn't want the car but couldn't sell it as there was finance outstanding , so a family memeber expressed interest .We agreed family member would take the car and take over the monthly payments . I trusted family member .
Got in touch with my bank who gave me the loan and told them this , I was transferring the car into family members name . Fine I thought , untill a year later I find said family memeber never sent off the forms I asked them to , and never paid a penny towards the car .
Again I ring my bank and inform them , soon after said family member writes off the car and claims insurance , spent insurance on themselves and never paid a penny towards the bank .I was very ill in hospital at the time and couldn't really follow what was going on . This was in the year 2000.

never heard another word from the bank for 6 years , until I get a letter one day , telling me I owe 3000 e , when I saw this is all it was I decided to ring (debt collection company at this stage ) and make an agreement
of monthly instalments , to clear it as I knew it needed to be paid . fine , untill I get a letter the next day from same company to say they made a mistake it is actually 6000e .By then I became disheartened . I paid afew hundered euro off and noticed the company has disappeared into thin air , gone .This was 2005 .

fast forward to 2010 , a debt collector turns up at my door , I told him this was a loan from 1999 , he couldn't believe it and didn't seem too interested and never heard from him again .

Today I got a letter in the post from a new debt collection agency threatining court . |I made a monthly installment agreement with him .

So a few questions are : why didn't they bring me to court years ago ? is it because they know it's a lost cause and is this a cowboy debt collection agency chancing their arm with me ?

2. where do I stand on this , considering the car is long dead and the loan was 13 years ago , is there a time period where debts become void ?
Thanks for any help .

Farcear

Did you make a payment agreement with the debt collector recently?

shooter57

Farcear wrote: »

Did you make a payment agreement with the debt collector recently?

yes I did , just yesterday .but it was just over the phone nothing signed .

newmug

Why are you even entertaining any of this? Get said relation, give him a good kick in the arse for not paying the repayments on HIS car, and point any debt collectors / letters / banks in his direction.

shooter57

newmug wrote: »

Why are you even entertaining any of this? Get said relation, give him a good kick in the arse for not paying the repayments on HIS car, and point any debt collectors / letters / banks in his direction.

tHanks for your reply newmug , I wish I could !!! at the end of the day doesn't it all come down to the HP being in my name ? said family member never sent in the forms so the loan was always in my name .:(

krd

You should probably not pay anything to the debt collection agency.

Often they've just bought written off debts from banks at a massive discount - could be pence in a grand. Then they try to collect.

Paying or not paying the collection agency will have no effect on your credit rating.

Speak to the original lender. If they've written off the debt then you're really not obliged to pay anyone anything.

All you really should be concerned with is your credit rating.

The debt collection agency doubling the amount from 3 to 6 grand could be a case of "we've found a sucker - let's suck him".

Speak to the bank. But remember to take everything anyone says with a pinch of salt. If the original loan was unsecured - no one can collect anything - but it can effect your credit rating.

The original car loan may have had insurance to cover the car in the event of a right off, or something like that.

These debt collection agencies tend to be run by Fagan types - with Oliver Twists making the phone calls.

ResearchWill

shooter57 wrote: »

yes I did , just yesterday .

Then you started the statute of limitations again, admitting the debt is your problem.

newmug

shooter57 wrote: »

tHanks for your reply newmug , I wish I could !!! at the end of the day doesn't it all come down to the HP being in my name ? said family member never sent in the forms so the loan was always in my name .:(

What KRD said above - and no, it doesn't all come down to the loan being in your name! Another thing you could do is fill in the forms yourself. If the relation wont sign them, you sign them for him;). You could also go down the legal route and get him forced to sign them, but it wouldnt be worth the time, hassle, or money. If you did though, it would all then be at his doorstep, not yours **cough**

shooter57

ok well another problem i have with this crowd is i asked him on the phone to send me out reciepts, his reply to this was they couldnt do this as they are dealing with too many cases just now but i can ring up at any time to get an up to date balance, i thought that very strange, now to be totally honest after giving it a good think i am really thinking hard about about just ignoring it altogether and hoping for the best but he did say to me if i relapse on this payment they wont be as lenient next time so i am a little worrried, could fagan and oliver turn up at the door looking for money off me?

krd

newmug wrote: »

Another thing you could do is fill in the forms yourself. If the relation wont sign them, you sign them for him;).

Careful.........if you get caught doing something like that, that you shouldn't - it's jail time.

shooter57

krd wrote: »

Careful.........if you get caught doing something like that, that you shouldn't - it's jail time.

that won't happen , it was 12 years ago i found the forms unsigned which were meant to be sent in the previous year. there are no forms now .


can these guys bring me to court ?

Farcear

shooter57 wrote: »

can these guys bring me to court ?

Yes (but seek legal advice), because:

ResearchWill wrote: »

Then you started the statute of limitations again, admitting the debt is your problem.

Debts usually become statute barred after 6 years. However, if the debtor acknowledges the debt after the 6 year limit, the clock starts again.

lightspeed

You said that your relative wrote off the car and claimed the insurance. Can i ask how he was legally insured and able to claim insurance as if im not mistaken do you not have to be the registered owner of a vehicle to be the primary policy holder.

If he was third party would he not have had to be on your insurance policy as you are the registered owner of the vehicle. Therefore surely any claim could only have come through you.

So if he did not tell the insurance company that he was not the registered owner, he is guilty of fraud. Give him 48 hours to arrange something or report a fraudulent insurance claim to the insurers and the Gardai.
When my brother was being interviewed for a temporary visa application (10 year visa i think) to the USA they wanted him to prove that he had something to come back to like an asset such as a house or car.
I tried to register my car into his name but the insurance company told me by law that you must be the registered owner to be the primary policy holder.

Also how come they did not get in touch with you until now after all this time. This seems dodgy to me. You should seek legal advice if you believe its legit. Get a solictor to contact them and demand that they prove that you actually owe them anything and demand receipts of all payments made.

As regards to acknowledging the debt, id want a solicitor to review what you actually agreed to. In fact could you not just deny signing anything and claim that they forged your signature. Where there any independant witnesses to this new agreement? Where all terms and conditions clearly stated.

shooter57

lightspeed wrote: »

You said that your relative wrote off the car and claimed the insurance. Can i ask how he was legally insured and able to claim insurance as if im not mistaken do you not have to be the registered owner of a vehicle to be the primary policy holder.

If he was third party would he not have had to be on your insurance policy as you are the registered owner of the vehicle. Therefore surely any claim could only have come through you.

So if he did not tell the insurance company that he was not the registered owner, he is guilty of fraud. Give him 48 hours to arrange something or report a fraudulent insurance claim to the insurers and the Gardai.
When my brother was being interviewed for a temporary visa application (10 year visa i think) to the USA they wanted him to prove that he had something to come back to like an asset such as a house or car.
I tried to register my car into his name but the insurance company told me by law that you must be the registered owner to be the primary policy holder.

Also how come they did not get in touch with you until now after all this time. This seems dodgy to me. You should seek legal advice if you believe its legit. Get a solictor to contact them and demand that they prove that you actually owe them anything and demand receipts of all payments made.

As regards to acknowledging the debt, id want a solicitor to review what you actually agreed to. In fact could you not just deny signing anything and claim that they forged your signature. Where there any independant witnesses to this new agreement? Where all terms and conditions clearly stated.

hi , thanks for your reply . I didn't sign anything , I just spoke to a "fagan" over the phone .

I did give him my bank account details though:( no ,no witnesses just me and him chatting on the phone , never recieved any correspondence , terms or conditions etc , I agreed to a monthly repayment but I told him I want receipts for these , he told me "we are too busy , we have too many clients on our books to give statements or receipts " , alarm bells ?


I don't have a lot of money , I am not working at the moment , could I still speak to a solicitior ?


Also sorry forgot to add , that when me and family member agreed about the car , i sent the log book off , so car and insurance was in family members name .


so , can i get back on to these guys and tell them I want to retract my agreement untill I seek legal advice ?

Donkathon

Dont bother seeking any legal advice atm pm on the way,

shooter57

ResearchWill wrote: »

Then you started the statute of limitations again, admitting the debt is your problem.

even if it was just over the phone ? I didn't sign anything .

Donkathon

shooter57 wrote: »

even if it was just over the phone ? I didn't sign anything .

YES

most calls are recorded now,

pm sent

shooter57

he never said it was being recorded , is he obliged to tell me if it is ?


donkathon, sent you a pm back there.

lightspeed

well you could try free legal aid
http://www.flac.ie/

Im not sure exactly what they do but you could give them a shout. I think what another post mentioned about there being a limitation of when a debt expires may also have some truth to it. The fact that they cant provide receipts is definately not just suspicious but illegal. Contact the free legal aid and im sure they will confirm this.

It sounds like he cant provide receipts cause its either a complete scam or he actually has no accurate records of this debt and the correct repayments against it. If that is the case, I highly doubt they would take it to court. Remember in a court case, if you lose, you will have to pay the expense of the other party and of course that goes both ways. If they dont have a legally sound argument, thats surely not something they are going to want to push for.
But im not a solicitor, and you really should seek proper advise. If they ring you again, I suggest you should verify where there office is and request their company registration number. If they seem reluctant, Id tell them you want the information to report it to the Gardai as you dont believe they are legit.

If they are legit then there is no reason why they should not be able to provide such information. Even if they are a legit debt collection agency, that is no indication that they have sound legal argument.
Considering they look like they gonna try and screw you, it would probably be better if it went to court, cause the judge will see your side as well. The fact that you made payments and they have not be able to provide receipts and also even that your unemployed should mean that the judge would arrange more reasonable settlement than the debt collection agency.

Again im speculating somewhat, If you believe it is legit you should seek some legal advice. I would not sign anything or give any money until you have sought sound legal advise.

ResearchWill

shooter57 wrote: »

hi , thanks for your reply . I didn't sign anything , I just spoke to a "fagan" over the phone .

I did give him my bank account details though:( no ,no witnesses just me and him chatting on the phone , never recieved any correspondence , terms or conditions etc , I agreed to a monthly repayment but I told him I want receipts for these , he told me "we are too busy , we have too many clients on our books to give statements or receipts " , alarm bells ?


I don't have a lot of money , I am not working at the moment , could I still speak to a solicitior ?


Also sorry forgot to add , that when me and family member agreed about the car , i sent the log book off , so car and insurance was in family members name .


so , can i get back on to these guys and tell them I want to retract my agreement untill I seek legal advice ?

Most of these companies have call recording, if not recorded and they issue proceedings and you plead the statute then it will be your word against theirs. If they have recording of you agreeing a repayment then that more than likely restarts the statute.

The relevant section

56.—(1) Where—

(a) any right of action has accrued to recover any debt, and

(b) the person liable therefor acknowledges the debt,

the right of action shall be deemed to have accrued on and not before the date of the acknowledgment.

You need advice if they contact you or issue proceedings.

lightspeed

Most companies involved in regular litigation such as a debt collection agency would surely be able to provide receipts for payments made. They say they cant provide receipts but you just assume they are a legit debt collection agency and have the call recorded. Id have doubts of how well such a phone call would hold up in court. Could he not say he thought it was someone else regarding a different debt or that he thought it was a wind up and played along. It would really depend on the conversation. I would not just assume they have the call recorded purely on the basis of imagination. Id call their bluff. They say u acknowledged the debt but they cant acknowledge receipt of payment. How is that legal?

ResearchWill

lightspeed wrote: »

Most companies involved in regular litigation such as a debt collection agency would surely be able to provide receipts for payments made. They say they cant provide receipts but you just assume they are a legit debt collection agency and have the call recorded. Id have doubts of how well such a phone call would hold up in court. Could he not say he thought it was someone else regarding a different debt or that he thought it was a wind up and played along. It would really depend on the conversation. I would not just assume they have the call recorded purely on the basis of imagination. Id call their bluff. They say u acknowledged the debt but they cant acknowledge receipt of payment. How is that legal?

A lot of companies do not provide receipts, if the repayments are by cheque or DD or SO. They may provide an annual statement, but many companies do not provide receipts for electronic payments, the payments themselves are proof.

In relation to the acknowledgment of the debt, the OP if I remember stated that they agreed a certain repayment. If the OP did not do this then fine that evidence can be given if the matter goes to court. If on the other hand the OP did agree a repayment then the only way to deny that would be to lie under oath in court again only if the matter goes that far.

The OP would be best if contacted again to ask for all information on the CLAIMED debt to be sent, copy original documents etc. then if they are sent seek legal advice.

Kristopherus

I've read this thread and cannot believe that someone could be so naive in this day and age. OP. I don't wish to insult you at all, but you really have burned your bridges at this stage. When the bank first contacted you, you should have told them get lost. As already posted, you have a new 6-year contract started as concerns litigation. And you are now again legally obliged to pay off the original finance. The only suggestion I can make is to offer the bank the original outstanding amount , if they agree to write off the interest element.

As regards your contacts with the debt collectors, if the calls were recorded, then a contract exists and you should seek legal advice.

As regards the relative, your username is Shooter....................;)

Farcear

Kristopherus wrote: »

And you are now again legally obliged to pay off the original finance.

That is an arguable point.

Maybe the contract was validly assigned.

newmug

Kristopherus wrote: »

I've read this thread and cannot believe that someone could be so naive in this day and age. OP. I don't wish to insult you at all, but you really have burned your bridges at this stage. When the bank first contacted you, you should have told them get lost. As already posted, you have a new 6-year contract started as concerns litigation. And you are now again legally obliged to pay off the original finance. The only suggestion I can make is to offer the bank the original outstanding amount , if they agree to write off the interest element.

As regards your contacts with the debt collectors, if the calls were recorded, then a contract exists and you should seek legal advice.

As regards the relative, your username is Shooter....................;)

Eh, whose voice was that on the phone? Did the caller ask for some proof or form of photo ID of who he was talking to??????

I didnt think so!

ResearchWill

newmug wrote: »

Eh, whose voice was that on the phone? Did the caller ask for some proof or form of photo ID of who he was talking to??????

I didnt think so!

The OP has admitted they spoke to someone and agreed to a prepayment. To say it is not their voice and they never had the call would require the telling a lie under oath.

lightspeed

If its not usual for them to provide receipts why would they not instantly say, i cant provide individual receipts of payment but I can send you a statement clearly showing how and when the paymemts were made with the exact time and dates. This does not sound like something they offered which is quite suspicious to me.
As regards to acknowledging the debt, surely they would also have to have all the original documentation to prove that the debt actually exists.
Otherwise would it not be the case that If i rang some poor old person and convinces them over the phone that they owe me money, they would then be liable if i managed to convince them to admit to the debt.
Surely such a system does not exist.
Given the above, Id agree with the other poster that they would have to provide the necessary documention and id have no further written or phone communication with them until they provided such.
Cant they give you their location and you can meet them in person at their office and demand to see the original documentation?
As at least then they wont have evidence of you requesting such information regarding the debt.
If they seem legit, you should seek legal advice. A solicitor will be better able to judge how likely they are to take it to court and the chances of the other party succeeding in case against you.

Our man in Havana

Surely such a system does not exist.

Oh but it does. Once someone admits they owe a debt you have them by the balls.

newmug

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Oh but it does. Once someone admits they owe a debt you have them by the balls.

Interesting. Extracting it from them might be a different story though.

Tom Young

Advocating the falsification of signature is a criminal offence. The above thread is a train wreck and is not closed.