Kona roll down

bryangiggsy

On JB's request have started a thread on this..

If you accept a roll down slot do you deserve to go to kona or not?

couerdelion

bryangiggsy wrote: »

On JB's request have started a thread on this..

If you accept a roll down slot do you deserve to go to kona or not?

I don't think it's a case of not deserving it. But I can't think of the right way to describe it.

It's like going home with a girl after she's asked your mate for a ride and he's said "no". You're still grateful and all that but it's a little hollow and not fully earnt.

If I came 50th and got a role down slot offered I would stil say "yes" though. Lady luck and all that.

Izoard

There are all shapes and sizes that end up going to Kona, via a variety of routes.

Do the lotteries "deserve" to be there?

It is not just the "best of the best" - plenty of people struggling to finish in sub-17.

You earn/win/buy/luck out to get a golden ticket and you go....

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

For me i would find it very hard to accept a roll down slot in Frankfurt next year (if in that position) I am gearing everything towards qualifying for Kona on merit and off my own steam without depending on how others race.
It's been well known in my log for a long time my dream is to race Kona and i am not sure i would accept a roll down slot as if i do something has gone wrong with my goals, aspirations and training in the process.
BTW i am in no way saying its wrong not to accept a roll down slot just personally i would find it difficult although very tempting all the same.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

couerdelion wrote: »

It's like going home with a girl after she's asked your mate for a ride and he's said "no". You're still grateful and all that but it's a little hollow and not fully earnt.

Actually this sums it up much better than my post.

nerraw1111

If you're offered a Kona slot, you earned it and thus deserved it.

It's not exactly a world championships given the lottery, race (pay us) 12 times and go to Kona. Not to mention the sob inspirational stories.

kingQuez

Given the slot allocations are different across different events, and within events they are then distributed one per age group and subsequent spare slots are given out proportionally to the numbers of age groupers within that race by category, the number of qualifying slots per age group across races is somewhat arbitrary. Taking a rolldown doesn't change that; there will be people with rolldowns from one race that performed better than the "pure" qualifiers from another one.

No issue with a rolldown.

Here's some more on the same..

1. why target a race based on its number of qualification slots? if you're good enough for kona surely you should be able to qualify at any of the races, no?

2. qualifying from a 70.3. yay or nay?

bryangiggsy

kingQuez wrote: »

Given the slot allocations are different across different events, and within events they are then distributed one per age group and subsequent spare slots are given out proportionally to the numbers of age groupers within that race by category, the number of qualifying slots per age group across races is somewhat arbitrary. Taking a rolldown doesn't change that; there will be people with rolldowns from one race that performed better than the "pure" qualifiers from another one.

No issue with a rolldown.

Here's some more on the same..

1. why target a race based on its number of qualification slots? if you're good enough for kona surely you should be able to qualify at any of the races, no?

2. qualifying from a 70.3. yay or nay?

Would agree with John here.
Depth of talent varies at every race. If you good enough to get a roll down you good enough to go.

Bambaata

Kaelyn Witty Self-restraint wrote: »

For me i would find it very hard to accept a roll down slot in Frankfurt next year (if in that position) I am gearing everything towards qualifying for Kona on merit and off my own steam without depending on how others race.
It's been well known in my log for a long time my dream is to race Kona and i am not sure i would accept a roll down slot as if i do something has gone wrong with my goals, aspirations and training in the process.
BTW i am in no way saying its wrong not to accept a roll down slot just personally i would find it difficult although very tempting all the same.

If it happens this way then you'd be mad to refuse it! I can see how it seems a hollow victory but that feeling towards it will only last a few minutes. As soon as you have that ticket things would change! Can you imagine refusing it on that basis. You'd be kicking yourself!

I felt similar to this last year at the Galway 70.3, i had had a woeful race for me and was pretty gutted with the outcome (i screwed myself up before race day). That said i went to the awards (more because i missed out on all the afters after Austria and wanted to get it all in this time) and saw that a lot were rolling down. I ended up missing it by 1 or 2 spots. I never thought id even get the option but had it come to me id have been running to the ATM! Fortunately it didn't as i couldn't go this year as it happens but my tune changed fairly quickly once i saw the spots rolling down. Before that i was in the same mind as you JB.

catweazle

If a roll down is good enough for Matt Molloy after running a 9.02 it would be more than good enough for me.

Fazz

Defo no issue with a roll down here.

It's not like there'd be many roll downs anyway most likely.

Always aim to make it in first 3/x obviously but if a roll down occurs then fine lady luck it is.
So many variables of a good day vs bad vs he drafted vs flat etc.
Anyone close to a qualy slot deserves it.
Heck even 5 roll downs who cares.
There could be some guys who are almost pro but still racing as AG also so hard to get a ticket unless you earn one in my eyes.

peter kern

as long there is a lottery I would not even discuss role down slots ........

Bambaata

Is the livestrong bidding thing still going or has that been dropped like a hot potato?

shotgunmcos

6 slots in 30-34 and it has rolled down to 9 th. Complete BS if you state your intentions to make Kona but wouldn't take a roll down ! Ever been a sub for your school soccer team and come on to score a goal. Give me a break. It rolls down and it could be your day. You were close enough. Would you be a stand by for the Olympic Team etc... ?

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

6 slots in 30-34 and it has rolled down to 9 th. Complete BS if you state your intentions to make Kona but wouldn't take a roll down ! Ever been a sub for your school soccer team and come on to score a goal. Give me a break. It rolls down and it could be your day. You were close enough. Would you be a stand by for the Olympic Team etc... ?

Team GB for olympic, do they accept people with the B standard? No. What about the olympic A standard? No. they made up their own standard which exceeds the A standard and if you don't make that tough - they are not interested in sending people who really shouldn't be there.

"I really want to go to Kona".
Does this mean "I want to get fast and make the standard, the real standard" or does this mean to you "A nice holiday and some sunbathing in Hawaii would be epic, but I need an excuse to go".

Sounds like you are the latter MCOS and JB is the former.

Notwitch

tunney wrote: »

"I really want to go to Kona".
Does this mean "I want to get fast and make the standard, the real standard" or does this mean to you "A nice holiday and some sunbathing in Hawaii would be epic, but I need an excuse to go".

Sounds like you are the latter MCOS and JB is the former.

Or, MCOS could claim back the moral high ground by saying

"I really want to podium in Kona next year, so the sensible option is to get experience on the course this year"

Is that hugely dissimilar to JBs

"I really want to podium in Frankfurt next year, so I need Ironman experience this year"

How many years did it take Macca to crack Kona?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shotgunmcos wrote: »

6 slots in 30-34 and it has rolled down to 9 th. Complete BS if you state your intentions to make Kona but wouldn't take a roll down ! Ever been a sub for your school soccer team and come on to score a goal. Give me a break. It rolls down and it could be your day. You were close enough. Would you be a stand by for the Olympic Team etc... ?

Close enough but is that enough?

Just because someone has a different view or opinion should not make it a BS one. My intentions are to qualify for Kona because I qualified legit not because people who raced better on the day passed up on the opportunity. I don't want to go to Kona just to tick a box i want to go because i deserved and earned it.
Its easy for me to say this now and it could be a different scenario if i am sitting in the hall hearing the KQ names being called out but this is my current view on it. Don't get me started on lottery slots:)

shotgunmcos

tunney wrote: »

Team GB for olympic, do they accept people with the B standard? No. What about the olympic A standard? No. they made up their own standard which exceeds the A standard and if you don't make that tough - they are not interested in sending people who really shouldn't be there.

Whats that got to do with it? Corporate Goals are money driven. No one more than Tim Don feeling that. I agree with Team GBs policy by the way, Results inspire. Back to the individual and Kona, Are you saying that if a slot rolled down to you, you would walk away from it? What if your main objective for the race was to QF for Kona? What if you had missed it by 30 seconds due a muppet T2 that cost you, only to find the guy above you already had his slot from another race and it thus rolled down?

tunney wrote: »

"I really want to go to Kona".
Does this mean "I want to get fast and make the standard, the real standard" or does this mean to you "A nice holiday and some sunbathing in Hawaii would be epic, but I need an excuse to go".

Sounds like you are the latter MCOS and JB is the former.

The dozens of psychometric tests I've taken over the years would suggest otherwise Although I suspect that statement was more intended for your B!tch


Seriously, what is "the standard, the real standard"? Is it a specific benchmark?

BennyMul

Kaelyn Witty Self-restraint wrote: »

I don't want to go to Kona just to tick a box i want to go because i deserved and earned it.

Do you honestly think that accepting a roll down slot means you did not deserve the place ?
If someone beats you on the day then they beat you. however it does not mean you dit not earn the right.

But I do understand where you are coming from,

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

BennyMul wrote: »

Do you honestly think that accepting a roll down slot means you did not deserve the place ?
If someone beats you on the day then they beat you. however it does not mean you dit not earn the right.

But I do understand where you are coming from,

Personally yes thats the way i see it.

tunney

BennyMul wrote: »

Do you honestly think that accepting a roll down slot means you did not deserve the place ?
If someone beats you on the day then they beat you. however it does not mean you dit not earn the right.

But I do understand where you are coming from,

"If someone beats you on the day then they beat you. "

This I cannot reconcile with

"however it does not mean you dit not earn the right. "

Izoard

JB - simple question; at IM Germany, you are offered a roll-down - do you take it?

tunney

Izoard wrote: »

JB - simple question; at IM Germany, you are offered a roll-down - do you take it?

Its not an easy question though.

Izoard

tunney wrote: »

Its not an easy question though.

It is - yes or no is sufficient...

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Izoard wrote: »

JB - simple question; at IM Germany, you are offered a roll-down - do you take it?

If i was to answer right now it would be no (as stupid as that may sound to some on here) A lot can change though and as i said previously its hard to say what would happen if you sitting there at the roll down ceremony. I will say one thing if i did accept a slot whilst i would be delighted to go there would be a large part of me saying do i deserve to go.

I would be interested to hear from someone who has been in that position and how they felt before and after taking a roll down slot.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Although I suspect that statement was more intended for your B!tch

I am reporting you to a Mod....oh wait:)

kingQuez

Given there's only one guaranteed slot per age group, would you be happy with an allocated slot that's not a rolldown, but not the first offered?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

kingQuez wrote: »

Given there's only one guaranteed slot per age group, would you be happy with an allocated slot that's not a rolldown, but not the first offered?

Take IM Frankfurt as an example last year, there was 15 slots allocated to the AG i will be racing in next year. Generally speaking you will know where you need to place before the start for a guaranteed slot. If i place top 15 yes i have no issues with taking an allocated slot as i deserve to. However by the looks of it last year there was 5 roll down slots so 20th got in, i would not take a roll down slot.

griffin100

So if you get to Kona on a roll down you don't 'deserve' to be there? Kona is as much about who can afford to be there as opposed to those who deserves to be. If you can afford a good bike, aero wheels, a PM, a coach, travel to multiple overpriced qualification races, the cost of travelling to Hawaii for two weeks along with all the associated time off work then you've an advantage over most already.

What if you get a slot because someone else had a mechanical on the bike whilst they were well ahead of you?

What if you get a slot only because the really fast guys chose a different qualifier race?

What if yo get your place in Kona for 2013 via IM Wales 2012 which has a weak field because anyone who's already qualified for 2012 ain't racing it?

What if you miss out by one spot and then another age group transfers a spot over as there were not enough people racing in that group?

What if you get a spot via a race with lots of slots in your age group as opposed to one with a lot less?

When Chrissie won in Kona after taking help from another competitor did that diminish her title?

At the end of the day if you're happy to sit at home watching Kona online whilst someone else is racing in the slot you turned down then fair play to you, I couldn't....but then again my only chance of getting to Kona is to win a place via the lottery which despite what the 'elite' think is a perfectly valid way of getting a place in this race as the lottery was designed to keep the race open to normal people.

shotgunmcos

Kaelyn Witty Self-restraint wrote: »

Izoard wrote: »

JB - simple question; at IM Germany, you are offered a roll-down - do you take it?

If i was to answer right now it would be no (as stupid as that may sound to some on here) A lot can change though and as i said previously its hard to say what would happen if you sitting there at the roll down ceremony. I will say one thing if i did accept a slot whilst i would be delighted to go there would be a large part of me saying do i deserve to go.

I would be interested to hear from someone who has been in that position and how they felt before and after taking a roll down slot.

Would it help if you were faced with a rolldown slot after doing 9:55 knowing that 10:15 took an AG win and automatic slot in another race?

I heard from a mate yesterday who got a rolldown slot with a time over half an hour slower than was needed last year. He felt lucky. I asked him if he was going to take it? He did. It may have been too soon. Perhaps jumping the gun on a 3 year plan. He may yet decide not to go. If the dream is an AG win at Kona then on Notwitches point a run out at Kona will serve as a better dress rehearsal than a sheltered or wet and cold European race.

Would you really pass up that opportunity? Maybe it will take a 8:50 next year to get it who knows...

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

griffin100 wrote: »

So if you get to Kona on a roll down you don't 'deserve' to be there? Kona is as much about who can afford to be there as opposed to those who deserves to be. If you can afford a good bike, aero wheels, a PM, a coach, travel to multiple overpriced qualification races, the cost of travelling to Hawaii for two weeks along with all the associated time off work then you've an advantage over most already.

What if you get a slot because someone else had a mechanical on the bike whilst they were well ahead of you? How am i to know, tough luck i say

What if you get a slot only because the really fast guys chose a different qualifier race? I can only race against those in the race

What if yo get your place in Kona for 2013 via IM Wales 2012 which has a weak field because anyone who's already qualified for 2012 ain't racing it? As above i would also add there is a lot of ways you can increase your chances to qualify automatically and race selection is one of them

What if you miss out by one spot and then another age group transfers a spot over as there were not enough people racing in that group? Tough one technically still a roll down

What if you get a spot via a race with lots of slots in your age group as opposed to one with a lot less? Its all worked out as a percantile of the field so i see no issue there, see my 35-39AG example for Frankfurt with 15 spots

When Chrissie won in Kona after taking help from another competitor did that diminish her title? No but i don't see what that has got to do with roll down slots

At the end of the day if you're happy to sit at home watching Kona online whilst someone else is racing in the slot you turned down then fair play to you, I couldn't....but then again my only chance of getting to Kona is to win a place via the lottery which despite what the 'elite' think is a perfectly valid way of getting a place in this race as the lottery was designed to keep the race open to normal people. I disagree on the lottery for Kona slots

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Would it help if you were faced with a rolldown slot after doing 9:55 knowing that 10:15 took an AG win and automatic slot in another race? Mike you know you cannot compare apples and oranges with depth of field and different course profiles

I heard from a mate yesterday who got a rolldown slot with a time over half an hour slower than was needed last year. He felt lucky. I asked him if he was going to take it? He did. It may have been too soon. Perhaps jumping the gun on a 3 year plan. He may yet decide not to go. I would asky why? If the dream is an AG win at Kona then on Notwitches point a run out at Kona will serve as a better dress rehearsal than a sheltered or wet and cold European race. It is a fair point alright

Would you really pass up that opportunity? Maybe it will take a 8:50 next year to get it who knows...And perhaps i will need to rethink goals, you can only prepare the best you can and hope its good enough on the day.

Right side stepping this thread from here on i think i made it clear on my own views rightly or wrongly, i have a race to get ready for:)

nerraw1111

Griffin nails it. Kona is as much about those who can afford to go fast.

The qualification for Kona is so arbitrary that it never actually features the best of the best. Features some who did soft races, some who qualified in tough competitive races etc etc etc

If the qualification system was actually fair then there might be some merit in not accepting a roll down. As it is, It's a very expensive lottery for fast people.

A roll down is the same as passing a competitor with a puncture. It's luck that you gained a place.

pgibbo

Kaelyn Witty Self-restraint wrote: »

Close enough but is that enough?

Just because someone has a different view or opinion should not make it a BS one. My intentions are to qualify for Kona because I qualified legit not because people who raced better on the day passed up on the opportunity. I don't want to go to Kona just to tick a box i want to go because i deserved and earned it.
Its easy for me to say this now and it could be a different scenario if i am sitting in the hall hearing the KQ names being called out but this is my current view on it. Don't get me started on lottery slots:)

What would you do if one of the rolldown slots were as a result of someone that had already qualified?

shotgunmcos

pgibbo wrote: »

Kaelyn Witty Self-restraint wrote: »

Close enough but is that enough?

Just because someone has a different view or opinion should not make it a BS one. My intentions are to qualify for Kona because I qualified legit not because people who raced better on the day passed up on the opportunity. I don't want to go to Kona just to tick a box i want to go because i deserved and earned it.
Its easy for me to say this now and it could be a different scenario if i am sitting in the hall hearing the KQ names being called out but this is my current view on it. Don't get me started on lottery slots:)

What would you do if one of the rolldown slots were as a result of someone that had already qualified?

Both JB and Tunney have already side stepped that question

Head The Wall

What if the guys ahead of you whose slots were rolled down to you hadn't raced that day?

You would have received a slot on the very same finishing time so by your thinking then it would be deserved, don't forget that the race is all about finishing in the quickest time and not what position you finished in he qualifiers. I think it's a ridiculous reason not to go

HalfTri

Heard about this thread. Good read!

pgibbo

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Both JB and Tunney have already side stepped that question

Hopefully they'll answer next week after Roth....

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Both JB and Tunney have already side stepped that question

My position is well known. I've simply chosen not to give it here.

HalfTri

So Martin Muldoon (Fastest irish ironman officially), Matt Molloy (fastest irishman in Kona) & Owen Martin shouldn't take their spots?

Even if the people ahead of them had already qualified? And even if some pro's are moving back to AG..

Better to choose a race closer to Kona - when you know the field would be less stacked?

I know - opinions, opinions, opinions but if you trained your arse off and came that close - and the person that didn't take spot was someone who had already qualified (by the way - you rarely know) - I find it hard to believe that you or JB would refuse it but I suppose - ye haven't been in that position when your given 5 seconds to either stand up and take it or stay sitting and everyone else wondering - "whats wrong with that guy".

Also maybe its thats guys only chance at Kona - Even you know Tunney that things change. That year you came off your bike and had trained your ass off for Austria - Would you have taken a spot? Would you have taken a roll down? Even if you knew that circumstances next year and so on were changing and that you'd prob never again be able to dedicate the same time to the training? That it was your one and only shot?

Maybe like you said - you wouldn't and JB wouldn't

But - It ain't as clear cut as ye're making out