Where is Heaven? (Dont lock this one)

Sin City

Just wondering where exactly heaven is?

People have always said its up, but of course we all know that there are no angels on the clouds (otherwise there may be some stuck to the noses of planes flying through them )

Seriously though most cultures have always pointed skywards, and the bible even once stated the God feared man making to the heavens, (Tower of Bable)
yet he doesnt mind us flying or building rockets to the moon.

So my question is , where abouts is heaven?


This is a serious thread, mods please dont lock it, delete it etc

prinz

Sin City wrote: »

So my question is , where abouts is heaven?

Just to the left of the chocolate teapot.

homer911

Putting the Atheist responses to one side - You are thinking 4-dimensionally

God has existed for ever, before our concept of time began, and before the universe was created by him

Therefore, God exists outside of Time and Space, therefore Heaven exists outside of Time and Space

santing

homer911 wrote: »

Putting the Atheist responses to one side - You are thinking 4-dimensionally

God has existed for ever, before our concept of time began, and before the universe was created by him

Therefore, God exists outside of Time and Space, therefore Heaven exists outside of Time and Space

That is one meaning for the word heaven - and probably the meaning the OP is looking for. It is not part of this creation and is very close to us, but in another dimension. Apart from this use of the word Heaven (in John 14 "the House of my Father") in the original language the word heaven is mainly plural, with the first heaven being the sky above the earth, the second the universe - so these are part of creation. The third heaven is probably the place where the angels dwell, so also part of the creation, but not part of our known universe - indeed think 4 (or multi dimensional). This heaven is also tainted by sin (but not the house of the father) and will be renewed.

totus tuus

As a kid, I learned that Heaven can be a state of perfect happiness, where the blessed see, and enjoy God forever.

Ken bryan

Heaven is around us . We can’t see it or experience it until we morph from caterpillar state. I.e. human to our spiritual state.
Like the caterpillar we are restricted. It is only one we go through the Change at death do we experience the next level of freedom,

As humans we are restriced to what we see .
With our sences once we die these restrictions are removed .

Doc Farrell

Sin City wrote: »

Just wondering where exactly heaven is?

People have always said its up, but of course we all know that there are no angels on the clouds (otherwise there may be some stuck to the noses of planes flying through them )

Seriously though most cultures have always pointed skywards, and the bible even once stated the God feared man making to the heavens, (Tower of Bable)
yet he doesnt mind us flying or building rockets to the moon.

So my question is , where abouts is heaven?


This is a serious thread, mods please dont lock it, delete it etc

I recommend that if you are genuinely interested in the subject that you do further real study.
Nowhere in Christianity, as far as I know, is Heaven given a geographic location.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

Best for you to read some commentaries on the tower of Babel. I don't see where it says that God was afraid. The story is an allegory concerning the arrogance of men and women. Pride in technology, in learning, in theology, in science, in communication. In pride or hubris, lies are own downfall. It's a very common theme in all human stories, from Sophocles to Shakespeare to Hannibal Lecter.
Christ ascending into Heaven is visually meaningful to us but only a child or a fundamentalist would think of Him remaining above or beyond a specific geographic or spatial location.
Heaven is compassion in action. And free cigars.

Onesimus

I agree with Doc there. Trying to reach heaven for those who built that tower was a way of saying that they thought they could become like God himself.

Humanity still thinks they can reach the skies and be like God and usurp his position.

But yeah sure heaven is up that way beyond the clouds and time and space.

Gumbi

How do you know that God is outside time and space?

And how can you possibly postulate such a thing in the first place?

Helix

Gumbi wrote: »

How do you know that God is outside time and space?

And how can you possibly postulate such a thing?

because it's the easiest answer

where is heaven? it's somewhere we just happen never to be able to observe, measure or disprove. convenient

kumate_champ07

Ken bryan wrote: »

Heaven is around us . We can’t see it or experience it until we morph from caterpillar state. I.e. human to our spiritual state. Like the caterpillar we are restricted. It is only one we go through the Change at death do we experience the next level of freedom,

As humans we are restriced to what we see .
With our sences once we die these restrictions are removed .

the world doesnt change for a caterpillar, it gains the ability to fly but still has to deal with wind,water,cold,injuries,predators.

kumate_champ07

if heaven is outside time and space how do we continue our favourite hobbies/passtimes there when they require time and space to function?
wouldnt eternal happiness negate itself after a few thousand years? human liftime would be aprox 90yrs, lets say 45 years of that was suffering, after thousands of years of passing there will be no memory of what sadness was. I cant remember what it was like to be taken care of while in the womb, I had no worries, I only know of this 'butterfly existence' Im living now

you cant have joy without pain

kumate_champ07

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I recommend that if you are genuinely interested in the subject that you do further real study.
Nowhere in Christianity, as far as I know, is Heaven given a geographic location.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

Best for you to read some commentaries on the tower of Babel. I don't see where it says that God was afraid. The story is an allegory concerning the arrogance of men and women. Pride in technology, in learning, in theology, in science, in communication. In pride or hubris, lies are own downfall. It's a very common theme in all human stories, from Sophocles to Shakespeare to Hannibal Lecter.
Christ ascending into Heaven is visually meaningful to us but only a child or a fundamentalist would think of Him remaining above or beyond a specific geographic or spatial location.
Heaven is compassion in action. And free cigars.

"the heavens above"?

kumate_champ07

homer911 wrote: »

Putting the Atheist responses to one side - You are thinking 4-dimensionally

God has existed for ever, before our concept of time began, and before the universe was created by him

Therefore, God exists outside of Time and Space, therefore Heaven exists outside of Time and Space

maybe god is time and space?

endacl

It's in blanch.

http://www.dublinks.com/index.cfm/loc/12/pt/0/spid/9B9F2502-B8C5-1397-CAD21BB35329FFA5.htm

Gumbi

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

homer911 wrote: »

Putting the Atheist responses to one side - You are thinking 4-dimensionally

God has existed for ever, before our concept of time began, and before the universe was created by him

Therefore, God exists outside of Time and Space, therefore Heaven exists outside of Time and Space

maybe god is time and space?

Maybe he isn't???

homer911

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

maybe god is time and space?

God cannot be time and space, if he created time and space

"In the beginning was the Word..."

Northclare

Heaven is nowhere,heaven is everywhere.
From a spiritual perspective,heaven is a personal thing,there's only one way to find out about heaven,it's by being there.

John Moriarty called death,the departure lounge, he said life goes on in a different place.

I'm not religious but I love life and hope I go on in a different place, when I die ill go on.....

Death is a departure lounge not a terminal One....

santing

Northclare wrote: »

Heaven is nowhere,heaven is everywhere.
From a spiritual perspective,heaven is a personal thing,there's only one way to find out about heaven,it's by being there.

John Moriarty called death,the departure lounge, he said life goes on in a different place.

I'm not religious but I love life and hope I go on in a different place, when I die ill go on.....

Death is a departure lounge not a terminal One....

What gives fuel to your "hope" that you will go in a different place, and what makes you sure it will be heaven?
If heaven is personal, does everyone creates/gets his/her own heaven?

Northclare

That's the thing, I don't know where I'm going when I die....

I'm happy with my contradictions lol

I cant give you a straight answer and I just have my own idea of heaven,it could be an evening fly fishing on a spate river...
A walk in the Burren in August...

Just spending time with a beautiful woman.

A bowl of fruit salad on a hot summers day.

A glass of Coke after 3 hours of hard graft.

Fish and Chips in Macdonaghs in Galway....

Heaven is within,contentment and peace of mind,enjoying the moment,seeing the wood from the trees.....

totus tuus

Northclare wrote: »

That's the thing, I don't know where I'm going when I die....

I'm happy with my contradictions lol

I cant give you a straight answer and I just have my own idea of heaven,it could be an evening fly fishing on a spate river...
A walk in the Burren in August...

Just spending time with a beautiful woman.

A bowl of fruit salad on a hot summers day.

A glass of Coke after 3 hours of hard graft.

Fish and Chips in Macdonaghs in Galway....

Heaven is within,contentment and peace of mind,enjoying the moment,seeing the wood from the trees.....

My sister-in-law works in Macdonagh's in Quay street, would that be the MacDonagh's you're referring to?

Sin City

santing wrote: »

That is one meaning for the word heaven - and probably the meaning the OP is looking for. It is not part of this creation and is very close to us, but in another dimension. Apart from this use of the word Heaven (in John 14 "the House of my Father") in the original language the word heaven is mainly plural, with the first heaven being the sky above the earth, the second the universe - so these are part of creation. The third heaven is probably the place where the angels dwell, so also part of the creation, but not part of our known universe - indeed think 4 (or multi dimensional). This heaven is also tainted by sin (but not the house of the father) and will be renewed.

See thats what I was thinking, is it in another dimension to the one that we inhabit, and if it is as such, would it be at least theoreticly possible to get there without going through the formality of dying (or waiting around for the second comming)

This isnt athestic reply by the way just a theoretical one.

Northclare

Yeah thats the place on Quay Street they do a lovely fish and chip

Sin City

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I recommend that if you are genuinely interested in the subject that you do further real study.
Nowhere in Christianity, as far as I know, is Heaven given a geographic location.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

Best for you to read some commentaries on the tower of Babel. I don't see where it says that God was afraid. The story is an allegory concerning the arrogance of men and women. Pride in technology, in learning, in theology, in science, in communication. In pride or hubris, lies are own downfall. It's a very common theme in all human stories, from Sophocles to Shakespeare to Hannibal Lecter.
Christ ascending into Heaven is visually meaningful to us but only a child or a fundamentalist would think of Him remaining above or beyond a specific geographic or spatial location.
Heaven is compassion in action. And free cigars.

Anything more solid than Wiki?

Canis Lupus

Sin City wrote: »

See thats what I was thinking, is it in another dimension to the one that we inhabit, and if it is as such, would it be at least theoreticly possible to get there without going through the formality of dying (or waiting around for the second comming)

This isnt athestic reply by the way just a theoretical one.

That's what I was just pondering reading this. If it physically exists (as the religious think it does) then surely science will one day discover it. Which I imagine will cause everyones heads to implode.

santing

Sin City wrote: »

See thats what I was thinking, is it in another dimension to the one that we inhabit, and if it is as such, would it be at least theoreticly possible to get there without going through the formality of dying (or waiting around for the second comming)

This isnt athestic reply by the way just a theoretical one.

It is theoretically possible to go from heaven to earth and vice versa - Angels seem to manage it. The Lord Jesus (being still fully human) went from earth to heaven after his resurrection and will return (being still fully human).
I don't think humans are capable to do this within the "natural" capabilities - so science is not helpful here.

CMpunked

I believe Heaven exists somewhere. But i believe it exists on a different wavelength to everything else.

You know the way everything in our world vibrates at different frequencies? Like the things that vibrate the most are more solid like titanium and the things that vibrate less is like air.
Well heaven could exist on a wavelength that we just cant measure. That when we die and our mortal body stops vibrating at one frequency but our soul reduces in vibration and moves to the place where those frequencies reside. Like a magnet, i suppose.

Gumbi

CMpunked wrote: »

I believe Heaven exists somewhere. But i believe it exists on a different wavelength to everything else.

You know the way everything in our world vibrates at different frequencies? Like the things that vibrate the most are more solid like titanium and the things that vibrate less is like air.
Well heaven could exist on a wavelength that we just cant measure. That when we die and our mortal body stops vibrating at one frequency but our soul reduces in vibration and moves to the place where those frequencies reside. Like a magnet, i suppose.

Do you actually know a wavelength is? I don't think that you do.

CMpunked

Gumbi wrote: »

Do you actually know a wavelength is? I don't think that you do.

It was a bad choice for a lack of a better word. What one should i have used?

Gumbi

CMpunked wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

Do you actually know a wavelength is? I don't think that you do.

It was a bad choice for a lack of a better word. What one should i have used?

I don't have a clue what you're trying to say, can't help tbh

CMpunked

Gumbi wrote: »

I don't have a clue what you're trying to say, can't help tbh

Ah. Shame.

I heard the description off a friend of mine a while back so think i'll go back to him and get clarification as i obviously cant retell it as good as it sounded.

mcmoustache

CMpunked wrote: »

It was a bad choice for a lack of a better word. What one should i have used?

I was sure I responded to this last night but my post wasn't here this morning. The problem with using words like "wavelength" is that they are testable. If you say heaven is in a different wavelength to us, we can check all the wavelengths and we might not find heaven. You might as well say it's up mount Olympus or up in the sky. Both can be checked and this allows for the falsification of heaven which isn't in any Christian's interest.

With regard to where heaven is, I think that the best source of information on heaven can be found in the bible. There are several accounts of Jesus's ascension, which, although tricky to reconcile, at least provide a reasonable starting point. He was witnessed on his way to heaven in full bodily form and unlike everyone else, it was possible to watch him as he went.

According to Luke, Jesus was carried up into heaven. This is also corroborated by the Book of Acts in that he rose up and disappeared into the clouds in Israel during spring. These accounts seem fairly consistent with one another and they would suggest that the direction towards heaven is up. Let's not forget that Jesus ascended in bodily form and was witnessed.

Mark, on the other hand throws a spanner in the works with an account of Jesus being seen seated at the right hand side of God. This suggests that heaven was visible to those on earth for a moment or two.

How can Mark's version be reconciled with Luke's and the Book of Acts? If Jesus rose up in the air and disappeared into the clouds, how did Mark see him seated with God?

I'm really not sure but perhaps Mark had a vision or maybe embellished things a little. More people saw Jesus rise up than saw Him seated. If people witnessed Jesus going up in the air into the clouds, this shows that heaven is either in or beyond the clouds.

We can dismiss the idea that it's "in" the clouds since we've all been in them at some point and didn't find heaven, so that leaves us with a heaven beyond the clouds. Assuming that the ascension wasn't a theatrical piece, this means that to get to heaven, one must go into outer space.

unfortunately, at this point, without biblical evidence, we can only speculate on what happened beyond the clouds. Did Jesus go through a wormhole and into another universe? Was he magicked out from our existence into the eternal one? Did he suffocate and freeze and go to heaven like the rest of us? Unfortunately, the bible doesn't mention this.

With regard to Mark, if we assume for a moment that Luke and the the Book of Acts got things wrong, it may be that heaven is some sort of parallel universe that bled into ours for that moment when Mark could see Jesus with God. If God made everything, there's no reason why he couldn't have on universe interfere with another. It's nothing more than a four-dimensional projection after all. It is a bit far-fetched, though.

Personally, I think Mark's account isn't plausible. I have no idea where heaven is, but according to the account with the most witnesses, to get there, you need to go up beyond the clouds.What happens beyond the clouds is anyone's guess.

As for CMPunked's question, I would suggest a something like Astral Plane or Universe. These put heaven beyond scientific testability. the last thing any true Christian wants is for the existence of heaven to be testable and found to fail that test.

santing

mcmoustache wrote: »

If people witnessed Jesus going up in the air into the clouds, this shows that heaven is either in or beyond the clouds.

Or the entrance to Heaven is clouded so it stays hidden from our sight?
The entrance of heaven cannot be in the clouds, because than the door would be closed on a cloudless day. I think the clouds serve more as a "curtain" - removing the transition from our eyes.

Northclare

Go back to a time in your life when you were young, innocent, and not caught up in Ego selfishness and materialism.

Now imagine heaven as you thought of it back then,it's that heaven I held onto....

Summer meadows with a river running through it.
You could sit down close your eyes and let the sound of that river take you to eternity..watch nature,feel the sun on my face,smell the ever lasting smell of floral delights....

I know some people who describe death as a pile of bones wrapped in rotten flesh and they turn into a blue bottle factory,that's their Idea of death,but turn that into a positive and you could describe them as a lord of the flies,they are of use to feeding flies or whatever else decides to take a bite
The flies,insects and bacteria live on and multiply...

Heaven is all around us if only we had the eyes to appreciate this planet and walk beautifuly on the earth.

Someone else described something about being a caterpillar and metamorphosis into something more beautiful like a butterfly...

You don't hear them guys called priests talking about metamorphosis or how beautiful our planet is.....

chozometroid

I see no reason to believe Heaven couldn't be in our universe. Where did the idea come from that spiritual things are in a different reality? Depends on what you mean by it, I guess. Maybe they are not recognized by our five senses, but I don't think angels, demons, heaven are all in some magical parallel universe. I think everything God has made mentioned in the Bible is part of the same "reality" and just of different natures.

I believe the New Jerusalem will descend to the Earth. There will be a new heavens and a new Earth, because the current Earth will be purged with fire. Whatever God has to do to make our new home free from sin and eternal will be done, basically.

Here is a good study on it if you care to read it: (I didn't read it all and it may not follow my beliefs exactly, but it appears to contain the relevant verses for this particular topic)
http://bible.org/seriespage/21-new-heaven-and-new-earth