Walter white Good guy or bad guy?

CMpunked

Poll would be more suitable to those who are up to speed with where the show is at the moment.


When breaking bad started out I felt really bad for Walt, being told his life would be changing until it wasn't to exist anymore, his questionable 'honorable' idea of putting his neck on the line to leave them with money after he is gone seemed like a good plan.

But obviously he has done some pretty downright dirty deeds over the last 4 years.

My question is if Walt is to die at the end of the 5th season (regardless of how), looking at it from this point, pre-season 5, would you view him as a victim of circumstance or was he the bad guy from the beginning?
Needlessly disrupting the lives of all those around him when he could have just taken that job with Ted's company and probably get better treatment and could have lived longer and still get the money to his family that way.

Anyway, what do you think?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

CMpunked wrote: »

?
Needlessly disrupting the lives of all those around him when he could have just taken that job with Ted's company and probably get better treatment and could have lived longer and still get the money to his family that way.

that would have made for a great tv show

CMpunked

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

that would have made for a great tv show

yeah i thought that just as i posted the question.
But the question still remains, was he always the bad guy?

Mousewar

He was cowed by his wife his whole married life - the quintessential weak-willed husband. The cancer and his initial good intention gave him a taste for taking control and not playing the nice guy. He liked it and from about episode 2 onwards, that, rather than his impending doom, was the motivation for his behaviour.
He's the bad guy, no question. Just depends whether he redeems himself before the end or not.

frag420

Walt is a good guy. I believe that while his actions were questionable his motives were honourable as its always boiled down to providing for his family and securing their future.

The fact it turned him into a badass is just a bonus!!

If he was my dad I would be proud:D

noname123

His underlying motives are good, but he has allowed himself to be corrupted by his desires.

It is worth noting that every single main character is also shown to have their own vices.

SirDelboy18

Think the S4 finale has put him firmly in the "bad guy" category.

dark crystal

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Think the S4 finale has put him firmly in the "bad guy" category.

To a point, yes. However,

he didn't really have a choice but to kill Gus - it was Gus or him in the end.

True, poisoning the kid was a low blow, but how else was he supposed to get Jesse on side? In that sense, it was fight or flight and he chose the former in order to protect himself and his family.

His method may have been somewhat morally questionable, but all that planning....ingenious.

krudler

he's good but does deplorable things throughout the seasons, the end of season 4 being the icing on the cake, but its more the situations he finds himself in that needs extreme solutions more than him being out and out bad.

Footoo

Last I checked the show wasn't called Breaking Good

FZ

He & Jesse are polar opposites.

Therapy etc has convinced Jesse that he's the bad guy and that he should just embrace it. This jars with his basic personality, which is one grounded in decency. He does stray from the path, but his moral compass is, more or less, one that works.

WW, on the other hand, has through his descent into the meth trade gotten to the point where he has liberated his inner sociopath. His intentions ceased to be truly noble after a point.

dave1982

Walter is bad the 1st real sign of it was imo Season II

When Walter took the blood stained money from Jesse after the ATM fell on the guys head

Da Shins Kelly

I think he has good intentions and has his family's best interests at heart, but has become greedy and believes his own hype so to speak which is deviating him from his original plan. He's now obsessed with living up to the legend and pursuing his own desires to become kingpin and feeding his own ego. However, he still cares deeply about his family and wants the best for them. So, I wouldn't say that he's either completely good or completely bad. He's just human. And that's what's so great about the show - nobody is perfect. They all have redeeming qualities and flaws. I do still think that Jesse is the true moral compass of the show though.

Mr.Saturn

dark crystal wrote: »

To a point, yes. However,

he didn't really have a choice but to kill Gus - it was Gus or him in the end.

True, poisoning the kid was a low blow, but how else was he supposed to get Jesse on side? In that sense, it was fight or flight and he chose the former in order to protect himself and his family.

His method may have been somewhat morally questionable, but all that planning....ingenious.

Another thing I don't see pointed out too often, Lily of the Valley is only fatal in high doses, more than what was seemingly available on that plant. Walt, as a chemistry buff, must've known that much. Mind, Jesse did say it was touch and go at one point, so who knows? Coupled with Walt's seeming relief in hearing Brock's recovery. I don't think we've quite seen full-on sociopath Walt.

On a related note, if you've just poisoned your business partner's step-son with something out of your backgarden, wouldn't you first move be disposing of the implicative plant?

CMpunked

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

Another thing I don't see pointed out too often, Lily of the Valley is only fatal in high doses, more than what was seemingly available on that plant. Walt, as a chemistry buff, must've known that much. Mind, Jesse did say it was touch and go at one point, so who knows? Coupled with Walt's seeming relief in hearing Brock's recovery. I don't think we've quite seen full-on sociopath Walt.

On a related note, if you've just poisoned your business partner's step-son with something out of your backgarden, wouldn't you first move be disposing of the implicative plant?

When is walt ever going to invite jesse round for dinner?
If he hasnt done it yet, he sure as hell isnt going to start now.

Mr.Saturn

The point was veering more towards the opposite of a dinner date. I mean, almost every time Jesse's turned up at Walt's house, it was unannounced.

Chloris

Not that I don't respect what he's doing and everything; he started out with good intentions in trying to make a better life for his family after he dies. Looking at where he's gotten in his business ventures and the dangerous situations he has put himself, his family and friends in (look at poor Hank and Jesse and all the crap they've had to endure), he really shouldn't continue cooking.

He has become arrogant about his status as the best meth cook. He seems totally oblivious to the lives he's ruining by making the meth so easily attainable in New Mexico, and so much more addictive because of the high quality (well, I don't do meth but I'd imagine the better it is, the more you want it). It's not about the money he's making for his family anymore, it's more about his pride now.

squonk

I look at it this way, up to seaon 3 and partly in S4 I had sympathy for Walt. I would have said he was a basically good guy caught up in a rough world and that his new world dictated the rules to him. What he did, he was forced to do by circumstances to protect himself, Jesse or his family.

That Walt I would have had no problem going for a pint with. If you knew the whole story you'd have sympathy for him and if he wasn't telling you something you'd know his motivation was to protect you.

Now however I would not go for a pint with Walt. His showdown with Gus has changed him. His ego has taken over and, based on 5x01, there is real reason to fear him now. I would frankly cross the road if I saw him coming against me. Now he could kill you for show, or because it was convenient and I'm not really sure that a killing would occupy his mind in quite the same way anymore.

A turning point for me was when he let Jesse's girlfriend die. There was something particularly code about that. He has become more used to making decisions like that since and I think his version of morality is now incredibly skewed and very far beyond the norm.

I see Jesse as the good guy in the relationship now. Early on, compared to Walt, Jesse was the bad guy, selling weed etc. Jesse has never really strayed from his particular level of vice however. Walter on the other hand has gotten more and more mired in vice to the point now where he makes Jesse look like a saint. I think you now have to hate Walter on balance. He's not a nice guy at all these days.

What a great show though that makes you analyse it so this extent! It's why it's the best show on TV right now.

blatantrereg

I thought he was bad from the start. Always struck me as being driven by a desire for self-aggrandisement more than concern for his family. I dont perceive him as becoming more bad, but just becoming more empowered. At the start he is repressed, pussy-whipped, doesn't know much about what he's getting into, and his sickness is much more physically debilitating. A wolf in sheep's clothing really.

BloatedPope

Unless I'm mistaken the creator(s) of the show's original intent was to write a story in which the main protagonist becomes a villain. They have achieved this brilliantly as Walt is now (by which I mean season 5) firmly in the villain category. It's his past and the honorable intentions that led him to this point that make him such an interesting character. I don't like the man he's become but I'm still sympathetic to him. Such a great show

FouxDaFaFa

Walt is a bad guy but likes to think he's a good guy. From the very, very start he was enjoying himself. His silly Heisenberg hat, etc. That wasn't part of his noble, sacrificing plan. That was him getting off on the situation. (Literally, doing illegal stuff reignited his sex life with Skylar).

The first big red flag for me was when he watched Jane die. It was cold. I've watched it a few times since and I even brought it up with Vince Gilligan when I met him because I was so bothered by it but my friend thought it had been "necessary".

He could have taken the job he was offered like the above poster said. He's the reason Hank nearly became a parapalegic and yet, he went back to cooking. When the cartel was after him, he sent his neighbour in to his house before him, willing to let them kill her if that's what they were going to do.

He's killed and made Jesse kill for him. Watching him in 5x01 and his cold demeanour sealed the deal for me.

In contrast, Jesse was the traditional "bad guy" at the start but he's always been the moral conscience of the show, the one who struggles to cope mentally with what he's doing.

Varied

The guy lived life as a timid walkover, everyone bullied him and put him down (especially the wife), he lost his girlfriend to some wanker that stole his ideas and worked for an asshole in a 2nd job at a car wash on top of his low paid job as a chemistry teacher.

This is a very intelligent man that wasn't allowed to use his creative genius, he was crippled by his good nature and basically lived life on a leash.

On top of all that he gets cancer.

He then tries to provide a nest egg for his family using a little bit of that creative genius, by cooking meth. He is then bullied by Gus, leaving him with no choice but to cook, as a result, again feeling downtrodden.

I think the guy is just unleashing all that pent up frustration and creative genius and boy is it going to make for good TV.

FouxDaFaFa

Yeah, there's definitely an element of him finally being a bit reckless and living life, enjoying life, which he didn't get to do before. At first, it was easy to cheer for him because I think we all want that at times. To just throw caution to the wind and do something crazy. But he's done it in such a destructive way. He likes that people are afraid of him now.

Varied

The fact that he got a kick out of saying "I forgive you" to his wife because he knew she feared him now, shows that he is making up for the **** she gave him.

Dempsey

WW had these "tendencies" since the beginning of the show. e.g. he'd do something bad, he'd come home on this buzz and try to get jiggy with the missus whether she liked it or not! Giving the kid more drink than he could handle just to prove a point with Hank. All his life he conformed to the rules of society and was often walked on. Then he was getting respect of drug dealers and criminals because he could make good meth. He was getting a kick out of Hank chasing him to the point where he got into Hanks head so he'd stay looking for him. Now he's gotten to the point where he thinks he can do what Gus Fring did, hide in plain sight, all the while manipulating everyone around him seeking respect and control.

tl;dr? He always was an adrenaline junkie that gets his kicks from sociopathic behaviour. It just took terminal lung cancer to kick off a chain of events where he started getting these kicks.

briany

squonk wrote: »

A turning point for me was when he let Jesse's girlfriend die. There was something particularly code about that. He has become more used to making decisions like that since and I think his version of morality is now incredibly skewed and very far beyond the norm.

I'm not defending it but to Walt, Jane was some nice looking junkie woman who'd gotten her claws into Jesse and was manipulating him, dragging him down with her. When he witnessed Jane's death, he was caught up by indecision knowing that letting her die was obviously a step into the dark side but also knowing that if she'd continued to live, it might have meant death for Jesse also as the pair slid ever downwards into heroin addiction.

babi-hrse

its clear that his son and daughter are close to his heart but he cannot tell them about the otherside of his life... jesse is his adopted son. who he can teach everything to. he truly loves jessie and wants him all to himself. he would kill anyone who tried to take jessie from him. He feels like jessie is the perfect student difficult to teach but gets gratification when he gets through to the difficult student. but hes trying to decide jessie's life for him. while jessie is headstrong he is young and niave and always assumes walt knows what is best for him while walt manipulates him.
one thing is clear... walter is at fault for most of the travesties that befall the duo because he always lets his pride and ego get in the way.

Mr.Saturn

-Very recent Season 5 spoilers-

I think with the killing of Mike, Walter has properly gone beyond all reasonable evil, as in the past, murders/poisonings were a strictly means-to-an-end affair for Mr.White, with Walt having no outright desire to cause needless harm to others unless they get in the way of his goals, but his slaying of Mike was just a dog-brained consequence of his ego-driven temper. Now, it's a scary precedent, as Walt regrets killing Mike, but he's shown in the past that he comes to terms with conflicts of conscience increasingly quick. Basically, who's next?

ScumLord

He's definitely broke bad. I don't think he even has good intentions any more he's using everyone around him and expects them all to bend to his will. Any sympathetic bone he had in his body has been shattered at this stage. He's a full on bad guy.

I wouldn't be on his side any more, I think it's only a matter of time before his bad deeds catch up on him especially with all the crazy risks he's taking. It's a real insight into how what appears to be a good person can quickly be corrupted by power and money, although with Walt, it's all about the power at this stage the money is only an added bonus.

April O Neill

FZ wrote: »

He & Jesse are polar opposites.

Therapy etc has convinced Jesse that he's the bad guy and that he should just embrace it. This jars with his basic personality, which is one grounded in decency. He does stray from the path, but his moral compass is, more or less, one that works.

WW, on the other hand, has through his descent into the meth trade gotten to the point where he has liberated his inner sociopath. His intentions ceased to be truly noble after a point.

This.

blatantrereg wrote: »

I thought he was bad from the start. Always struck me as being driven by a desire for self-aggrandisement more than concern for his family. I dont perceive him as becoming more bad, but just becoming more empowered. At the start he is repressed, pussy-whipped, doesn't know much about what he's getting into, and his sickness is much more physically debilitating. A wolf in sheep's clothing really.

And this.

briany

I don't think that Walter white is bad at his core but he has become drunk on the thrill of his new business. One of the running jokes of the series is that Walter increasingly thinks he's this badass but actually he's just a self important former chemistry teacher in a stupid hat and he defers upon everybody else most of the daily dirty work while perpetuating this myth to himself that he's a drug kingpin. He may be at the top of the tree for now but it's a house of cards he built.

leggo

It's the age old battle between what defines us: our actions or our thoughts and intentions?

On the former basis, he's a bad guy. On the latter, he's still good. Or he, at least, believes he is.

Then again, if we weren't introduced to him as a middle class, respectable chemistry teacher and given a sob story about how he was pushed out of a now-billion dollar empire...would we be as sympathetic? Is he really that different from a scumbag criminal who blames the world for their problems then acts on this belief, regardless of the effects his actions have on others?

Having said that, is the above scumbag - and by extension, Walt - beyond redemption? When you look at what he's lost and will likely continue to lose, it's tough to say. There's no forgiving his actions, but at the same time that doesn't mean that he can't at least attempt to right his wrongs at a later stage. Would doing so make him a good person? No, but then who among us is 100% good? He's human and, thus, neither completely good nor bad. How you feel about him, with that in mind, is entirely subjective.

The reality is that Walt still has to be ultimately defined. It's why I also feel that he needs to die at the end of this; to give us that grand perspective from which we can all make our final judgements of him.

Dolbert

One thing that people seem to get backwards is that they assume Walter only gets the idea to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment. Watch the first episode again, he actually gets it into his head to do it before he's even diagnosed. The cancer is his way of justifying it to himself, but in reality he's been doing it because he wanted to from the start. The flashbacks to a younger Walt and Skyler show that he was always a bit of an arrogant tool, who was eventually downtrodden by his job and circumstances. The meth empire is just a chance for the 'real' WW to resurface.

MuchoLoco

When Walt let Jesse's girlfriend choke on her own sick was the turning point for me that scene was shocking.

December2012

Dolbert wrote: »

One thing that people seem to get backwards is that they assume Walter only gets the idea to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment. Watch the first episode again, he actually gets it into his head to do it before he's even diagnosed. The cancer is his way of justifying it to himself, but in reality he's been doing it because he wanted to from the start. The flashbacks to a younger Walt and Skyler show that he was always a bit of an arrogant tool, who was eventually downtrodden by his job and circumstances. The meth empire is just a chance for the 'real' WW to resurface.

Exactly. Walter has always been an asshole who believed his own hype and let it get in his way. His pride was so strong he preferred to kill people (it IS DRUGS!) instead of working for Gray Matter.

He's a bully.

gnfnrhead

Dolbert wrote: »

One thing that people seem to get backwards is that they assume Walter only gets the idea to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment. Watch the first episode again, he actually gets it into his head to do it before he's even diagnosed. The cancer is his way of justifying it to himself, but in reality he's been doing it because he wanted to from the start. The flashbacks to a younger Walt and Skyler show that he was always a bit of an arrogant tool, who was eventually downtrodden by his job and circumstances. The meth empire is just a chance for the 'real' WW to resurface.

He knew about it but I doubt he planned on acting on it. Once he was given the news however he changed his viewpoint as he knew he hadnt a lot to lose. He expected to be dead in a few months so it was worth the risk of getting caught. The idea wasnt to pay for his cancer either, it was to leave Skyler and Walt Jr. without money issues when he was gone. He worked it out at $737,000 being needed. By the time he got that, he was already too far gone.

Mousewar

Dolbert wrote: »

One thing that people seem to get backwards is that they assume Walter only gets the idea to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment. Watch the first episode again, he actually gets it into his head to do it before he's even diagnosed. The cancer is his way of justifying it to himself, but in reality he's been doing it because he wanted to from the start. The flashbacks to a younger Walt and Skyler show that he was always a bit of an arrogant tool, who was eventually downtrodden by his job and circumstances. The meth empire is just a chance for the 'real' WW to resurface.

Just watched it and that's not true. The only thing he does before his diagnosis is be amazed at how much money Hank and his crew took from the meth lab seizure from the news report on TV at his birthday. Hank offers him a ridealong there and then but he brushes off the offer.
Only after his diagnosis does he then phone Hank and ask to go along which sets the wheels in motion on his crime life.
Before his diagnosis, the only thing Walt shows an interest in is money which is a crime everyone is guilty of.

playedalive

Dolbert wrote: »

One thing that people seem to get backwards is that they assume Walter only gets the idea to cook meth to pay for his cancer treatment. Watch the first episode again, he actually gets it into his head to do it before he's even diagnosed. The cancer is his way of justifying it to himself, but in reality he's been doing it because he wanted to from the start. The flashbacks to a younger Walt and Skyler show that he was always a bit of an arrogant tool, who was eventually downtrodden by his job and circumstances. The meth empire is just a chance for the 'real' WW to resurface.

Mind you, I've only watched the first two seasons. I think Walt turns from being a disillusioned good guy to a bad guy. Despite having his intelligence and hard work, he still struggles to lead a life that rewards that accordingly. His friend stole his work and has benefited from all of that, He's also someone who can't really 'call the shots' in his own life. Only until becoming a drug lord that he can make decisions.

Can't wait for the next three seasons.

briany

playedalive wrote: »

Mind you, I've only watched the first two seasons. I think Walt turns from being a disillusioned good guy to a bad guy. Despite having his intelligence and hard work, he still struggles to lead a life that rewards that accordingly. His friend stole his work and has benefited from all of that, He's also someone who can't really 'call the shots' in his own life. Only until becoming a drug lord that he can make decisions.

Can't wait for the next three seasons.

Walt's not yet come to the position of power he seems to crave. Mike cowed Walt right through S5 up until Walt shot him (in a cowardly way). Mike was really the one responsible for the day to day up until then. Walt's not got the mettle to be real tough guy drug boss. Who's he ever personally intimidated? Does he have a network of guys who respect or fear him. It seems to me that Walt is potentially a lame duck boss.

Mousewar

briany - playedalive just said he'd only watched the first two seasons. You've kinda spoiled a big part for him there.

briany

Mousewar wrote: »

briany - playedalive just said he'd only watched the first two seasons. You've kinda spoiled a big part for him there.

I'll just spoiler up my post there, hopefully he hasnt seen it yet. In fairness, if you're in the process of catching up on a TV show, it's not a great idea to hang in a forum about it. You just dont know when a spoiler's gonna get you. I learned that the hard way, unfortunately.

playedalive

briany wrote: »

I'll just spoiler up my post there, hopefully he hasnt seen it yet. In fairness, if you're in the process of catching up on a TV show, it's not a great idea to hang in a forum about it. You just dont know when a spoiler's gonna get you. I learned that the hard way, unfortunately.

Point taken. I didn't read the spoiler. See I came across this thread on the main page and ended up looking at it. I'll steer clear in future. Then, we'll have the chats.

briany

playedalive wrote: »

Point taken. I didn't read the spoiler. See I came across this thread on the main page and ended up looking at it. I'll steer clear in future. Then, we'll have the chats.

Well I didn't see your up to season 2 line so I shouldn't have been so quick to post but it still remains that forums can hit you with spoilers unexpectedly, which is a shame in a way because when you're in the midst of a show, especially in a catch up scenario, you're excited about it and want to talk about it.

Mousewar

briany wrote: »

I'll just spoiler up my post there, hopefully he hasnt seen it yet. In fairness, if you're in the process of catching up on a TV show, it's not a great idea to hang in a forum about it. You just dont know when a spoiler's gonna get you. I learned that the hard way, unfortunately.

Agreed

leggo

Mousewar wrote: »

Just watched it and that's not true. The only thing he does before his diagnosis is be amazed at how much money Hank and his crew took from the meth lab seizure from the news report on TV at his birthday. Hank offers him a ridealong there and then but he brushes off the offer.
Only after his diagnosis does he then phone Hank and ask to go along which sets the wheels in motion on his crime life.
Before his diagnosis, the only thing Walt shows an interest in is money which is a crime everyone is guilty of.

I thought this whole discussion had been settled already (with Vince Gilligan confirming as much in interviews): the seeds had been sewn years beforehand when he watched his ex build a billion dollar empire with his former partner.

The years of bitterness, being talked down to by a busybody wife and disrespected daily by unappreciative kids and an arsehole boss (with shocking eyebrows), built up a bubble that burst when he was diagnosed. This person was always within Walt, cooking meth was just the way he chose to let it come out. Nor is it just money he's after; it's the respect and power he was denied for so long that he truly covets.

Mousewar

leggo wrote: »

I thought this whole discussion had been settled already (with Vince Gilligan confirming as much in interviews): the seeds had been sewn years beforehand when he watched his ex build a billion dollar empire with his former partner.

The years of bitterness, being talked down to by a busybody wife and disrespected daily by unappreciative kids and an arsehole boss (with shocking eyebrows), built up a bubble that burst when he was diagnosed. This person was always within Walt, cooking meth was just the way he chose to let it come out. Nor is it just money he's after; it's the respect and power he was denied for so long that he truly covets.

Not sure why you're quoting me on that. I was making a very specific point that he did not get the idea to cook meth prior to his diagnosis. In the first episode, as I said, he only expresses amazement at the amount of money involved in meth cooking prior to learning of his cancer.
Obviously, there is a whole backstory that will inform the decisions he then faces but the diagnosis was the catalyst. He didn't just wake up one day and think 'Hey, I'm gonna cook meth cos I'm so bitter about all the **** that happened to me.'

leggo

It was the latest post in that ongoing discussion, and the final line referred to money as his primary motivator. That has since been explained to have been a red herring and that these issues have festered much longer. All of the points discussed stem from the Gray Matter bitterness; cooking meth is just how he chose to enact that bitterness.

So to debate when this all began in terms of "Did he want to cook meth before or after his diagnosis?" is like having a chicken and egg argument during a discussion about the big bang theory, i.e. it's kinda missing the point. Though it was originally presented as the former.

hfallada

Its kinda like the sopranos. Although they kill anyone who gets in their way and it makes them a bad person. Its their way of life, like a farmer gets his cow killed for beef. It doesnt make the farmer a murder. I think one of the best episodes in BB is when we see the life Walter could have had, if he had stayed with the software company grey matter or whatever it was called.

Although he produces one of the most harmful substances. He does it to provide for his family and unlike the cartel, he does unnecessarily kill anything like they do.

Mousewar

leggo wrote: »

and the final line referred to money as his primary motivator.

No it didn't.

leggo

Mousewar wrote: »

No it didn't.

Em...

Mousewar wrote: »

Before his diagnosis, the only thing Walt shows an interest in is money which is a crime everyone is guilty of.

Look it doesn't even matter that much, let's not get any panties in a twist here.

Mousewar

I was responding to someone who said that in the first episode Walt decides to cook meth prior to his diagnosis. I said I had just watched the episode and that that wasn't true. The only thing he did in the first episode prior to his diagnosis was express an interest in the amount of money that came from Hank's drug bust.
An awful lot more became apparent in later episodes but we were just talking about what we knew in episode 1.