Expectations...Great, or Ghastly?

Inari

Everyone has different expectations. They vary wildly depending on knowledge, education, experience and with budget. I have seen people complain about €15 springers not shooting very far, just the same as I have seen peoples' acceptance of €1,000 Inokatsu 1911's faults out of the box.

Is the difference just knowledge, or is it actual insanity?

What do you expect from your products? Do you do your research, see what problems there are, and actively weigh it all up, or dive in blind? Personally I look into things quite extensively, ask loads of questions, and generally know all of the faults (or rather 'potential' faults) of the product before buying it, and thus make an informed decision. I do the same thing in work when helping people choose between different products. Generally speaking most people like it, though I do have a habit of bombarding people with information (sorry!) as it makes them feel more at ease, as they are being made aware of potential pitfalls etc.

I can fully understand peoples annoyance with a product if they were unaware of any issues, and I do think that they have a point - realistically some of the products out there should be better than they are, or at least not have the problems that they do. That said, the old adage of caveat empor is absolutely critical in my eyes.

What do ye think? What do you expect from your airsoft guns and accessories?

Puding

accuracy

I'm generally aiming to complete a specific impression and my purchases are normally driven by this.

I do my research and normal external are my priority I can fix anything when it comes to internals and get the performance I want, but with the stuff I'm looking for you can not correct the externals in most cases. I willingly purchases aegs with known issues but i go in my my eyes open.

TBH it is all down to the individual, for me their is a massive difference between the vfc ak74m and the cyma ak74m but for other the cyma is perfectly fine.

Puding

Forgot to add, I normally believe strongly that you get what you pay for, a lot of people ask me why I bother to buy a lot of real steel items, well the answer is that in the long run it normal works out cheaper (had once friend who went though 4 or 5 clone weapon light, for half the price they could have got the the real thing.

A good example is my comtac headset, yes the cheap clone does work but the build quality and sound quality on the real thing is far superior ( not really surprising ), yes you can find exceptions to this but in general I will stand by this.

Stonewolf

I expect stuff to work, to be well made out of the right materials for the job, to be rugged enough for the uses to which they'll be put, to not suffer from mechanical or electrical faults on a frequent or even semi-frequent basis and to have performance in line with expectations and needs.

Not one of which requirements is in any way unreasonable for a medium-high quality airsoft device especially given that RS is in many cases cheaper than such devices.

Alas, I am frequently disappointed.

Lemming

Like Puding, I frequently err for accuracy and am very much a supporter of "you get what you pay for" although there are always exceptions to every 'norm'.

If a gun has a fault, I'll look at how manageable said fault is & what's involved in either maintaining - which may not push far beyond general maintenance anyway - , correcting, or avoiding said fault. Case in point, the G&P Stoner 63A has a known weakness in the stock where it connects with the main body. Solution? Don't put a sling on it - which I wouldn't have done anyway - and/or generally don't apply lots of pressure like leaning on the stock propped up against the ground, etc. Other guns - such as the Inokatsu m1911 - I cannot avoid the accuracy shortcomings (KW works CO2 mags) without seriously compromising performance so as much as I have lusted after one of these pistols, I am not prepared to spend that amount of money to "make do". It's all swings & roundabouts at the end of the day. There is no 'magic formula' that says I do x, y, or z, because of a, b, or c.

That said, I generally expect stuff to work to an acceptable level, and be reasonably reliable in doing so. Almost all of my guns have been so; with the exception of my AGM m4 GBBR, but I got what I paid for (peanuts) & wasn't expecting much anyway; I bought it as an experimental platform on which to learn by pulling it apart.

I am somewhat more harsh on views of my kit however (clothes, webbing, etc.); and am very selective about what I choose as a result. Very much "get what you pay for" territory again, and I expect it to take dogs abuse and keep on doing what I ask of it.

Inari

There is a huge price difference between airsoft and RS, so what I see a lot of is that people expect too much for too little. An RS Trijicon ACOG will run you back €1,000+ whereas the airsoft versions are €200 and below.

Comparatively two hundred euro is a lot of money in airsoft optic terms, but very very little in RS terms, and quality speaks for itself.

Personally speaking I look for quality externals for, like Puding & Lemming, I feel that internals are far easier to rectify (and cheaper too) than the externals. I don't have such a high detail requirement on most of my things, just overall quality and finish is what I'm looking for.

There is a huge difference between a €190 DBoys M4, and a €350 G&P M4. You can see and feel the difference instantly.

What I expect from a product is it to work (i.e. to fire at average range and ROF), to be made out of durable materials and to be in-line with either RS-spec, or at least the rest of the airsoft manufacturers so that there is a wealth of aftermarket parts/options available. Where I draw the line is on products that have no aftermarket support that just plain do not work. If you break the mold, and produce something original, for gods sake make it work!

Keegan

I think what really hit me was the ASG, VFC, APO ASW338 etc etc you know the one. 700 euro plus (not taking a dig at retailers) and I see on ASG's facebook page, we are aware of issues with the RIF, here's what you can do to resolve them.....I'm sorry what?
This is not a 140 euro L96 this is a 700 euro plus rifle and you expect me to fork out that amount cash and then open it up (clearly voiding any warranty) just to get it to work right, not upgrade to get better performance but it get it to work.....that there really ticked me off.

MerryDespot

I'm with Puding on this I have to say. To me I'd rather pay a little more for the aegs that are closest to the real steel counterparts - hence why I'm willing to stump up for VFC or LCT models over Cyma or others.

When it comes to tactical gear buying clone gear is a false economy. The UKtactical and real steel Russian kit that I've bought in the past while has stood up to some serious use and looks no worse off than the day it was purchased. On the other hand the first vest I had was a clone RICAS, which was starting to come apart after a few months of skirmishing.

Gatling

I Think I've been disappointed at some aspect or another with most of my airsoft buys most of the time its something minor others its lack of upgrade options, my ics Sig is a prime example all the right details ,trades are ok love the hand guard and pistol grip polymer ,until you get to the shiny black abs stock that prone to splits in the seams despite been well looked after its annoyed the hell out of me ,then look at the upgrade options rail system 120e before shipping and 6 - 50 rnd mags another 90+ euro for plastic mags and when its finished il be still annoyed with my shiny stock , you really do get what you pay for and yet every aeg /gbb /gbbr still only flings a .20 bb at 328fps I'd gladly pay for a airsoft version of a sharps rifle with built in coffee grinder-why I will be disappointed with my aeg or gbb but il have the coolest coffee grinder around

Arkslippy

I think you should buy in relation to what you are willing to put into it.

aegs - vfc and tm. The aeg you use is critical to the actual enjoyment you get from the game. if its not good quality and reliable, there is a good chance of either it failing on the day and having to leave early or being uncompetitive.

tac gear - Im hard on gear but I've been using the same swiss arms black ciras for two years playing and never had an issue. cheaper ones just come apart. so worth investing in a good vest.

clothing - decent quality - ripstop ones in us nightfighter and us woodland. rotate them around and don't wash too often, and they last.

pistols - avoid. always issues.

i always look for reviews and buy from trusted retailers.

OzCam

Apologies for going slightly off topic, but care of camo clothing was mentioned.

To avoid bleaching out camo gear, wash as infrequently as possible, at the lowest temperature setting (cold if available, 30C if not) and do not use detergents which contain optical brighteners. The reason should be obvious.

Unfortunately almost all of the leading brands do contain brighteners, and it's not always listed on the ingredients. The EcoVer brand cleaners do not contain brighteners. Just make sure to read the label properly, their products with the previous label design were hard to tell apart.

As you were...

Oh, I expect stuff to work, and to be reliable. As long as you're getting what you paid for you can't have too many complaints. It's when you pay out big money for something that doesn't work that you have a legitimate gripe.

Puding

To avoid bleaching out camo gear, wash as infrequently as possible, at the lowest temperature setting (cold if available, 30C if not) and do not use detergents which contain optical brighteners. The reason should be obvious.

and hear is me washing my gorka in diluted bleach to get that look

Puding

Not one of which requirements is in any way unreasonable for a medium-high quality airsoft device especially given that RS is in many cases cheaper than such devices.

im never disappointed, I assume they're going to break, to much exp3eriance of complicated mechanizem like this with multiple components made of different material to think any different

MerryDespot

OzCam wrote: »

Apologies for going slightly off topic, but care of camo clothing was mentioned.

To avoid bleaching out camo gear, wash as infrequently as possible, at the lowest temperature setting (cold if available, 30C if not) and do not use detergents which contain optical brighteners.

Or just wash on 30 degree wash without washing powder - its the lazy man solution to hand washing with cold water only - which is the best option

TheDoc

Depends on what I buy.

But for buying a "high end" brand I'm expecting Accuracy, durability and longevity.

I've bought clones that have outperformed high ends, and I've bought high ends that sit in a shed for months because they never work.
I normally buy a gun, then have to replace the hopup and barel to get anything resembling accuracy.

Its possibly the one product I've ever invested in where its a massive lottery, and I am, and have been, very reluctant to spend any money on airsoft guns.

It seems to be that if you don't know how to strip a gun and upgrade it yourself, or part with cash to get someone to do it for you, you just have to deal with an average performing AEG.

I play for performance, and in a competitive way, and for the money they cost I'd expect high performance.

As I've mentioned in other threads, what gets passed as an actual saleable product in this industry would have you shut down in another. I'm walking into some jokes here but take golf for example, another game I play, recently more then airsoft.

Everyone knows the brands and the quality associated with them, and everyone knows what brand can best cater for their needs. Non existent in our game.

Classic Army were for years the biggest pile of ****e, yet others would say they were great.
G&P were seemingly the end all of AEGs, so I parted with €500 for an AEG that didn't work for 11 months.
G&G were then the next top dog, and I bought one of their M4's and was very underwhelmed.
I got one of THE rarest AEG's in the business as a present. An original King Arms Troy M7A1, licenesed and stamped, one of 500 worldwide of the limited edition.
The thing didn't work properly for the best part of a year until Masada just rebuilt it.
I spent big bucks on a Co2 WE Scar and it was the biggest load of **** I've ever had.

I spent €150 on a JG G36 and it never gave me an ounce of trouble in two years.
My GF spent €180 on a Masada copy that I will always regret selling, it was incredible.


Now, after years, and A **** ton of work and MONEY, my G&P m16 and my Troy are working fine. Not what would be expected of rifles that cost €500 and €800 respectively.

It is always a constant struggle deciding on what to buy, what brand to go with. Reviews will tell you that a brand is great, then a retailer and a skirmisher will tell you its great. The G&P MOE M4 is a case in point. Hobby stock this, and I was tempted after it was essentially the rifle I was building. They hold it high in regard, and Fayer told me Sciops bought one and thought it was great.

Then a quick google has tons of piss poor review that the thing is a pile of ****e, and then a player at Red Barn told me to avoid at all costs, he had nothing but nightmares with his.

The above point, is that there is no constant. No one can hand on heart tell me a brand that is great. Cause I'll tell you why its not. Maybe I'm scared from working in the game for a few years, but I can never just go buy a rifle from a manafacturer, cause I'll always have this thing about a brand.

This is also a blatant spit at you get what you pay for, because simply put you dont. How can you tell me the €150 or whatever I paid for my JG is matching up to the €500 G&P that didn't work for nearly a year.

The problem is that as consumers people still accept the " a sure its a bad batch" and "A sure they are airosft guns" and all that ****e.

I havnt bought a new rifle in a while, but if I did and it had a problem, I'd be getting a full refund, as per my rights, and going with a different brand.

Inari

For me at least, I think airsoft guns are like cars. They are mechanical devices, whereas golf clubs are not. And that has a huge part to play.

Airsoft is also a niche sport, which means it inherently suffers 'small-town' syndrome. If one gun has had a problem, everyone and their dog knows "first hand" what the problem was, and what caused it. Another problem rife in airsoft is people 'tinkering' when they really should leave well alone - some people have the magic touch, and others just plain have poo-finger.

The amount of times guns have crossed my table from an angry customer that the gun just "stopped working suddenly" and you then point out to them that the body pins are in the wrong way around, and that they have clearly disassembled the gun is uncanny.

I still cannot disagree with "You get what you pay for" though, as Tokyo Marui are still one of, if not the most reliable brand out there. Their prices are steep, but they work, and they perform. But, they're plastic (well, most are - exceptions are their recoil series). Some people are not alright with that. Enter other options from stage left

Personally I think some people place too much expectations on a product, without fully realising what they are, and where the main market is. Whereas I also firmly believe that some people place too little expectations, and just accept huge faults with guns as "the way it is" - I understand both, and sympathise with the latter far more...but it's just a tough one to call.

I do subscribe to the philosophy of if you want something done, do it yourself. Only you know exactly what you're looking for, and the one sure fire way to not be disappointed is to build it yourself from scratch. Literally. Every single part sourced for perfection and symbiosis with the rest of the gun. How could any off the shelf product compete with that? Just look at MotoGP - there are production bikes, and prototype bikes and it's like watching two races at the one time...production don't stand a chance against the ones that have been built from scratch and tuned to bejaysus for the rider...just not going to happen. And even they, costing millions of euro each, still have their hiccoughs (electrical faults etc) - it's in every mechanical device...there is potential to go wrong

NakedDex

I expect a gun that performs adequately without requiring upgrades for accuracy, robustness, and/or reliability.

I have yet to lay a hand on that gun.

Puding

been thinking about this a little more, I think my expectations are rather grounded due to when I started airsoft, I first played when I was 15 - 16 in the uk when the standard retail aeg for the tm famas or ak47, if you wanted a metal aeg you needed to build it a lot of the time from a tm and after market parts

Airsoft was a hobby in the same way as model aircraft for example, I find a lot of people will extremely high expectations do not view airsoft as this sort of hobby they see it more as a sport in the way of golf and tennis for example.

I expect a gun that performs adequately without requiring upgrades for accuracy, robustness, and/or reliability.

I've had a few tbh, all tm and vfc ( tm p90 stands out for me )

TheDoc

Inari wrote: »

Personally I think some people place too much expectations on a product, without fully realising what they are, and where the main market is.

There is the misunderstanding that the plinker market is the biggest source of purchasing here in Ireland, and therefore issues with performance arn't a big deal.

These products are built for use and gameplay, most are not built for a collector or back garden plinker.

Dex has put it best.

I've was all up for the TM Scar, it looked exactly what I wanted. Had a test fire in RedBarn and it had range and accuracy.

But it had a little gimmicky recoil system that was pretty meh, the gun retails at €700+ and requires a whole new set of mags at €40 a pop.... no thanks

I'm personally working on my M4, all that's left is a tightbore barell, maybe a new hopup unit, and that's it. It was a sort of experiment I had, sick of paying high prices for what was inevitably mediocre performance.

And all I've really done is change the externals, nothing internally, just going to change the barell. I dont subscribe to the "if you want something done do it yourself" because simply put
A) I am no good with my hands
I couldnt be ****ed learning about it

That's what retailers and the likes are for. And really a gun should just be what I expect out of the box with no tinkering required.

I dont think anyone is disputing that a mechanical working device will of course hit snags simply based on the fact its mechanically operated. But after a lengthy amount of time. A gearbox is pretty simplistic when you compare against a MotoGP bike surely?

Maybe its just me, get a little urge every now and then to pick something up, then kinda ask why bother, there is nothing out there that is just high performance out of the box without me having to put effort in, and I'm not interested enough in the game at the moment to be taking rifles apart.

The_ChiefDUB

I just don't expect out of the box performance at all at this stage and I've pretty much abandoned the purchase of new AEGs because of this - although I am considering the purchase of a new CYMA AK thanks to some very good reports. In general though I simply cannot afford to pay the money for a new AEG and then shell out the extra dough needed to get it working competitively.
My first AEG was a KWA M4 and it's still my primary gun - cost me about €300 and was broken inside of 3 months thanks to the bits of metal from a drilled cylinder tearing the insides to pieces. Since then I would conservatively estimate that I've spent another €300 getting it to the point that it's at now - an absolute beaut of a piece of kit - sure it's a bit battered looking but it shoots like a dream and never lets me down. The only other new gun I bought was a G&G EBR - spent about €500 on it and another €200 trying to fix the issues that came with it. By the time it was firing nicely (and it really was firing wonderfully) - thanks to a hell of a lot of work being put in to it by Sean Cahill - my love affair with the thing was pretty much over. Since then I've just been buying second hand kit and either building on what was done by the previous owner or using them as project pieces. I can't see myself ever buying a brand new high end AEG again unless the reviews are universally outstanding or I come in to a whole load of money - both of which are pretty unrealistic expectations.

Stonewolf

Puding wrote: »

Airsoft was a hobby in the same way as model aircraft for example, I find a lot of people will extremely high expectations do not view airsoft as this sort of hobby they see it more as a sport in the way of golf and tennis for example.

I'm not sure I'd qualify as your average airsofter over here but I do approach the game as a hobby. One in which I get drenched wet, jump in ditches, crawl in the dirt, run into walls (I actually punched one in Copehill), drop stuff (intentionally or otherwise), catch things on branches, leave charged for days and other such abuses. At the end of it all I expect that when I spot an enemy I can bring the gun up and squeeze off two-three shots on semi to score a hit rather than needing to hose half of Leinster down first or spend 3 hours with a toolkit unbricking it.

I'm not looking for a competitive edge, I just want fit for purpose.

Danin

I think as you progress as an airsofter your expectations change.

The simple truth is that airsoft products are built to fail, it's a simply business acumen. I may be wrong but I'd say there is far more money made by these companies from required or upgrade parts than actual model sales. It's brilliant in it's simplicity, and appeals directly to the male of the species. My simple comparative to this would be mobile phones eventually the battery will begin to fail or have a lifespan of 2 hours and you are forced to "upgrade"

Let me explain, when your not actively gaming you can browse hundreds of websites with a multitude of rifles/pistols and accessories you can "collect" and everyone one of these same websites contain a huge array of parts promising better accuracy, higher build quality, more range, faster trigger response I could go on and on ...
I've seen €600 rifles fail after 2 days gaming, I've seen €700 rifles make half the range and accuracy of a clone straight out of the box and let's not get started on pistols.

There is always this slight bit of hesitation which only comes to you after these experiences to then spend large quantities of money on a high end rifle.

That said who here with the experience of some of the posters in this thread would say if they where to buy a new rifle would nearly automatically purchase an upgraded barrel and hupup rubber, sometimes before they've even played with it.

So the real question is why do the high end rifles command these exorbitant prices when very few of them deliver any real tangible quantifiable differences to their mid ranged counterparts.

War Machine 539

Been reading this since it started with some interest I must say!

My two cents on the subject comes from my own basis for a purchase. Practicality with regards to the sport. I am pragmatic by nature so my purchases have always been based on what I hear from people and reviews with regards to endurance of a product.

My first AEG was a JG G36C that I bought off Mark in Drogheda Airsoft. It was an old rental but it had a Camo job that I fell in love with and the AEG itself fired straight as an arrow. This thing as a rental no doubt had the living ****e kicked out of it but it just didn't die. It was light. And it was to this day the best piece of kit I have ever owned. That little AEG which was bruised and battered but just kept going has since become the benchmark for any kit I use.

But then my pragmatism can be superseded. I am picking up a SW M82 next week. The M82 has always been a dream gun for me. Can't justify the money for a Socom Gear. Too heavy, its essentially an M4 and I simply don't have that amount of cash. The Snow Wolf is cheap. Lighter by a good bit too, still not light but manageable. Sure the mag is too small, barrel is too long and I am probably going to have to do some work on the gearbox to get her the way I want but its my dream gun. Will it be better than the old G36C? In my heart of hearts I don't think so, but I know that.

I look for something that fits me. Very few things in life are exactly the way we like. M82s fit me just fine. Huge. Totally impractical which goes against my nature I know. But I am ready for that. Got to chase that silly little dream.

Moral of this incoherent ramble is research. Gambles rarely pay off.

Tigger

NakedDex wrote: »

I expect a gun that performs adequately without requiring upgrades for accuracy, robustness, and/or reliability.

I have yet to lay a hand on that gun.

jg g36c

gerrowadat

Same. I've never heard of a JG G36 being a junk gun for anyone. The things are made of iron. The KWA was the same for me, years of abuse and it's perfect.

Southern Dandy

i agree with gerrowdat kwa are rock solid imo, only thing changed was the hop rubber because its the stock one is rated 400fps+ other than that would not touch them internally, the external quality speaks for itself.

TheDoc

Southern Dandy wrote: »

i agree with gerrowdat kwa are rock solid imo, only thing changed was the hop rubber because its the stock one is rated 400fps+ other than that would not touch them internally, the external quality speaks for itself.

Gerrowadats post needs emphasis. He said G36.

The KWA M4s that were being sold lip ready were a heap of junk. They were anything but lip ready.

Had s verry common trait of the gearbox cracking. Masads fixed more then I could count and we didn't stock them for a good reason.

I wouldn't touch of kwa rifles.

Typically I tend go avoid Classic Army, KWA and Star.

Southern Dandy

TheDoc wrote: »

Gerrowadats post needs emphasis. He said G36.

The KWA M4s that were being sold lip ready were a heap of junk. They were anything but lip ready.

Had s verry common trait of the gearbox cracking. Masads fixed more then I could count and we didn't stock them for a good reason.

I wouldn't touch of kwa rifles.

Typically I tend go avoid Classic Army, KWA and Star.

He said G36 about the jing gong. I get ya now

Were they 2GX or 1GX gearboxes? 2GX are completely reinforced at the weakpoint. Were they poorly downgraded?

You can use 7.4v lipos no problem, but 11.1v on the other hand are a different story, I wouldn't bother my balls with 11.1v anyways your only asking for trouble unless your gearbox is heavily upgraded, if I wanted ROF id swap out the motor or put in high speed gears or both. KWA don't even recommend using 11.1v on there aegs with light springs.

Now for my on topic part of my post. You see that's it my reasoning for going with the KWA is because researched it to the point of ocd as I do with most of my purchases be it gear, pistols etc.

Like most brands of aeg, you do a bit of research and your guna find someone who will have something bad to say about the aeg you are thinking of buying, be it g&g, g&p, vfc etc I found some bad info on the KWA but hands down the good material outweighs the bad and I'm damn glad I went with that choice. Gears are incredible quality, no need for shimming, 9mm bearings, nice rof off the motor with a lipo, lovely external build quality ticked all my boxes anyways. Only gripe is the hopup chamber, and air nozzle being proprietary so if anything does happen I have to source a kwa part.

AirsoftEire.com

We get the question a lot, "whats the most reliable gun you have that will last me years". Kind of leaves me scratching my head these days, as airsoft quality can be heartbreaking from a retail point of view.

What i've learned over the last 6 years of selling virtually every brand out there is that there is absolutely no consistancy with quality at all. The manufacturers know well that the stuff is being shipped half way round the world and you'll never be knocking on their door complaining. They want the retailers to warrant all repairs, even on brand new gear, whilst offering puny maintenance kits to cover several pallets of guns.

I would say to all people getting into the sport to set their expectations at a low level. Even with €300+ AEGs, expect to have a sticky trigger switch, expect to have a blown fuse, expect to have power cables popping off your motor, expect to have a wobbly stock, expect your RIS handguard to have loose screws, expect your hop-up dial wheel to loose its position, expect to break your magazine's torsion spring to snap, expect a loose buffer spring screw, expect your motor height to be off, etc etc, even on brand new guns.

It's very frustrating to spend so much as a customer to have little niggly issues right of the box or only after a few weeks, especially when you expected better quality having spent a little more. But dealing with all these brands on a daily basis for so long, I can tell you it doesn't matter if its a G&P, VFC, CA, G&G, KA, CYMA etc etc, you are going to have to expect issues here and there. Yes, as a general rule, the more expensive brands have a lower return rate than the cheaper stuff, but not by much.

The only brand that really stands out for me are Marui AEGs and GBB pistols. They are expensive, they are plastic, but they are incredibly reliable. Treat them well, service them well and they last a long long time.

Steve

Tommyboy71

The ACM (IIRC) M14 I had a couple of years back cost me 130 yo-yos and it was the best AEG I have ever been fortunate to shoot. Great accuracy and range right out of the box. I never made any changes to it and people hated to see it being fielded. I regret the day I sold it.:(

I still have the CA MP5SD6 I bought years ago. It still runs and is my favourite in the collection. It cost me E330 but it did have its problems.

More expensive doesnt always mean better. That goes for everything in life.