Ireland and South Africa Rivalry

boksmashoffice

I am a Saffa living in Ireland and settled here and enjoy living and working here and consider to be home. I have read a few of the autobiographys by south african rugby players and managers (John Smit, Victor Matfield,Pierre Spies, Os Du Rant, Jake White, Juan Smith and Mourne Du Pleisiss). The books were a great read to get an insight into what it is to be a Bok.

One reoccuring theme was that there seems to be a dislike between South African and irish Rugby players. The South African players also cannot stand mike Phillips (which I think is very common)

In the 2009 Lions tours the players did not share beers after matchs which I think is disappointing and not in the spirit of the game (especially tours) The reason that was mentioned was a few of the Irish lads did not want to mix with the south africans and as a result all the Lions did not bother.

I have not read autobiographys of irish Players and have asked my irish mates to shed light but they cannot come up with anything.

Can anyone shed light on this?

CatFromHue

It's the first I've heard of anything large scale it to be honest.

I know we toured SA in 1998 and from reports the Irish players weren't happy with how they were treated (off the field) and the last test just turned into a fight.

irishbucsfan

I had heard about the Lions thing. I can't say I know what it was all about tbh

Mike Phillips is Welsh?

durkadurka

Deleted User wrote: »

Mike Phillips is Welsh?

No way!

Fishooks12

I think the fact that one of the SA players tried to claw Luke Fitzgerald's eyes out might have something to do with it, not to mention the reaction of the coach to the disgusting incident

CatFromHue

John Smit wanted to have a few beers after each test on 09 Lions tour and the Lions wanted to wait until after the third test.

There is more in the link below to an extract from his book.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/an-extract-from-john-smit-s-new-book-1.609203

boksmashoffice

@ Fishhooks. I think that was in the 2nd test. Schalk is not a dirty player. Look at his record.
cited once 2007 WC after Samoa match. incident was lauaghable.
Sent off in currie cup for 2 yellow cards is all ican think off plus the incident you reffered to. This is off the top of me head.
@ Emmett02. I know Phillips is welsh. It was a re occuring theme in matfield's, Smits and Spies autobiographys.

@catfromhue: Thanks for extract. there is a specific mention of an unnamed irsih player in Smits autobiography. on another page.

jacothelad

Isn't it entirely possible that the tour management didn't want any negative publicity from possible drink fuelled incidents - remember how often the Welsh lads lost self control due to drink - so directed the players away from such normal fraternisation.

Oh! ...and trying to digitally examine the back of Luke Fitzgerald's eyesockets was a bit of a disincentive to a couple of beers.

CatFromHue

jacothelad wrote: »

Isn't it entirely possible that the tour management didn't want any negative publicity from possible drink fuelled incidents - remember how often the Welsh lads lost self control due to drink - so directed the players away from such normal fraternisation.

Oh! ...and trying to digitally examine the back of Luke Fitzgerald's eyesockets was a bit of a disincentive to a couple of beers.

The Fitzgerald gouge was in the second test.

Fishooks12

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@ Fishhooks. I think that was in the 2nd test. Schalk is not a dirty player. Look at his record.
cited once 2007 WC after Samoa match. incident was lauaghable.
Sent off in currie cup for 2 yellow cards is all ican think off plus the incident you reffered to. This is off the top of me head.
@ Emmett02. I know Phillips is welsh. It was a re occuring theme in matfield's, Smits and Spies autobiographys.

@catfromhue: Thanks for extract. there is a specific mention of an unnamed irsih player in Smits autobiography. on another page.

That's on his record, a shameful act

boksmashoffice

@ Jacothehead: I think just a drink would be nice. The lions also did not give their match jerseys to their Bok rival.They gave replica's which anyone can buy from shops. Its a classless thing to do. Anyway that's besides the point.

Again all i would say is Schalk is not a dirty player. He plays a hard physical game and I think I would agree with Smits point of view (see extract posted by CueFromHue).

Thats my take.

Flincher

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@ Fishhooks. I think that was in the 2nd test. Schalk is not a dirty player. Look at his record.

Apart from the assassination of her husband, Mrs Kennedy enjoyed her trip to Dallas.....

It's a fairly big incident to brush aside when you're claiming somebody isn't a dirty player. Certainly one of the more blatant examples of gouging in recent years.

Back on topic, I can't remember any on-field incidents before the tour which might have sparked something, maybe there was some incident after one of the games. Not everyone gets on, unfortunately.

Tim Robbins

CatFromHue wrote: »

John Smit wanted to have a few beers after each test on 09 Lions tour and the Lions wanted to wait until after the third test.

There is more in the link below to an extract from his book.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/an-extract-from-john-smit-s-new-book-1.609203

Either it's too late to be reading or the standard of English in that piece is pretty poor. I found it difficult to read.

Hagz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

The lions also did not give their match jerseys to their Bok rival.

Who in their right mind would give anyone their Lions jersey?! Unless I knew I was going to play all three tests I wouldn't even consider it.

boksmashoffice

@Flincher. I am not brushing aside. Its a regreatable incident. Thanks for the input
Like the kennedy joke. I should change the threadname to Schalk Burger v Luke 'The Lion' .

Fishooks12

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@Flincher. I am not brushing aside. Its a regreatable incident. Thanks for the input
Like the kennedy joke. I should change the threadname to Schalk Burger v Luke 'The Lion' .

Well you asked for reasons as to why the Irish and SA's don't allegedly get on. A despicable act of cowardice like that might be a reason

boksmashoffice

@Hagz. The way it works at the top level. You are given 2 jerseys. One per half. The jerseys on the inside have the player’s name. The Cap number the player has. The date and opponents. So when you swap Jerseys with an opponent. You know exactly that there has been real blood and sweat in the jersey. The Bok players gave their real jerseys and so it should be reciprocated. Those lads would not be playing the lions again. You have to remember playing the Lions is as much of a big deal for all the southern hemisphere nations.

Hagz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@Hagz. The way it works at the top level. You are given 2 jerseys. One per half. The jerseys on the inside have the player’s name. The Cap number the player has. The date and opponents. So when you swap Jerseys with an opponent. You know exactly that there has been real blood and sweat in the jersey. The Bok players gave their real jerseys and so it should be reciprocated. Those lads would not be playing the lions again. You have to remember playing the Lions is as much of a big deal for all the southern hemisphere nations.

I didn't know they had two sets of jerseys. I knew they changed it if it ripped or was covered in blood etc. That's weird. How have I not noticed players coming out squeaky clean in the 2nd half. Shows how observant I am.

boksmashoffice

@Fishooks12. Thanks for that. Again that was the 2nd test. It was an issue before the 1st test.
Would you consider stamping on someones head an act of cowardice?
Kneeing someone?

Again getting off topic. Thanks for input.

.ak

SA are the masters of the niggily, off the ball incidents. I know this may come as a shock to you boksmashoffice, but Burger is generally regarded around the world as a niggily, dirty player... PRIOR to the Luke incident. I've met Kiwis, Irish, English, Welsh, Aussies that all love to hate Burger. That's not to say he's a bad person/player or anything, but he has a rep for being a dirty player. You don't need citings or a 'record book' to know that.


But, what's Burger got to do with the Lions? Probably feck all. A whole lot of nothing probably. Who knows what happened behind the scenes? Maybe the Lions were being unsporting by not swapping jerseys/going out for drinks? Or maybe SA did something to cause it? I guess we'll never know.

jacothelad

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@Fishooks12. Thanks for that. Again that was the 2nd test. It was an issue before the 1st test.
Would you consider stamping on someones head an act of cowardice?
Kneeing someone?

Again getting off topic. Thanks for input.

Absolutely, along with dislocating an opponents shoulder.

durkadurka

There's a spitting image song coming to mind

Hagz

jacothelad wrote: »

Absolutely, along with dislocating an opponents shoulder.

Ah come on now. He hardly meant to dislocate his shoulder. Although Botha went against the law and was punished for it, what he did is done all the time. Even Adam Jones said that he doesn't think Botha should've got punished for that and even blames himself saying he shouldn't have got into such a position where he was vulnerable.

Just realised you might be referring to 05. If you are then disregard.

jm08

Gert Smal seems to be very happy here.

Jake White was very impolite prior to a rugby international a few years back. Said something to the effect that not one of the Irish team would make his Bok team. Did he mention that in his book?

Then I think ROG annoyed them a bit the time he scored that try when they were not looking.

sickpuppy

jm08 wrote: »

Gert Smal seems to be very happy here.

Jake White was very impolite prior to a rugby international a few years back. Said something to the effect that not one of the Irish team would make his Bok team. Did he mention that in his book?

Then I think ROG annoyed them a bit the time he scored that try when they were not looking.

Ya when the ref told the south african captain to talk to his players was bad try to give.

errlloyd

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Can anyone shed light on this?

Hey OP. In response to the original question, why was there bad blood before the tour?

The answer I guess is that we don't know. I always thought Ireland had a good on field relationship with South Africa.

May I be so bold as to suggest that all of this stems from one rumour? I appreciate it was mirrored in other bios, but it could have been one initial rumour, furthermore it may have only been one player voicing disinterest, and it could have been for any reason.

It would be a terrible shame if it were true

gOst

I was never aware of a SA grudge against Irish rugby players. Surely the heavy SA influence in Ulster, it would suggest otherwise?
I've always associated SA with bulk and brute strength (particularly at underage), but I'd also say i'd associate them with some pretty dodgy stuff aswell. Shoulder charging at peoples head/necks in rucks, high forearms around the head when tackling, the occasional eyeball itch reliever!

I could be mistaken but didn't Schalke Burger, hoof the ball into the crowd after scoring a try against Ireland not too long again. It's not a big deal but he didn't seem too bothered about endearing himself to the irish crowd?

I don't think Ireland play with the nastiness SA play with, yeah Donnacha Ryan is abrasive b*stard and I love him for it, but it's never in an illegal nature. Maybe thats unfair but the only incident comparable with any number saffa discretions I can think against international opposition is Heaslip trying to decapitate McCaw. Or maybe I'm completely biased and looking through green tinted glasses!!

The Aussie

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Schalk is not a dirty player. Look at his record.

I used to love watching the bloke when he was younger and at the top of his powers, brilliant player who won games by himself, but it was almost as if he made a conscious decision when he realized he was getting a bit slower, not as much strength, maybe some competition for his spot (who knows), to just be a pig on the pitch, the last couple of years was embarrassing.

here is a snippet from a failed attempt on Pocock. This is the sort of thing he just did for the last few seasons...

boksmashoffice

@ sickpuppy: Yes that was mentioned. Maybe it is Jake's and Schalks fault. There you go it is sorted.

I blame Paul Honiss for the ROG try for not being strong enough to say no try with 30 odd thousand irish going crazy at Lawnsdown rd. He bottled it big time considering he said 'Go and speak to your players'. It was clear as day to hear on the ref's mic.

@Aussie: I have to say Schalk does not look to clever there. How did you put the clip onto the screen like that?
Mind you that match you did have Bryce Lawrence playing for you too. The dude did not even ref the breakdown. Pocock got away with daylight robbery and fair play to him for taking advantage. You play the ref on the day and he did it better than us. He is a class player and that is for sure and the kiwis are world chaps.


Well I just put the question out there.

boksmashoffice

@ Hagz. The lions mgmt had no issues with the clearout. They coached their guys to go in to a ruck and clearout the same way. It just happened to be bakkies who is a very powerful chap. Jones was just unlucky.

irishbucsfan

boksmashoffice wrote: »

@ Hagz. The lions mgmt had no issues with the clearout. They coached their guys to go in to a ruck and clearout the same way. It just happened to be bakkies who is a very powerful chap. Jones was just unlucky.

It was illegal. Case closed.

Not on the same level as what the other Saffer did though. Disgraceful gouging, disgracefully short ban. He's often up to that stuff as well.

buck65

Yeah of all the teams in the world that I find it hard to like ar the Bokks, beating them in Croke Park a few years back after the Lions tour was special.
Smit is a pain in the hole the way he goes on at refs and is only on the field for that reason and Du Plessis standing over Brian O Driscoll threatening to punch him out? Classy guys.

bilston

Well there doesn't seem to be an issue between Ulster and South Africa anyway!

In fact there have been a few Saffers to play in Munster in recent years as well including the current Bok captain! I don't see much of an issue to be honest. There have been a few "interesting" moments over the years. The tour of 1998, ROG's try at Lansdowne Road and the Burger/Fitzgerald incident, plus Ireland have had a decent run against SA in recent years so maybe the Boks resented that but I don't think much of the above is that out of the ordinary.

Theta

boksmashoffice wrote: »

I blame Paul Honiss for the ROG try for not being strong enough to say no try with 30 odd thousand irish going crazy at Lawnsdown rd. He bottled it big time considering he said 'Go and speak to your players'. It was clear as day to hear on the ref's mic.

Which try was this? I was trying to find footage of it because I dont remember it

GerM

Theta wrote: »

Which try was this? I was trying to find footage of it because I dont remember it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/4009579.stm

It was a big deal at the time to beat the Boks. They had a touch of the mythical giants about them. The try was a mess. Honiss told Smit to talk to his players which generally means time off and no play. ROG saw Smit turned around and tapped and went. Boks were understandably compeltely unprepared. ROG squeezed over and Ireland won by a single score. Wasn't complaining at the time but it was a very poor decision.

PhatPiggins

boksmashoffice wrote: »

I am a Saffa living in Ireland and settled here and enjoy living and working here and consider to be home. I have read a few of the autobiographys by south african rugby players and managers (John Smit, Victor Matfield,Pierre Spies, Os Du Rant, Jake White, Juan Smith and Mourne Du Pleisiss). The books were a great read to get an insight into what it is to be a Bok.

One reoccuring theme was that there seems to be a dislike between South African and irish Rugby players. The South African players also cannot stand mike Phillips (which I think is very common)

In the 2009 Lions tours the players did not share beers after matchs which I think is disappointing and not in the spirit of the game (especially tours) The reason that was mentioned was a few of the Irish lads did not want to mix with the south africans and as a result all the Lions did not bother.

I have not read autobiographys of irish Players and have asked my irish mates to shed light but they cannot come up with anything.

Can anyone shed light on this?

Without wanting to sound like a kunt and not being an expert on Bok/Global relationships do the Boks get on with the players of any other national team?

bamboozle

The Aussie wrote: »

I used to love watching the bloke when he was younger and at the top of his powers, brilliant player who won games by himself, but it was almost as if he made a conscious decision when he realized he was getting a bit slower, not as much strength, maybe some competition for his spot (who knows), to just be a pig on the pitch, the last couple of years was embarrassing.

here is a snippet from a failed attempt on Pocock. This is the sort of thing he just did for the last few seasons...

that's disgusting. did he receive a ban for that?

my 2 cents worth re the rivalry, Burger's gouging of Luke should have resulted in a red card and a lions victory that day would have probably seen the lions win the series given the injuries that decimated SA for the 3rd test.
Crazy coaches balarina comments about this made the issue even more worse.
The only issue that SA could have with us is that fact that we manage to beat them a few times recently, which given the superiority complex they had no doubt p1ssed off a lot of their players.

cormpat

I know this is slightly off topic, but I was at the 2nd test match in Newlands, Cape Town in 2004 & I can remember getting dogs abuse from a load of old thick Afrikaner fellas. Screaming at us in Afrikans & then they would burst out laughing to them selves. Needless to say this hasn't endeared me to South African rugby. I've never experienced any abuse before (or since) at a rugby match. South Africa won that day as well, so whatever about being sore losers, but to behave like that when you're winning....

bilston

cormpat wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic, but I was at the 2nd test match in Newlands, Cape Town in 2004 & I can remember getting dogs abuse from a load of old thick Afrikaner fellas. Screaming at us in Afrikans & then they would burst out laughing to them selves. Needless to say this hasn't endeared me to South African rugby. I've never experienced any abuse before (or since) at a rugby match. South Africa won that day as well, so whatever about being sore losers, but to behave like that when you're winning....

I think we went into that series feeling very confident about our chances and I think a few of our players let the media know this. In the end we were just completely blown away by the power of South Africa.

CatFromHue

Even the SA press reckoned we'd win a game on that tour, if not more.

cormpat

bilston wrote: »

I think we went into that series feeling very confident about our chances and I think a few of our players let the media know this. In the end we were just completely blown away by the par of South Africa.

True, but that's still no excuse to behave like a complete cnut. We've flattered to deceive on many an occasion!

bilston

cormpat wrote: »

True, but that's still no excuse to behave like a complete cnut. We've flattered to deceive on many an occasion!

Agree although there are arseholes following all teams. Although in saying that do you remember when SA were playing NZ a few years back and a fat cnut of a so-called SA rugby fan ran onto the pitch and assaulted David McHugh? Maybe SA fans are just overly "enthusiastic"!

CatFromHue

cormpat wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic, but I was at the 2nd test match in Newlands, Cape Town in 2004 & I can remember getting dogs abuse from a load of old thick Afrikaner fellas. Screaming at us in Afrikans & then they would burst out laughing to them selves. Needless to say this hasn't endeared me to South African rugby. I've never experienced any abuse before (or since) at a rugby match. South Africa won that day as well, so whatever about being sore losers, but to behave like that when you're winning....

It's not just you if you know what I mean that has had problems with the crowd!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwYUZXzjKr0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40F-nO_zldQ

boksmashoffice

We are a passionate bunch when it comes to rugby.

Jim Telfer is a classy rugby coach. One of the best speechs I have heard was the one about the honest and dishonest rugby player (i think CueFromHue has posted above). Thanks for that.

I love having banter with oppisition fans but there are lines that should not be crossed and abusing fans in your own language is not acceptable.
Fans on tour should be welcomed with open arms and it is disappointing to hear about fans not being treated properly.

Its good to get a different perspective on an observation.

I cannot make excuses for those guys being rude. It should not happen. Apologies for that. Maybe they thought Jim Telfer was speaking Scottish Englsih and they started to talk to him in Afrikaans.

boksmashoffice

buck65 wrote: »

Yeah of all the teams in the world that I find it hard to like ar the Bokks, beating them in Croke Park a few years back after the Lions tour was special.
Smit is a pain in the hole the way he goes on at refs and is only on the field for that reason and Du Plessis standing over Brian O Driscoll threatening to punch him out? Classy guys.

Make your won judgements.

O'Driscoll did swing at Bismark. have a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcGyWqQNPBs

This will cheer you up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDB-2LCOgQk&feature=related

.ak

boksmashoffice wrote: »

Make your won judgements.

O'Driscoll did swing at Bismark. have a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcGyWqQNPBs

This will cheer you up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDB-2LCOgQk&feature=related

There's generally more than meets the eye with those kinda clips. That clip has done the rounds (re: O'Driscoll), but if you watch it from further back Bismark took exception to O'Driscoll clearing him out and threw him to the ground off the ball. O'Driscoll lashes out and Bismark stands over him with a clenched fist.

In the business, it's technically known as: A whole lot of nothing.
In

[Jackass]

I think people giving out about the disgusting eye gouging should consider the glass houses they live in.

Regarding the rivalry, it's there between all top nations (and we used to be one, believe it or not). I don't think the Irish v SA rivalry is anything more special than the Irish v NZ or Wales or England to be honest. Just general rivalry I think. It builds up over time with vrious incidents on lions tours and national tours I think. Take it as a compliment. The less people who like you, the better you're doing.

boksmashoffice

.ak wrote: »

There's generally more than meets the eye with those kinda clips. That clip has done the rounds (re: O'Driscoll), but if you watch it from further back Bismark took exception to O'Driscoll clearing him out and threw him to the ground off the ball. O'Driscoll lashes out and Bismark stands over him with a clenched fist.

In the business, it's technically known as: A whole lot of nothing.
In

I agree. I think Bismark standing over O'Driscoll was the 2nd test along with where Schalk had his moment. There was allot at stake for both teams. If the Lions lost that test match, they lost the series and if the Boks lost that match, The Lions would have had all the momentum going into the 3rd test and maybe even win the series. I think a common phrase that would have been used is '12 more years'. No South African player wanted that on their CV.

I would like to think we are not bad people. We play on the edge to get the best out of ourselves. We pride ourselves on our physicality. That's what we are known for. We are a rainbow nation, where even the pakistani's and Indians get on great (that is a rare thing)

There are many South Africans living in Ireland and other parts of the world that represent our country in a positive manner. You get a few that put us down. But there are 60 million odd of us.

The South Africans who play for the Irish provinces have done our country proud. I have not heard a bad word from any of my mates who support Ulster, Munster and Leinster.

There are many South African coaches at the rugby playing schools in Ireland.

There will be a few South Africans playing for Ireland in the future. Hopefully the niggle will be diluted.


Its amazing what you can learn from talking to other people.

Monty Burnz

boksmashoffice wrote: »

The South Africans who play for the Irish provinces have done our country proud.

+1

thebaz

in fairness , I would have thought New Zealand would be SA biggest rivalry - there were always rumours that South africa , didn't do the beer thing when they lost