New travel smartcard fails to make the Leap - Indo

lil5

New travel smartcard fails to make the Leap with commuters - Independent.ie, 3 July -
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-travel-smartcard-fails-to-make-the-leap-with-commuters-3155617.html

New travel smartcard fails to make the Leap with commuters


LESS than 10pc of commuters are using the Leap 'smartcard' six months after it was introduced at a cost to taxpayers of more than €55m.

Just 6pc of all 500,000 daily Dublin Bus journeys, 7pc of the 90,000 Luas trips and 10pc of the 100,000 work-day journeys on Irish Rail Dart and commuter services are made with the prepaid card, according to National Transport Authority (NTA ) figures obtained by the Irish Independent.

...

Three state transport companies, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, and the Rail Procurement Agency, responsible for Luas, are paying a total of €6m a year to bankroll the day-to-day operating costs of the scheme.


...

LXFlyer

It would be interesting to know the percentage of users who use other prepaid tickets.

They are not comparing like with like by not including those numbers.

They're also ignoring the fact that Oyster had a slow uptake when it launched as well - until cash fares were hiked up.

n97 mini

I think all the negative publicity didn't help. In fairness a lot of it was justified as for €55m a lot of functionality is missing at launch. There are a lot of things Leap can't do. Then word got out of how "internet" top-ups actually work etc.

I have a Leap card since they came out. Probably 25% of my journeys have been problematic, needing a phone call to sort out. I still mostly use the T90 on DB. Having to go in to O'Connell St to get a DB refund on Leap is taking the p1ss too and doesn't help. And it puts up the cost, which should really be viewed as cash vs leap+mistakes!

LXFlyer

They're also completely missing the point that LEAP is ideal only for shorter journeys and occasional users. Most regular middle to long distance users are already catered for by the extensive range of prepaid tickets.

When those start being loaded onto LEAP cards then we will have a far better idea of its usage.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

They're also completely missing the point that LEAP is ideal only for shorter journeys and occasional users.

Has it been mis-sold or under-sold? In order to manage expectations, it should have been stated from the outset that it's not a smart card, but an e-purse.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

Has it been mis-sold or under-sold? In order to manage expectations, it should have been stated from the outset that it's not a smart card, but an e-purse.

Irish Rail and Luas advertised their's as smart card, but worked on the same primary functionality as E-Purse. Isn't it based on the technology itself that it is a smart card, as opposed to the implementation which was stated is due to be phased in over time like similar projects?

Overall, that article seems quite biased against Leap from what I can see and just pushes negatives without any response from NTA to help their case much, other than references to Auto Topup and the Irish Rail TVM updates that are due. Which is a problem as people don't seem to accept or understand the limitations, particularly with how online topup actually works.

AlekSmart

Dravokivich wrote: »

Irish Rail and Luas advertised their's as smart card, but worked on the same primary functionality as E-Purse. Isn't it based on the technology itself that it is a smart card, as opposed to the implementation which was stated is due to be phased in over time like similar projects?

Overall, that article seems quite biased against Leap from what I can see and just pushes negatives without any response from NTA to help their case much, other than references to Auto Topup and the Irish Rail TVM updates that are due. Which is a problem as people don't seem to accept or understand the limitations, particularly with how online topup actually works.

I am not surprised at the stat's quoted in the article.
If anything I believe them to be underestimating the numbers.

What is not mentioned is the increasing negativity surrounding Leapcard and it's use.

Leapcards problems began 12 years ago, at Point 1 ,when some individual managed to sell the notion of allowing ALL the disparate operators,public & private,to maintain seperate Fare Regime's and Ticketing systems.

Incredibly,the ITIG even allowed potential participants to develop and introduce more Ticketing variants even after Leapcard was adopted as "The" new Standard.

So,it's hardly surprising when,after it's "soft" launch,we still see a notable lack of clamour for it's undoubted benefits.

Something is very seriously wrong with the NTA's marketing when,on a daily basis,I advise regular customers paying €2.65 that they could be saving 20c per journey,and recieve a polite "No Thank's,I'll stick with the cash....it's easier !!" in response.

Nobody want's to accept ownership of Leapcard....internally or externally.

Internally,we as Busdrivers still have no dedicated or direct path to report or discuss important Leapcard issues,such as the unacceptably long Time-Lag before the Leapcard screen displays on presentation of a valid card.

Unless somebody in Authority gets a grasp of the relatively simple measures required to "sell" Leapcard then it runs a real risk of becoming a very expensive Turkey indeed.

As a starting point I would dispense with whomever is in charge of Leapcard Marketing coincedental with massively increasing the VISIBILITY of Leapcard infrastructure.

There is also a serious requirement for a "Hard Launch" involving some verifiable major step-forward in useability,such as a Daily Cap or special Week-End Only caps,with this being SOLD to potential users in as High-Profile manner as can be bought.

Given that Dublin Bus is the major use-point for Leapcard,I see plenty of logic in targetting the Dublin Bus customer specifically for some "Freebies" or associated Marketing assistance...simply because the alternative,of doing nothing,is no longer viable.

I'd also suggest a few high-profile dismissals at the Senior Level of NTA/Leapcard,but I fully recognize that Ireland Teo. does not do accountability....except at the ground level...

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

Which is a problem as people don't seem to accept or understand the limitations, particularly with how online topup actually works.

It is understandable, most people understanding of technology is very limited and their only previous experience of online topup is mobile phones. So most people rightfully expected it to work in the same way.

Another issue that compounded the problem is that unlike London where most people use the underground as part of their journey and can thus easily receive the online topup, in Dublin the majority of people use Dublin Bus, whose ticket machines are currently incapable of online topup and who may never pass another top up machine.

The reality I think online topup shouldn't have been enabled at the start, instead they should have focused on the automatic topup facility and only added online topup at a later date, perhaps when DB's ticket machines are replaced by new ones capable of online topup.

I think this article isn't far off the mark, the reality is Leap has been disappointing so far. it could be so much better. To fix it:

- Most important thing is to fix the broken Dublin Bus ticketing situation. Switch DB to a high flat cash fare (e.g. €3) and make Leap tag-on and tag-off. Set the max tag-on fare at the cost of T90.

- Get leap card sales working from all LUAS and IR TVM's

- Get Leap card top-up, etc. working from all IR TVM's

- Get automated top-ups working.

- Sell and allow leap cards to be topped up, etc. at the ticket desks to Connoly, Hueston, Trara, Pearse and Busaras. Also at the CIE desk at Dublin airport and at the variety of toursit info centers around the city.

- Require all shops that currently sell DB tickets to also sell leap, the current network of shops just isn't extensive enough.

- Replace the nice large DB Tickets on sale here metal signs that you see on shops with similar leap signs. The current leap stickers on stores just isn't obvious enough.

- Move all DB/IR tickets, T90, monthly, yearly, etc. unto leap.

- Allow these tickets to be bought on the leap site and applied to your card when you next tag-on. This site should also handle the tax-saver element.

- Move all child, student fares to leap card with ID on it.

- Move the free travel pass to leap with ID on it.

- Replace DB's ticket machines with more modern devices able to do online topup.

- Redesign the leap website with a more modern, easier to use design.

- Centralise leap support and refunds with the LEAP office, you shouldn't need to have to go to IR/DB/ etc. to get your refund.

- Introduce integrated ticketing between different forums of travel, perhaps follow Amsterdams excellent per km set up.

Once all of the above is done, relaunch and heavily advertise leap.

Obviously some things are going to be easier to do then other. Still an awful lot to do with leap.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

It is understandable, most people understanding of technology is very limited and their only previous experience of online topup is mobile phones. So most people rightfully expected it to work in the same way.

- Most important thing is to fix the broken Dublin Bus ticketing situation. Switch DB to a high flat cash fare (e.g. €3) and make Leap tag-on and tag-off. Set the max tag-on fare at the cost of T90.

- Get leap card sales working from all LUAS and IR TVM's

- Get Leap card top-up, etc. working from all IR TVM's

- Get automated top-ups working.

- Sell and allow leap cards to be topped up, etc. at the ticket desks to Connoly, Hueston, Trara, Pearse and Busaras. Also at the CIE desk at Dublin airport and at the variety of toursit info centers around the city.

- Require all shops that currently sell DB tickets to also sell leap, the current network of shops just isn't extensive enough.

- Replace the nice large DB Tickets on sale here metal signs that you see on shops with similar leap signs. The current leap stickers on stores just isn't obvious enough.

- Move all DB/IR tickets, T90, monthly, yearly, etc. unto leap.

- Allow these tickets to be bought on the leap site and applied to your card when you next tag-on. This site should also handle the tax-saver element.

- Move all child, student fares to leap card with ID on it.

- Move the free travel pass to leap with ID on it.

- Replace DB's ticket machines with more modern devices able to do online topup.

- Redesign the leap website with a more modern, easier to use design.

- Centralise leap support and refunds with the LEAP office, you shouldn't need to have to go to IR/DB/ etc. to get your refund.

- Introduce integrated ticketing between different forums of travel, perhaps follow Amsterdams excellent per km set up.

Once all of the above is done, relaunch and heavily advertise leap.

Obviously some things are going to be easier to do then other. Still an awful lot to do with leap.

Having dismised the curent Leapcard management structure I now propose replacing them with "bk",as that post addresses ALL of the problems curently besetting Leapcard.

However,by far and away the most important issue is to get somebody to actually accept that there IS a problem......:eek:

zagmund

Joe User view here . . . I got an IE train smart card thing a good while back, and it works as expected. I put money on, I tag on, I tag off, money comes off. I can follow all of this.

When LEAP came out all I heard was that "this bit doesn't work, that bit doesn't work, this doesn't do what we expected, etc . . ." and it just wasn't worth my while to make the move from a working system which accounted for 90% of my transport needs to an almost working system that accounted for 100% of my needs.

I'm one of those customers who will pay the extra to Alek when I get on his bus rather than have a LEAP card. I also see it as saving dwell time as it sounds like cash is faster than LEAP.

z

AlekSmart

zagmund wrote: »

I'm one of those customers who will pay the extra to Alek when I get on his bus rather than have a LEAP card. I also see it as saving dwell time as it sounds like cash is faster than LEAP.

z

Zagmund,as it currently stands this can indeed be the case,even if multiple Leapcard transactions present.....THIS is,for me,the REAL resigning issue for anybody at the higher end of consumer IT projects...or am I mistaken ?

jinxremoving

I dont blame people for not taking on a leap card to travel. I have one, needed to top it up today. My local shop says their machine is broken & has been for the past month. Tried shop beside work and their machine is broken as well. Went to top up online and found it unworkable as i get the bus the majority of the time, nowhere near a luas stop or train station. how is this meant to be handier??

Mr Simpson

I have a leap card, but I never use it. Its slow to use, with many drivers still struggling to use it, especially the city centre fare. The only thing I really use it for is Nitelink.

Dravokivich

Alek, My post was primarily in response to criticism regarding whether or not that the LeapCard can be considered a smart card, with reference to 2 other smart cards currently out there that also function primarily as E-purse.

Bk, seems I lost the run of myself in the second part and was actually commenting on the comments section, just citing problem after problem. I made reference to what is a clear lack of effort by the NTA and it seems to be shown by those comments. As per my example, the thing is, it's quite easy to explain why it takes time for the card to receive the topup. Only NTA don't seem to have pushed out too much if any details on it, only citing "upto how long it can take."

dazberry

I got a LEAP card as a replacement when my Luas card gave up the ghost a couple of months ago. I'd given up on db after network direct, but with the Leap card am more inclined to make short journeys (still have a few travel 90s stashed away for longer or multi-bus journeys). Mostly get the Luas now.

My limited experience (17 journeys since start of May) is that a few drivers have been really on the ball, most seem to struggle slightly (pondering over the controls for a few seconds hence slower than cash), and a couple have just been completely lost. In that 17 trips I've been overcharged twice, the last time I also used the e-purse facility (herself was with me) so was hit on the double (2 x 2.40 instead of 2 x 1.70).

I do really find it really convenient, wouldn't have hardly set foot back on the bus but for it, just wish it was a tag on tag off system instead.

D.

Cionád

I got the Leap card too, only ever use it on buses for the Nitelink because the Travel90 are cheaper on the bus (I get two buses).

It's ok for the train.

Would have been great if they had some kind of zonal all-modes of transport system, with max fares per day/week/month etc. so you could combine short legs of different transport - With reasonable prices that can be availed of without having to go down the taxsaver route through an employer.

foggy_lad

lxflyer wrote: »

They're also completely missing the point that LEAP is ideal only for shorter journeys and occasional users. Most regular middle to long distance users are already catered for by the extensive range of prepaid tickets.

When those start being loaded onto LEAP cards then we will have a far better idea of its usage.

At this stage there is no evidence that this functionality will ever be available, with all the boffins working on this they should have had this from the start or very soon after which leads me to believe they have hit an iceberg and have found it impossible to implement.

dazberry wrote: »

I got a LEAP card as a replacement when my Luas card gave up the ghost a couple of months ago. I'd given up on db after network direct, but with the Leap card am more inclined to make short journeys (still have a few travel 90s stashed away for longer or multi-bus journeys). Mostly get the Luas now.

My limited experience (17 journeys since start of May) is that a few drivers have been really on the ball, most seem to struggle slightly (pondering over the controls for a few seconds hence slower than cash), and a couple have just been completely lost. In that 17 trips I've been overcharged twice, the last time I also used the e-purse facility (herself was with me) so was hit on the double (2 x 2.40 instead of 2 x 1.70).

I do really find it really convenient, wouldn't have hardly set foot back on the bus but for it, just wish it was a tag on tag off system instead.

D.

Dit you get your refund? and if so were you reimbursed for your journeys into Dublin Bus HQ to collect your refund?



Coming soon to a leap card near you, Another announcement of the irish rail top-ups at train stations and auto-topup which has been coming soon for the last 6 months! I suppose another 6 months is still a lot sooner than 12 years!

noelfirl

foggy_lad wrote: »

Coming soon to a leap card near you, Another announcement of the irish rail top-ups at train stations and auto-topup which has been coming soon for the last 6 months! I suppose another 6 months is still a lot sooner than 12 years!

Much as I know RUI's engineer isn't to everyones charm....

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=68398&postcount=88

Auto top up is under test and it works, even on Dublin Bus!

Irish Rail ticket machines are being upgraded for Leap, Docklands and Connolly have them and it looks like 1 extra station every second day will be added

foggy_lad

noelfirl wrote: »

Much as I know RUI's engineer isn't to everyones charm....

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=68398&postcount=88

So Irish rail top-ups were available in Connolly and Docklands initially so how many stations have been added since that announcement a couple of weeks ago?

Have all the thousands of people overcharged for dart and commuter journies by Irish Rail's 90 minute rule been refunded yet?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0424/1224315097112.html

When Ruigrok first made contact with the Leap card office, she was told it would look into the issue, but said it was a matter for Irish Rail. Customer services at Irish Rail passed her on to their “Smart Card” office, “who said it was nothing to do with them and passed me back to Leap card.

How could anyone trust this crowd of buck-passers

Polar101

I 'upgraded' my old rail 'smart card' to a Leap card since it didn't cost anything. I take two buses to work, so I've noticed I don't really have a lot of use for the card. When I take the train, I actually use the rail smart card instead since that one can be topped up at the station.

Leap is good for the occasional €1.25 trip on the bus.. if it has any money on it, can't really tell by looking at the bus driver's machine. But I don't think I've been overcharged or double charged, and the driver has never had any trouble with taking the fare off the card.

Dyr

Why would I want my yearly bus ticket, which now works the way an ID system should do, moved to LEAP which is your typical donkey of a solution that irish commitay's are so renowned for creating?

Just so LEAP can be successful?

noelfirl

foggy_lad wrote: »

So Irish rail top-ups were available in Connolly and Docklands initially so how many stations have been added since that announcement a couple of weeks ago?

Have all the thousands of people overcharged for dart and commuter journies by Irish Rail's 90 minute rule been refunded yet?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0424/1224315097112.html

How could anyone trust this crowd of buck-passers

Oh give it a rest with your poxy hyperbole. You made a statement about the Irish Rail top ups and auto top ups, I provided the information I was aware of. And that post by Gleeson was only five days ago.

Then you decide to link into the overcharging, Christ, I don't effing know or indeed dare to speculate about the overcharging, but I suspect one of these days we can look forward to a foggyesque "Leap card ate my baby" post in response to any statement that even dares to suggest that Leap card is evolving to get better as the NTA has said it will.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Why would I want my yearly bus ticket, which now works the way an ID system should do, moved to LEAP which is your typical donkey of a solution that irish commitay's are so renowned for creating?

Just so LEAP can be successful?

Well LEAP and the yearly ticket are actually the same thing and use the same technology.

By integrating the two you could have something like your yearly bus ticket on the card, plus the epurse. The yearly ticket would obviously work on the bus, while the epurse would be used the odd time you use the DART and luas.

Other examples would be you could have a dart monthly ticket, plus a T90 ticket, plus the epurse on the same card. You use the T90 when taking two buses and the epurse when taking jsut one bus. Obviously the monthly ticket dart ticket would be used on the dart.

Eventually you could also have the Dublin Bikes card integrated on it.

So the idea is rather then having to carry 5 or 6 cards around. You instead carry just one card.

bk

noelfirl wrote: »

Leap card is evolving to get better as the NTA has said it will.

Oh it is evolving but far too slowly.

Topping up at IR ticket machines was supposed to come last February. At the time I asked "February which year?" I wasn't too far off.

Really topping up at Irish Rail ticket machines should have been there from day one.

Also they shouldn't have launched with online topup enabled, instead it should have launched with the much more important and useful auto topup facility.

Some of the other issues like the ticket desks at the major rail stations not selling and topping up LEAP could be solved almost over night by simply having payzone terminal installed at these locations. Shouldn't take more then a week to do.

By now we really should have topping up at IR TVM's and auto topup working months ago and we should instead be talking about the integration of other ticket types into leap and the daily capping features, etc.

dazberry

foggy_lad wrote: »

Dit you get your refund? and if so were you reimbursed for your journeys into Dublin Bus HQ to collect your refund?

I didn't bother the first time, however the second happened last Sunday. I emailed them and was told to go to the customer service desk in the DB HQ with my card and a print out of my journeys... Might do that this weekend...

D.

foggy_lad

dazberry wrote: »

I didn't bother the first time, however the second happened last Sunday. I emailed them and was told to go to the customer service desk in the DB HQ with my card and a print out of my journeys... Might do that this weekend...

D.

Don't forget to seek reimbursment for the journey to and from their office which you otherwise would not have to make.

If someone frrom Ballyferriter or Dooagh or Ballyhillion had to go to the Dublin Bus Office for a refund would they also pay their costs?

Dyr

bk wrote: »

Well LEAP and the yearly ticket are actually the same thing and use the same technology.

By integrating the two you could have something like your yearly bus ticket on the card, plus the epurse. The yearly ticket would obviously work on the bus, while the epurse would be used the odd time you use the DART and luas.

Other examples would be you could have a dart monthly ticket, plus a T90 ticket, plus the epurse on the same card. You use the T90 when taking two buses and the epurse when taking jsut one bus. Obviously the monthly ticket dart ticket would be used on the dart.

Eventually you could also have the Dublin Bikes card integrated on it.

So the idea is rather then having to carry 5 or 6 cards around. You instead carry just one card.

Like most yearly ticket users I only need one card already and I have zero requirement for interaction with the driver with that card. Why would I want to change that on the chance that i might occasionally use another form of transport?

Hint of the classic irish transport solution's flowchart: come up with new product>there's no uptake> people dont want to use it>take away all other options so they have to use it >success!!

Rock of Gibraltar

The Leap Card is ridiculous, far from being some great solution to the myriad of possible tickets available to commuters it's just another layer of complication.
Other than it not being that useful to the majority of commuters the thing that really annoys me about it is the amateurish rollout, they've spent €55m and still somehow they've not thought it through.

I'd really like to see some leap card cash top-up machines (where you could also collect an online topup) at some of the busy bus stops, like Nassau St., Belfield etc. Rather than trying to find a shop.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Like most yearly ticket users I only need one card already and I have zero requirement for interaction with the driver with that card. Why would I want to change that on the chance that i might occasionally use another form of transport?

There would be no change in that, you would use the leap card with the yearly ticket on it in exactly the same way as you do today, with no interaction with the driver.

Really it shouldn't be any different for you if you aren't interested in the extra features, but the possibility of extra features are there for those who might make use of them.

This is no different to how Oyster works in London or Octopus works in Hong Kong.

As an aside, it is very concerning that people like Bambi above are developing such a bad image of leap card. Goes to show the importance of being reliable and getting it right from the start.

monument

Bambi wrote: »

Like most yearly ticket users I only need one card already and I have zero requirement for interaction with the driver with that card. Why would I want to change that on the chance that i might occasionally use another form of transport?

Hint of the classic irish transport solution's flowchart: come up with new product>there's no uptake> people dont want to use it>take away all other options so they have to use it >success!!

Errr... no. When the changeover happens, the plan is:

You will still only have one card and you will still have the same interaction with the driver.

And it was always the plan to switch all pre-paid cards over to Leap -- as is the same with smartcards elsewhere.

antoinolachtnai

I think there is a lot of rethinking to do. I think NTA should plan toward leap 2 to address the big issues, not just the small ones.

There was practically no marketing budget.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think there is a lot of rethinking to do. I think NTA should plan toward leap 2 to address the big issues, not just the small ones.

For me Leap 2 should be a major rethink of the entire ticketing system of DB, IR, Luas and BE in the Dublin region.

While I initially thought flat fare on DB was the best idea, I know admit that it is probably too much of a radical change and instead I think we should look at a system like Amsterdam.

- Set a single flat cash fare for DB (e.g. €3), this applies to all including children and students.

- Make DB tag-on and tag-off the same at DART and Luas.

- Set a base fare that applies to all public transport when you first get on it (e.g. 80 cents).

- You then charge per km traveled. The per km charge can differ by mode of transport, for example 5c by DB, 8c by DART, 9c by LUAS per km.
This charge is calculated when you tag-off, if you forget to tag-off you are charged the maximum fare [1].

- If you get on another bus or dart or luas within 60 minutes of tagging-off, you aren't charged the base fare again (the 80 cent), you only pay the relevant per km fare for the mode of transport you are on.

- Child and students can get special leap cards with id on them that entitles them to reduced rates.

I think this is the perfect system for Dublin and would solve all the issues.

- The public transport companies would be happy as they can set the per km fare at a level that they won't lose any money by switching to this system.

- Commuters and DB would be happy as it will reduce dwell times due to the elimination of cash. Most people would quickly move to leap 2.

- Commuters happy as it encourages switching between different forms of public transport. You don't get penalised for taking a bus followed by a dart as you currently do.

- Commuters very happy as it does away with the very confusing stage based fare system on DB that even the drivers don't understand.

- Commuters very happy as it makes it very easily to precisely estimate the cost of any journey using the journey planners.

- Private transport companies like Swords Express and Aircoach could even participate in this by setting their own per km fare, for example 80c + 4c per km would give Swords Express their €4 peak time ticket and 80C + 3c per km would give them their €3 off peak ticket (assuming the distance is 18km).

- As you can see above it can even handle different prices for on and off peak, weekends, night times, etc.

I really can't think of a single objection to this sort of system. Can anyone else?

It seems to offer the ultimate degree of flexibility.

Do this and in conjunction relaunch the leap card and now we really have the benefits of true integrated ticketing :cool:

carlmango11

bk wrote: »

I really can't think of a single objection to this sort of system. Can anyone else?

Too complex for the idiots they find to implement these systems. If it were to happen it would be probably be 5 years away and would be a mess when launched. Following the progress of Irish transport has made me so cynical. :pac:

AlekSmart

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I'd really like to see some leap card cash top-up machines (where you could also collect an online topup) at some of the busy bus stops, like Nassau St., Belfield etc. Rather than trying to find a shop.

The solution to the Top-Up problem is already in place.....The RTPI poles which are already hardwired into the system.

This particular solution is SO simple that most assuredly somebody needs to be relived of responsibility asap for not attending to it.

By far and away the MOST serious issue facing the NTA is whether or not it can rescue the Leapcard INTEGRATED TICKETING Principle from the mess they have created thus far.

Otherwise this warning will go unheeded...

Bambi: Hint of the classic irish transport solution's flowchart: come up with new product>there's no uptake> people dont want to use it>take away all other options so they have to use it >success!!

Bk is absolutely 100% correct here....

As an aside, it is very concerning that people like Bambi above are developing such a bad image of leap card. Goes to show the importance of being reliable and getting it right from the start.

Leapcard was always meant to be a gamechanger..the authorities had full power to address ALL of the issues before rolling out the product (particularly with the CIE group companies).

However,for some reason,I suspect simple lack of vision/interest,they chose to proceed in time honoured established Civil Service mode and allowed a bunch of career careful people to preside over what we now have to deal with.

It is a missed opportunity of massive proportions :mad:

To address this point...

Dazberry :My limited experience (17 journeys since start of May) is that a few drivers have been really on the ball, most seem to struggle slightly (pondering over the controls for a few seconds hence slower than cash), and a couple have just been completely lost.

The pondering Dazberry and other Leapcard users witness is not necessarily the Busdriver being delinquent,but instead a seriously long time-lag between a Leapcard being presented and the Leap Fare screen being enabled...this could also IMO explain how some Leapcard holders have reported being deducted CASH Fare amounts from their cards...

It shouldnt be happening and it's continuance requires a remedy,FAST.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

There would be no change in that, you would use the leap card with the yearly ticket on it in exactly the same way as you do today, with no interaction with the driver.

And in order to swipe on with my yearly ticket I would'nt queeing up behind charlie change, tommy tourist and Liam leap all of whom want to interact with danny driver

bk

Bambi wrote: »

And in order to swipe on with my yearly ticket I would'nt queeing up behind charlie change, tommy tourist and Liam leap all of whom want to interact with danny driver

No, you just use the right hand side validator (the one by the door), the same as you do today.

Again absolutely no change from what you do today.

antoinolachtnai

I would get rid of weekly, monthly and yearly tickets. Just have one types stem for paying for journeys. If you do more than a certain distance per year, you might get a rebate. I would also get rid of the taxsaver scheme, in the interests of fairness and to reduce admin overhead.

It is all about simplifying the whole thing.

Dyr

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would get rid of weekly, monthly and yearly tickets. Just have one types stem for paying for journeys. If you do more than a certain distance per year, you might get a rebate. I would also get rid of the taxsaver scheme, in the interests of fairness and to reduce admin overhead.

It is all about simplifying the whole thing.

Awesome

classic irish transport solution's flowchart: come up with new product>there's no uptake> people dont want to use it>take away all other options so they have to use it >success!!

antoinolachtnai

Well, you'd have to have a comprehensive and equitable solution like bk's.

You couldn't replace the hundreds of types of tickets currently available with the current leap card.

pawrick

I have 3 leap cards but seldom use any of them - main reason is because I think it's over priced for short journeys on the luas within the city centre.

bk

pawrick wrote: »

I have 3 leap cards but seldom use any of them - main reason is because I think it's over priced for short journeys on the luas within the city centre.

Leap on Luas is cheaper then paying by cash, even if you buy a return ticket. Luas is only cheaper if you get a monthly, yearly, etc. ticket.

RustyNut

As the owner of a leap card I assumed I could top up on line and so I can BUT having just tried now it seems I have to collect my top up somewhere. WTF is that about, sorta makes the online bit useless.
So as I sit here now I have a leap card in my wallet with not enough credit for a bus into town and even if I do top up now I still have to have change for the bus just to collect my top up.
I hope I have this wrong and I just need to learn how to do it properly because my 12 year old would not design a system like that.

bk

RustyNut wrote: »

As the owner of a leap card I assumed I could top up on line and so I can BUT having just tried now it seems I have to collect my top up somewhere. WTF is that about, sorta makes the online bit useless.
So as I sit here now I have a leap card in my wallet with not enough credit for a bus into town and even if I do top up now I still have to have change for the bus just to collect my top up.
I hope I have this wrong and I just need to learn how to do it properly because my 12 year old would not design a system like that.

No that is correct, that is how it works.

Remember the credit is actually stored on the card and the card has no connection to the internet. So the top-up will only be applied to the card when you collect the credit in a shop or at a DART barrier or LUAS TVM.

I know, yes it is a very stupid system and not really well suited to the way things work in Dublin.

goingnowhere

bk wrote: »

I know, yes it is a very stupid system and not really well suited to the way things work in Dublin.

But thats how it works EVERYWHERE, the top up happens without any user interaction, just tag on or off as normal and if a top up is pending it happens.

The problems are principally down to policy decisions not the technology, which is very much an issue specific to Dublin

RustyNut

Just as a matter of intrest if I hop on the bus in the morning with no wallet and a leap card without enough credit for the journey, can the driver put a debit on the card that is taken off when I manage to collect my topup or will I just be left stranded ?

foggy_lad

There is a €5 reserve on the card for one journey but if you have already used that then You will be left stranded.

pawrick

bk wrote: »

Leap on Luas is cheaper then paying by cash, even if you buy a return ticket. Luas is only cheaper if you get a monthly, yearly, etc. ticket.

Yes it's cheaper then paying cash, however I'm talking versus walking short distances within the city centre. More people I think would use it on their lunch breaks etc. if it was cheaper for short hop trips - IFSC to Jervis Street as an example which is two zones as it stands unless you get on at bus aras/connolly.

noelfirl

RustyNut wrote: »

Just as a matter of intrest if I hop on the bus in the morning with no wallet and a leap card without enough credit for the journey, can the driver put a debit on the card that is taken off when I manage to collect my topup or will I just be left stranded ?

foggy_lad wrote: »

You will be left stranded.

No, you wont. The card has a €5 emergency credit. I can't remember whether its a positive balance of €0.05 or €0.10 you need to have on it, but if you have that you will be able to use it at that stage, but then you will need to top it up before you can use it again.

EDIT: having just checked, Victor on here has said if you have a balance of €0.01 you will be able to dip into the emergency credit to get on the bus, with the exception of Airlink where there has to be a €1 balance.

RustyNut

noelfirl wrote: »

No, you wont. The card has a €5 emergency credit. I can't remember whether its a positive balance of €0.05 or €0.10 you need to have on it, but if you have that you will be able to use it at that stage, but then you will need to top it up before you can use it again.

EDIT: having just checked, Victor on here has said if you have a balance of €0.01 you will be able to dip into the emergency credit to get on the bus, with the exception of Airlink where there has to be a €1 balance.

That makes sense. I'll pull my horns in so :pac:

bk

goingnowhere wrote: »

But thats how it works EVERYWHERE, the top up happens without any user interaction, just tag on or off as normal and if a top up is pending it happens.

The problems are principally down to policy decisions not the technology, which is very much an issue specific to Dublin

Yes and no. In London for instance, top-up only happens at the specific London underground station you specify, it doesn't work on London Bus.

But in London that isn't a big issue as London Underground is the primary means of public transport and almost everyone passes through a London underground station at some part of their journey, even if they do use the bus.

In Dublin however that isn't the case, here Dublin Bus is the primary means of transport and online top-up is basically only useful to people who use the Dart, which is a minority of people. For DB users online top-up is a complete waste of time.

It is partly a technology issue as Dublin Bus ticket machines don't have enough memory to allow online top-up to work. However more modern bus ticket machines which have more memory can do online top-up. For instance the new Android powered, touch screen ticket machines being trialled by the NTA can do it.

However I agree it is mostly a policy issue. The NTA/Leap people should have recognised the differences between Dublin and London and recongnised that online top-up wouldn't work well in Dublin and would just confuse people.

They should have not rolled out online top-up, instead focused on rolling out the much more useful automatic top-up feature from day one. Online top-up should only have been introduced once DB eventually upgrade their ticket machines, even if that takes a few years.

Now I think the NTA/Leap should launch automatic top-up as soon as possible, demphasise online top-up on the web site (leave it there but hide it away) and instead heavily promote automatic top-up.

pawrick wrote: »

Yes it's cheaper then paying cash, however I'm talking versus walking short distances within the city centre. More people I think would use it on their lunch breaks etc. if it was cheaper for short hop trips - IFSC to Jervis Street as an example which is two zones as it stands unless you get on at bus aras/connolly.

That is on purpose, they don't want people taking the LUAS for walking distances. If it is a short walk then you are supposed to walk.

They don't want the Luas being filled by people only going a short distance, meaning people going long distances and who have no other choice can't get on.

The fare structure of the Luas is thus designed to punish people traveling just short distances.

This is pretty much true of public transport the world over.

Anyway it is better for your health to walk or cycle.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

No that is correct, that is how it works.

Remember the credit is actually stored on the card and the card has no connection to the internet. So the top-up will only be applied to the card when you collect the credit in a shop or at a DART barrier or LUAS TVM.

I know, yes it is a very stupid system and not really well suited to the way things work in Dublin.

Online topup needs to be collected at a validator doesn't it? You can topup yourself at the TVMs, but for online, it needs to be at a validator.