importing goods from china?

aaron_mcg

hi,

im just about to start my own business and ive been talking to alot of suppliers in china for prices on my goods that i want delivered

i just wanted to ask has anyone got experience on getting goods delivered from china via sea frieght and what will i expect at the port i.e cost wise,

also would it be best to get my own ship rather than getting the supplier to organise it..any extra help on this issue will be very much appreciated

dudara

Moved to Entrepreneurial & Business Management

dudara

hytrogen

aaron_mcg wrote: »

...
also would it be best to get my own ship rather than getting the supplier to organise it..any extra help on this issue will be very much appreciated

Your own ship?? What are ya moving, a few ex-soviet tank divisions?? :-P

Franticfrank

Are you starting a shipping business? Is so, you will more than likely need your own ship.

Swampy

Buy your goods FOB and organise an Irish freight company to do the rest.

aaron_mcg

no i dont mean that i mean to organise a shipping company from ireland to transfer my goods rather than getting one from china to do it, i just want to know what the costs are at dublin port...do they charge by the weight of the goods and what other costs are involved with getting your goods clearence..etc etc

Mr Bump

As already quoted purchase your goods FOB, then get a freight forwarder to look after the rest, i know many, if you PM me i will give you names and numbers to call,

aaron_mcg wrote: »

hi,

im just about to start my own business and ive been talking to alot of suppliers in china for prices on my goods that i want delivered

i just wanted to ask has anyone got experience on getting goods delivered from china via sea frieght and what will i expect at the port i.e cost wise,

also would it be best to get my own ship rather than getting the supplier to organise it..any extra help on this issue will be very much appreciated

Dr.Zeus

Couple of things I've experienced with China imports
1) Swampy is correct, FOB is way to go. But be sure to get ALL costs from Irish forwarder, there are loads of additions (bunker adjustment charge, surcharge etc etc). Expect to pay around €3.5k for a 40' container
2) Check your customs charges and duty BEFORE you import. Get a binding tarif agreement if possible. The forwarder will require a cheque/draft from you when goods are at port and this will include the duty - not nice to be left with a huge duty bill.
3) Depends on what Chinese company you are dealing with but they can be notoriously lax with paperwork and using correct tarif codes.
4) Be sure that your forwarder includes Insurance costs, unless you have your own cover.

fasttalkerchat

Don't import electricals. Allow for delays and find out what if the goods are damaged in transit. Allow for additional costs of 25%.

gravity10

Hey guys, sorry to hi-jack!

I'm looking at doing the same thing but for relatively small quantities - one to ten boxes or so initially, then hopefully expanding. Does anybody have any experience of importing smaller loads like this who could enlighten some of the pitfalls?

Thanks a million!

Mr Bump

Drop me a PM and i will point you to the right people,

Reagrds
Mr Bump

gravity10 wrote: »

Hey guys, sorry to hi-jack!

I'm looking at doing the same thing but for relatively small quantities - one to ten boxes or so initially, then hopefully expanding. Does anybody have any experience of importing smaller loads like this who could enlighten some of the pitfalls?

Thanks a million!

lisa7084

i was thinking of importing shoes from china around 21 pairs the total cost for shipping and shoes is 350.00 euro, the suppiler says he will write the value as under 100 dollers. Does any1 have any idea of how much this package will cost me when it gets into ireland?

fasttalkerchat

lisa7084 wrote: »

i was thinking of importing shoes from china around 21 pairs the total cost for shipping and shoes is 350.00 euro, the suppiler says he will write the value as under 100 dollers. Does any1 have any idea of how much this package will cost me when it gets into ireland?

€150 is the limit for not paying duty. You will only pay VAT. However this is only if the revenue accept that they're for personal use, unlikely if they're all the same!

lisa7084

Thank you for your reply, the vat rate is 23% prob not worth the risk of bringing in the shoes, on how much ill have to pay when they get here, i wont be making a good profit.

RUDOLF289

lisa7084 wrote: »

Thank you for your reply, the vat rate is 23% prob not worth the risk of bringing in the shoes, on how much ill have to pay when they get here, i wont be making a good profit.

If you are a VAT registered business the VAT you pay on imports is a deductible input, i.e. you can claim it back in your VAT return.

However, duty on shoes can be as high as 14% and that can not be claimed back. Bear in mind that Customs may ask you to show proof of how much your paid for the shoes. If that happens you will be liable for the duty and VAT.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

RUDOLF289

Dr.Zeus wrote: »

Couple of things I've experienced with China imports
1) Swampy is correct, FOB is way to go. But be sure to get ALL costs from Irish forwarder, there are loads of additions (bunker adjustment charge, surcharge etc etc). Expect to pay around €3.5k for a 40' container
2) Check your customs charges and duty BEFORE you import. Get a binding tarif agreement if possible. The forwarder will require a cheque/draft from you when goods are at port and this will include the duty - not nice to be left with a huge duty bill.
3) Depends on what Chinese company you are dealing with but they can be notoriously lax with paperwork and using correct tarif codes.
4) Be sure that your forwarder includes Insurance costs, unless you have your own cover.

Excellent advise. Just to reiterate, do not buy on a CIF/Delivered basis in China when the goods are shipped by seafreight. If you search on boards.ie : China Import Service Fee, you will see a number of examples of people who were caught with scandalous high charges on arrival in Ireland.

Use an Irish Freight Forwarder and make sure you get a detailed quote that includes all charges. Feel free to PM if you need assistance

Cheers,
Rudolf289

soirish

@aaron_mcg
Have massive experience living in China. There are plenty of things that could go wrong as Chinese always try to exploit laowai people. Send me a PM and we can discuss further and I can share some useful Chinese contacts as well.

ClaireF.

Hello, I work in Freight Forwarding.
PM me all your details and I will work on your rate requests, general shipping queries.

Thanks,
Claire

NJOR

I disagree with the recommendation to use FOB then a foreign freight forwarder. Chinese shippers are just as competitive (of course there are rip off merchants, just like there are outside China) . The biggest costs are likely to arise when the shipment arrives in Dublin.

<snip> Mod note: no shilling..

5 years ago 85% of IP cases going through the courts in China were foreign company suing local chinese company. Now 90% of cases are chinese company suing chinese company. Think about it... China is maturing, and they are quickly realising that when they provide a crappy service they'll be out of business real soon.

RUDOLF289

NJOR wrote: »

I disagree with the recommendation to use FOB then a foreign freight forwarder. Chinese shippers are just as competitive (of course there are rip off merchants, just like there are outside China) . The biggest costs are likely to arise when the shipment arrives in Dublin.

<snip> Mod note: no shilling..

5 years ago 85% of IP cases going through the courts in China were foreign company suing local chinese company. Now 90% of cases are chinese company suing chinese company. Think about it... China is maturing, and they are quickly realising that when they provide a crappy service they'll be out of business real soon.

Hello NJOR,

can I respectfully suggest that you do a search for the term : China Import Service Fee.

If you do, you will see the continuous stream of Irish consignees being taken to the cleaners.

The most extreme case I have been involved in was for a shipment of 21.5 cubic meters from Guangzhou.

The chinese supplier was quoted a cost of Us$ 750 from Guangzhou to Dublin and offered that to the consignee, who took it. On arrival in Dublin the client was presented with a bill of € 2200 (yes you read it right : Two Thousand Two Hundred Euro's). That was on top of the Us$ 750 paid by the shipper in China !

The cost for a 20' container at that time was less than Us$ 2000.00

The problem is, once the shipment is tendered in China on a CIF basis, the forwarder in China knows he has the Irish consignee on the hook and can litterally demand ANY money through his Irish agent BEFORE the shipment will be released. On top of that the Irish agent adds his considerable fees to it.

It is a scam. I always advise the Irish client, when they have been made an offer that simply is too good to be true, to ask his supplier to get the details of the agent in Dublin prior to the shipment leaving the factory. That way the client can make inquiries on this side as to the costs that will be levied on arrival.

The outcome of that inquiry is either one of two scenario's.

1) The agent in Ireland advises most of the charges but NOT the China Import Service Fee. When pressed on the issue the answer invariably is that the CISF will only be available AFTER the shipment has left China ......
2) The charges are so ridiculously high that ANY forwarder in Ireland will beat that quote by a country mile. In fact my experience strongly suggests that the charges quoted here in Ireland are higher than the commercially applicable rate from China to Ireland (and then some)

So, as you quite rightly state the biggest cost is likely to arise on arrival in Dublin. However, at that stage, the goods have been paid for, the Chinese Forwarder and his Irish agent know that you are committed and go to town on you. The Irish consignee simply has no choice at that stage but to pay up or abandon the shipment (that he has already paid for)

Now, unless you can back up your argument with hard, verifiable facts, I would urge you to be very, very careful to issue advice of the tenure above.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

NJOR

Fair enough. That's your experience.

We use our own local Chinese shippers from China to Ireland, Italy, UK and never ever had a problem. The comments on this thread are painting all Chinese FFs with the same brush.

The issue boils down to trust and local relationships. Some of the biggest unjustified costs in the whole shipment process from China happen when the consignment reaches Port of Dublin and needs to be delivered to a customer somewhere in Ireland.

I don't really need to back up anything with hard facts.

RUDOLF289

NJOR,

sorry this is not my experience, it is the experience of a significant number of Irish clients that have been caught out, as evidenced by the high number of posts in this forum to that effect.

The costs that arise in Dublin are significantly driven by the Chinese Freight Forwarder in the form of spurious charges such as the infamous CISF and BAF's and Terminal handling cost (levied by the Irish forwarder but partly credited to the chinese forwarder).

I am sure that your experience is genuine and that you have a good relationship with your chinese freight forwarder. You obviously are an experienced trader and have done your homework.

Maybe, it would be an idea to look for a second opinion on what you are currently doing and test if everything is costed at the most economical level. Feel free to PM me if you would like to take that further.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

NJOR

Thanks Rudolf... Actually I have been doing business with China for over two decades, and run a Ireland China business services consultancy practice, and spend about 9 months a year based in our China office.

I would say that for first time importers, search for an experienced Irish firm focused on China sourcing and importing. The least they can do is point you in the direction of the FF they use for shipping (which could be an Irish or Chinese shipper). Word of mouth / referrals are as important a means of conducting business in China and they are here.

Cheers

Wedding biatch

Hi I am starting up. A wedding favours business. Just socks bubbles mint tins t shirts etc will I have to pay customs for those kind of items

RUDOLF289

NJOR wrote: »

Thanks Rudolf... Actually I have been doing business with China for over two decades, and run a Ireland China business services consultancy practice, and spend about 9 months a year based in our China office.

I would say that for first time importers, search for an experienced Irish firm focused on China sourcing and importing. The least they can do is point you in the direction of the FF they use for shipping (which could be an Irish or Chinese shipper). Word of mouth / referrals are as important a means of conducting business in China and they are here.

Cheers

Hello NJOR,

I think there is common ground here. I get asked questions regularly about sourcing products in China. PM me your details and would keep them to hand. Eventhough China is getting easier to do business with, there are still many pitfalls for people looking at this for the first time.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

RUDOLF289

Wedding biatch wrote: »

Hi I am starting up. A wedding favours business. Just socks bubbles mint tins t shirts etc will I have to pay customs for those kind of items

Hello Wedding Biatch,

best of luck with your new venture.

In principle, yes you will have to pay customs for items that are imported from outside the EU. There will be duty and VAT levied.

If you source products from other EU member states, and provided that you are VAT registered, you will get a VAT zero rated invoice from your supplier(s). You then account for the transaction in your VAT return i.e. you add a VAT liability for the intra eu acquisition, but you claim this back in the same return as you are entitled to claim VAT back on purchases for your business.

Duty would not apply on intra EU shipments

Regards,
Rudolf289

mongolianyurt

Hi all, I'm like some of the other people above in this thread who are only buying small time from outside the EU - couple of box loads etc. I'm only starting out and haven't done any of the 'legal' stuff like registering as sole trader and for income tax etc.

Before I buy and get goods shipped I want to do the legal stuff as I don't want to be caught out when goods land in Ireland but what is needed when goods arrive in Ireland? I understand that the courier company will look after payments of customs duty/VAT etc but my questions are:

1. What do the guys at Dublin port/courier company need off me - i.e will they need some sort of proof that I'm registered as a sole trader or registered for income tax?
2. Also, If I'm buying from outside the EU do I need to register for VAT? [my business will be quite small and will not reach the threshold mark]

If anyone could answer these it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Peterdalkey

Q1: they just want the money, nothing else.
Q2: No need to be VAT registered as long as you remain under the threshold.


cheers

Peter

rainbowdash

As regards C&F V FOB obviously its only a 1st timer that would get caught out, unless he is stupid and fools himself again.

Suppose a company imports 2 containers a month and uses the same freight forwarder in China and never gets burnt (the FF in China of course must have an associated office or agent in Dublin anyway)

What is the difference in price between sending C&F with a reputable forwarder in China and sending goods FOB using the China forwarders Dublin associate.

My point being, is there any real saving to be achieved by using a reputable C&F agent in China V using a Dublin based company and doing it FOB?

My understanding is the seafreight bit is fixed regardless of which agent you use and most of the charges at Dublin are fixed anyway, regardless of who you use?

mongolianyurt

Hi thanks Peter for that. One more hurdle out of the way.

One more question if you or anyone else could help.
1. I will be charged VAT @ 23% for the goods once they arrive in Ireland I presume...so when I'm selling my goods online I just add on this percentage to recoup the cost and I'm square with the government so to speak!?
After that its just give them tax on income etc.

Sorry if this is so obvious to everyone but I didn't do business in school!!

P.S. If anyone could recommend a good website or book that goes through the basics of setting up and selling online from an Irish point of view that would be great!
Thanks.

Peterdalkey

You will be charged Duty on the landed coast of the goods and then VAT on the total including delivery and Duty @23% to give you your nett product cost. then add your profit.

see this thread for more detail http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055862554


cheers

Peter

Compton

Hi,

Can anyone recommend the best forwarder? Im getting 40 cartons and have a FOB price, will need an Irish forwarder to do the rest

Thanks

Peterdalkey

Compton wrote: »

Hi,

Can anyone recommend the best forwarder? Im getting 40 cartons and have a FOB price, will need an Irish forwarder to do the rest

Thanks

contact RUDOLF289 very active on this forum on all matters shipping/duty/import VAT etc. I am sure he can help, he is in that business area.

cheers

Peter

mongolianyurt

Thanks Peter for that

Compton

Peterdalkey wrote: »

contact RUDOLF289 very active on this forum on all matters shipping/duty/import VAT etc. I am sure he can help, he is in that business area.

cheers

Peter

I have, he hasn't replied yet to a message sent a few days ago

Peterdalkey

Compton/mongolianyurt

He has not been online here since 25/11, hence no response. I would suggest that you start a new thread headed something like " Can anyone recommend an Irish based freight/clearance company to handle shipping goods from China"!


Cheers

Peter

RUDOLF289

rainbowdash wrote: »

As regards C&F V FOB obviously its only a 1st timer that would get caught out, unless he is stupid and fools himself again.

Suppose a company imports 2 containers a month and uses the same freight forwarder in China and never gets burnt (the FF in China of course must have an associated office or agent in Dublin anyway)

What is the difference in price between sending C&F with a reputable forwarder in China and sending goods FOB using the China forwarders Dublin associate.

My point being, is there any real saving to be achieved by using a reputable C&F agent in China V using a Dublin based company and doing it FOB?

My understanding is the seafreight bit is fixed regardless of which agent you use and most of the charges at Dublin are fixed anyway, regardless of who you use?

Hello Rainbowdash,

Interesting point you make there.

In theory, the forwarders in China are likely to get earlier notice of new (lower) rates. The market being extremely competitive in China, means that savings are being passed on instantly.

However, if you are dealing with a reputable organisation in Ireland, there may be several advantages that a Chinese forwarder may not be able to offer.

For instance, if you import from outside the EU, apart from the (likely) duty, you are also liable to pay the VAT @23% upfront. Granted, the VAT is a deductible input in your VAT return, so you can claim it back. However, more and more Irish based forwarders offer the option of eliminating the VAT outlay by clearing the containers at the point of transhipment (e.g. Rotterdam / Antwerp). This assists with the importers cash flow as the liability for the import VAT is transferred to his periodic VAT return. This avoids the cash outlay (and then wait till the next VAT return to claim it back).

To the best of my knowledge, Chinese Freight Forwarders would not be familiar with this process (nor their Irish counter parts) so, therefore it may be an advantage to deal with an Irish forwarder on the basis of FOB Chinese port.

I am sure there may be other advantages, but that is one that comes immediately to mind.

Cheers,
Rudolf289

Jarren

Never imported via sea before but a week ago I received a very tempting quote on the following .

4.33 cubic meters (m³) – 1540 kgs 100USD


I requested a breakdown of the charges/fees and still haven't received the reply from the Chinese shipping agent on that subject.

The common sense would tell me that it should cost much more to have the goods delivered.

When I think about it handling/agency/custom clearance/delivery should be three times the amount(guessing that one) I was quoted initially by the Chinese shipping sgent.

Don't mind paying more knowing that every angle of the sea shipping was covered.

After reading a bit online about the topic discussed I'd take my chances with local sea freight companies.

My2cents

wenxue

find some qualified supplier is most important,too many crooks.....

NJOR

wenxue wrote: »

find some qualified supplier is most important,too many crooks.....

Totally agree with Wenxue. Don't learn the hard way, which invariably ends in tears if not properly researched

I would be happy to advise. I have been working with accuratelimited who've been dealing with China since 1988. their dot.com website has the same name.

Happy China Trading in 2013!

baz-

hi
im in the process of getting a shipment in from india
and every thing is priced cif,so from what I take from this thread is go fob?
am I right,i read it that their a lot of hippen costs
im thinking of a pallet with maybe 2000-3000 euros worth on the pallet maybe 500kg roughly
so anybody able to give me a rough cif cost?
can I collect the pallet myself in Dublin myself with jeep and trailer?
sorry for all the random questions,just new to this importing outside eu,
thanks in advance for the help,
regards barry

RUDOLF289

baz- wrote: »

hi
im in the process of getting a shipment in from india
and every thing is priced cif,so from what I take from this thread is go fob?
am I right,i read it that their a lot of hippen costs
im thinking of a pallet with maybe 2000-3000 euros worth on the pallet maybe 500kg roughly
so anybody able to give me a rough cif cost?
can I collect the pallet myself in Dublin myself with jeep and trailer?
sorry for all the random questions,just new to this importing outside eu,
thanks in advance for the help,
regards barry

Hello Barry,

My recommendation is to ask your supplier the following questions ;

1. In case he insists on CIF, ask him to confirm who the receiving agent in Ireland will be so you can contact them and obtain the charges they will levy. That is very important in order to avoid unexpected costs / surprises .....
2. I would also suggest to ask him for an Free On Board price (FOB).
3. Ask your supplier to confirm the weight and dimensions of the item(s) you intend to ship from Ireland.

Feel free to send me a PM with the following information so we can review costs for you ;

A. Port of Shipment in India
B. Commodity
C. Value
D. Weights and dimensions of the item(s)
E. Place of delivery in Ireland

Based on the above we can offer you a second opinion and assist you in bringing in your product(s) in the most cost effective manner

Cheers,
Rudolf289

collegeme

RUDOLF289 wrote: »

Hello Barry,

My recommendation is to ask your supplier the following questions ;

1. In case he insists on CIF, ask him to confirm who the receiving agent in Ireland will be so you can contact them and obtain the charges they will levy. That is very important in order to avoid unexpected costs / surprises .....
2. I would also suggest to ask him for an Free On Board price (FOB).
3. Ask your supplier to confirm the weight and dimensions of the item(s) you intend to ship from Ireland.

Feel free to send me a PM with the following information so we can review costs for you ;

A. Port of Shipment in India
B. Commodity
C. Value
D. Weights and dimensions of the item(s)
E. Place of delivery in Ireland

Based on the above we can offer you a second opinion and assist you in bringing in your product(s) in the most cost effective manner

Cheers,
Rudolf289

So, Can I take from this that the CISV is a made up fee? And that you have absolutely no way of calculating it in advance?

RUDOLF289

collegeme wrote: »

So, Can I take from this that the CISV is a made up fee? And that you have absolutely no way of calculating it in advance?

That's right. Most of the time the answer you will get from the Chinese supplier is that "we do not know at this stage who the agent in Ireland (or the UK or Europe!) will be" or they will tell you "all you have to do is clear the shipment and pick it up from the port". If you do get a contact on this side of the world their (very) likely answer will be ; "These are our charges but we have to wait untill the shipment has left before we are being told how much to collect on behalf of the Chinese forwarder"

Unfortunately leaving the shipping arrangements to your Chinese supplier tends to walk you into a trap and creates a lot of very high (unexpected) costs when the goods arrive here in Ireland. If you deal with an Irish based forwarder they can tell you in advance what the charges are, leaving no room for surprises. Bear in mind. no goods leave China unless they are paid for, so on arrival you have a choice. Either swallow the charges or abandon the goods. Its a game that the Chinese play very well, especially with people who buy in China for the first time.

Cheers,
Rudolf289