Why The Marathon?

ecoli

Given that most people will be starting into the training as of next week thought a thread on the collective motivations would be fitting. Be it your 1st Marathon or your 100th what drives you to the run/walk the 26.2?

I think I do it because, of itself, it is an achievement that everyone respects. As well as teaching you to respect yourself.

Not sure if I explain that right. But was doing 5km and 10km runs, and it seemed like half the country was doing it, it was almost as if you had to be near the top finishers to distinguish yourself. It's like people wouldn't care, anyone can do that distance, they'd nearly ask 'did you win'...and it was kinda hard to explain that, for me, finishing in the top 20 to 25% was my aim. Whereas with a marathon, you know you are pushing your own body so hard that just doing it means that you respect yourself and your body a bit more, and others appreciate you for just getting it done. I like it when peoples eyes widen and they just say 'is it...isn't 26 MILES' and you get to say 'well just over it actually'.

Does any of that make sense? Does it sound very smug?

corny

Asked myself that a few times when you're out running a LSR with nothing better to think about. The best answer i came up with is because its tough. I love sports where good honest endeavour is required. You need plenty of that to run 26 miles at a decent clip.

Pisco Sour

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I do it because, of itself, it is an achievement that everyone respects. As well as teaching you to respect yourself.

Not sure if I explain that right. But was doing 5km and 10km runs, and it seemed like half the country was doing it, it was almost as if you had to be near the top finishers to distinguish yourself. It's like people wouldn't care, anyone can do that distance, they'd nearly ask 'did you win'...and it was kinda hard to explain that, for me, finishing in the top 20 to 25% was my aim. Whereas with a marathon, you know you are pushing your own body so hard that just doing it means that you respect yourself and your body a bit more, and others appreciate you for just getting it done. I like it when peoples eyes widen and they just say 'is it...isn't 26 MILES' and you get to say 'well just over it actually'.

Does any of that make sense? Does it sound very smug?

To be honest, that is probably the reason why I did a marathon. I think secretly we like the adulation of randommers. I don't believe it to be a good reason to do something, and I am far more proud of what I have done over the sprint events than my plod in Rotterdam, but I very much fell into that trap of seeking the admiration of others.

I guess in hindsight, the best reason to do the marathon is for self-respect, self-confidence and self-pride. Long after the acclaim of others faded I was left with a lot of internal pleasure from my marathon and I feel like I became a different person after it.

menoscemo

I enjoy the discipline and the mileage that training for a marathon/ultra marathon brings.
My times tend to come tumbling over all distance after a period of high mileage training. I never seem to get the same results when trining specifically for the lower distances. I think I enjoy the big mileage.

ger664

When you have a bad day its the one distance that determines really how much mental/physical strength you have to carry on and get to the finish.

seanynova

ecoli wrote: »

Given that most people will be starting into the training as of next week thought a thread on the collective motivations would be fitting. Be it your 1st Marathon or your 100th what drives you to the run/walk the 26.2?

id imagine most people will do it because they feel that its an impossible task...that when they first started running the thought of running a marathon was frightening, make them feel like they can do something others cant, sense of accomplishment etc.....

i probably started with the same feelings but it would be nice for that perception to change among the general public

because at the end of the day its not an impossible task, 100+ years olds can do it, really 'old ladies' can do it, obese/overweight people can do it, people that cant run for 1mile today can do it in the future.

but as conor74 pointed out the general public dont believe this and there is a certain 'awe' about the marathon.

i joined a gym last winter and after writing down 'running' as other sports in the application form, the instructor asked me 'what distance events am i training for?' i said 'a 5k'...her response was, 'well, you have to start somewhere'.....

Pisco Sour

seanynova wrote: »

i joined a gym last winter and after writing down 'running' as other sports in the application form, the instructor asked me 'what distance events am i training for?' i said 'a 5k'...her response was, 'well, you have to start somewhere'.....

:eek:

Oryx

I did it once to see if I could. It seemed to be a marker distance to achieve if you were a 'runner'.

If I do it again this year, it will be to see how much I can improve my time. Not competing against anyone else, just me.

I dont race any races to show anyone else how mega fantastic I am, because in all honesty, with my times, I'm not. I just like to see if I can do em.

BeepBeep67

It was easier to train for one and run one than try to explain for the rest of my life to my non running friends why I run but but haven't run a marathon.

kit3

ecoli wrote: »

Given that most people will be starting into the training as of next week thought a thread on the collective motivations would be fitting. Be it your 1st Marathon or your 100th what drives you to the run/walk the 26.2?

Motivation for doing my first one last year was simply to see if I could - if the legs would stand up to the mileage, if I could stay disciplined enough to do the training and get to the start line. Basically, a personal challenge, just for me. Enjoyed it so much I'm going again but this time I'm also competing with myself to do better than last year. On another level I think it's good for the kids to see that people can take on a challenge at any age (started running 3 yrs ago at 41) and follow it through. Have to say I had a great first marathon experience. I enjoyed the training as much as the event itself so have no hesitation in going again.

Dutchie

For me it was something i always wanted to do when i retired from my sport. I had represented Ireland in another sport for over 10 years and wanted to do the marathon. 10 years later I crossed the line at Merrion Square. The sense of personal achievement was immense. Taking into account my national titles, and international results, for some unexplainable reason Dublin city marathon eclipses them all (maybe its old age;))

I entered DCM 2010 in April that year, as soon as my CC details were confirmed I knew there was no backing out. After nearly failing to run 4miles that evening, i thought 'how am i going run over 6 times this distance!?'

But 16+ weeks of proper training, rest, physio, diet, equipment etc I finished 14 mins quicker than my target. It was the single most emotional moment in my life. The personal sense of satisfaction is immense and in my experience unmatchable.

Training for DCM 2012 starts on Monday.

Good luck to one and all.

walshb

I love doing a 5 k run 5-6 times a week to keep fit. I am a fairly decent runner and have been asked by people why don't I run the marathon. Why? I mean, what use is it to me to put all that effort in and to spend days and maybe weeks recovering. Maybe taking years off my life in the process. To say, "Look at me, I ran a marathon." Big deal. After a few minutes who's gonna' remember apart from me? I am confident with training I could run a 3 hrs 20 marathon. Just couldn't be arsed' doing it to feel wrecked after it.

walshb

seanynova wrote: »

id imagine most people will do it because they feel that its an impossible task...that when they first started running the thought of running a marathon was frightening, make them feel like they can do something others cant, sense of accomplishment etc.....

i probably started with the same feelings but it would be nice for that perception to change among the general public

because at the end of the day its not an impossible task, 100+ years olds can do it, really 'old ladies' can do it, obese/overweight people can do it, people that cant run for 1mile today can do it in the future.

but as conor74 pointed out the general public dont believe this and there is a certain 'awe' about the marathon.

i joined a gym last winter and after writing down 'running' as other sports in the application form, the instructor asked me 'what distance events am i training for?' i said 'a 5k'...her response was, 'well, you have to start somewhere'.....

Spot on. Far too many folks think the marathon is some mythical and impossible task. My arse. Now, to go sub 3 hrs for the average person is a great achievement, but other than that it's just a really long and boring day out.

Bugsy2000

Oryx wrote: »

I dont race any races to show anyone else how mega fantastic I am, because in all honesty, with my times, I'm not. I just like to see if I can do em.

Similar to that. And I would have thought a high number of runners are similar. I recently completed my first but it was purely to see if I could. When I started out with 5k's the next logical step is 8k, 10k, 10 mile etc. I've never really bothered about what people think of what I'm doing as most non runners often think a 5k is a crazy distance to put yourself through.

I've found it's the same with whatever I do. I always want to move up to the next step on the ladder. After 4 days into my first skiing holiday I was up on the hardest black slopes & asking the locals where the good, long testing routes were. I think I get bored easily & just want to move up to the next test.

RayCun

I started running with the couch 2 5k plan, and in that plan every week you run a little longer, a little further than the week before. After I ran my first 5k race, I kept the same attitude - "Okay, I can run 5k... can I run 5 miles?", and so on. The marathon was a natural endpoint for that. Following a marathon plan was a good way to get me to running 4/5 days a week and over 30 miles a week regularly, and that's a good base to have when training for any distance

Second marathon was a bit aimless, I was just repeating 2010 in 2011, and my motivation suffered for it.

Third marathon will be a sub-3 attempt.

TFBubendorfer

RayCun wrote: »

The marathon was a natural endpoint for that.

It doesn't have to be.

CJ1

I think it is a very personal experience, I only took up running about 3-4 years ago and joined a club shortly after. I did DCM in 2009 and it was definitely one of the best days of my life so far, second only to the birth of my baby. My wedding day would actually come in third place although I dearly love my OH.
It is the most amazing personal sense of achievement. I was extremely lucky that everything seemed to click for me on the day and I finished in a time I would only ever have dreamed of. I had put in huge time, training and effort. Long distance running is such a great way to clear your head and I often reminisce of my fitness levels coming up to marathon day.
I hope to experience them again some day!! The only downside for me is the thought that pls God when I finally get round to doing my next one I will enjoy it (even half as much).

b.harte

I ran my first marathon distance on the day of the cancelled Killarney lakes event. I had a training plan which said (in bold letters) that I had a marathon that day, so I ran one, on my own, on the back-roads around where I live. No tee-shirt, no medal and no people cheering me on.
It was one of the most rewarding things I had done in a long time.
A few close friends know I did it, so there isn't any adulation etc, what drove me was a desire to prove to myself that I could go from not being able to run 300mtrs to a marathon and beyond by applying myself.
People, to me at least, seem fixated on the time a marathon takes, no one has ever asked me what time I did for a 25km, for a 37.5km but mention "marathon" and they immediately want to know what time, tell them about a 45 or 50km and they think your mad.
It's the same with specific "goal" distances, 10km, 10 mile or a half-marathon.
I don't really get that, when I started running a 3km seemed a big deal, then a 5 and so on, each distance meant something to me, as a sense of my own achievements.
The difference as far as I see it is that the marathon has a significance to others as well, even those who don't run / jog / walk frequently and has an air of mysticism about it.

But, there is something fantastic about a proper marathon against a long run on my own or with a few training partners, I only ran 3 of the relay legs in cork but I had goosebumps and felt so alive, the atmosphere is infectious as a participant and equally so as a spectator at the finish line cheering my running buddy home, both of these are reason enough to run a marathon.
But the long solo efforts are rewarding in their own ways.

RayCun

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It doesn't have to be.

Vade retro satanus :pac:

I was coaching some couch 2 5k people during the week, so this was on my mind... they're going from 5 minute runs to 8 minute runs to 10 minute runs, and so on. At some point in that programme, something clicks mentally and you realise that you don't have to stop when you get tired or your legs start to ache, you can keep running if you want to (if maybe a bit slower). The marathon is the next mental roadblock, people build it up into a much greater challenge than it really is. But once you've run one you realise that yeah, you could go for another 8k or 13 miles or maybe even 24 miles. You just have to train properly, pace yourself right, and have confidence in yourself.

I'm not so eager to run Connemara, or Donadea, or Dingle because there isn't that challenge of "can I do it?" I know I can, so I don't have to. If/when I run one, it will be for a time not just to finish.

TFBubendorfer

RayCun wrote: »

Vade retro satanus :pac:

I'm not so eager to run Connemara, or Donadea, or Dingle because there isn't that challenge of "can I do it?" I know I can, so I don't have to. If/when I run one, it will be for a time not just to finish.

Connemara 2013 it is then

menoscemo

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Connemara 2013 it is then

We may finally get our race there Ray

Krusty_Clown

I've tried everything from the mile to a 63k ultra, and have loved them all (still some distances to try yet), but the marathon just calls to me. It whispers sweet nothings in my ear and crumbles my will, when my guard is down. It is my teacher and my mistress; my muse and my torment, my report card and my greatest critic.

Pisco Sour

Bugsy2000 wrote: »

Similar to that. And I would have thought a high number of runners are similar. I recently completed my first but it was purely to see if I could. When I started out with 5k's the next logical step is 8k, 10k, 10 mile etc. I've never really bothered about what people think of what I'm doing as most non runners often think a 5k is a crazy distance to put yourself through.

I've found it's the same with whatever I do. I always want to move up to the next step on the ladder. After 4 days into my first skiing holiday I was up on the hardest black slopes & asking the locals where the good, long testing routes were. I think I get bored easily & just want to move up to the next test.

Getting faster at a certain distance can also be the next logical step, the next test, next step on the ladder etc. In fact I don't see how going up in distance is a logical step at all. Most people who compete in athletics do so to improve and get faster.

It's fair enough if you are more interested in going longer, but it is NOT the next step on the ladder, it is simply a longer distance.

myflipflops

Aiming for one purely to get fit. The training to get in shape to run 26 miles at 7 minute pace is the near perfect way to lose weight and get back in good aerobic condition. At that point you are in a position to aim for other distances.

If I manage to get the first one ticked off, I will almost certainly do more but it will also be a kicking off point for some goals at shorter distances.

MrCreosote

The marathon has all the prestige among laypeople. When you step back and look at it, it's just another arbitrary distance. But I reckon it's caught on for lots of reasons.

It's got the founding myth. The "original runner" drops dead at the completion (although he was probable a hairy-legged ultrarunner)- hardcore.
It's psychologically and physiologically a big step up for most people from a 10k or half. Nutrition and so on becomes an extra factor.
Most people will need a decent block of training to do themselves justice. On the other hand the amount of traning doesn't need to totally dominate your life.
The 26mile course seems to fit well into most big world-renowned cities. London, Paris, New York, Berlin, Cork. Take your pick.

I've done one only. No desire to do another.

myflipflops

MrCreosote wrote: »

The marathon has all the prestige among laypeople. When you step back and look at it, it's just another arbitrary distance. But I reckon it's caught on for lots of reasons.

I think a big part of this is that the general public have no real idea what counts as a good performance. They do not know whether to be impressed by a 20 minute 5k time or a 15 minute 5k time.

They do know that 26.2 miles is a long distance to run so it is easy to be impressed. People simply judge on what they understand.

Head The Wall

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

It was easier to train for one and run one than try to explain for the rest of my life to my non running friends why I run but but haven't run a marathon.

Likewise, I kept getting asked this. I decided to hell with the half and full distance and finished a 49k trail ultra yesterday with 7,000 feet of climbing, mind you mine was the only hand in the air when the organiser asked who hadn't gone marathon distance before.

slowsteady

After 30 years as a couch potato watching sport and promising myself that 'one day' I would do a marathon I finally got it together and from practically nothing did the 2010 DCM after a 4 month programme - my very first race. Told no one I was doing it because, for me, it was personal, a challenge. Fear of failure was a big thing, could I do it? Was I able?

I remember the sense of acheivement as the pacers pushed me on at the end was special - I was wrecked, my body was wrecked, my legs couldn't move for days afterwards - but the memory stayed.

Last year, watching the pacers drift away as my legs cramped up was a different feeling, but that is the marathon. Just because you do it once doesn't give you any right or expectation the next time.

Bar the ultras, it is the only distance most reasonably fit people cannot run without a long period of preparation. There is no 'There is a marathon next week, I think I might do it' attitude, so it rightly gets a respect and appreciation from the public for what it is.

It is also a race for relative 'slowcoaches' like me who will never aspire to fast times in shorter races but can grind out something respectable over 26 miles.

Pisco Sour

slowsteady wrote: »

Bar the ultras, it is the only distance most reasonably fit people cannot run without a long period of preparation. There is no 'There is a marathon next week, I think I might do it' attitude, so it rightly gets a respect and appreciation from the public for what it is.

slowsteady

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I did say 'most':p. The exception that proves the rule.

Kurt Godel

slowsteady wrote: »

I did say 'most':p. The exception that proves the rule.

The Grimes lads are fitter, and have run to a higher standard, than 99% of the readership of this forum. But to follow on, I don't see why the marathon is so special, if time is no barrier, then most anyone can do it. In fact, I'd say there would be a higher attrition rate from a total beginner doing a 3000m steeplechase, than a marathon.

Pisco Sour

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The Grimes lads are fitter, and have run to a higher standard, than 99% of the readership of this forum. But to follow on, I don't see why the marathon is so special, if time is no barrier, then most anyone can do it. In fact, I'd say there would be a higher attrition rate from a total beginner doing a 3000m steeplechase, than a marathon.

Or a 110m Hurdles. If ya can hop over 10 of those gigantic things off no training without snotting yourself then fair pay to ya!

SnappyDresser

For me its about setting personal goals. I wanted to run a marathon as an "Everyman everest" and achieved that. Next it was about keeping fit and reaching 10 marathons. That is achieved, now it will be to run as many marathons as my age. Then it will be to try and reach 100 marathons. I aim to do this "As more people have climbed Mount Everest than have run 100 marathons". Thats the goals. Why? Because 'its there!':D

nerraw1111

Because it's an amazing experience. The massive support during DCM has to be experienced to be believed. Boring it is not. My time was terrible but it was one of the most memorable races I've ever ran.

Must be like a Sunday league player playing in a packed stadium. You don't care if you get hammered. Anyone can do it.

Pisco Sour

i008787 wrote: »

For me its about setting personal goals. I wanted to run a marathon as an "Everyman everest" and achieved that. Next it was about keeping fit and reaching 10 marathons. That is achieved, now it will be to run as many marathons as my age. Then it will be to try and reach 100 marathons. I aim to do this "As more people have climbed Mount Everest than have run 100 marathons". Thats the goals. Why? Because 'its there!':D

Absurd comparison, which is probably incorrect anyway.

Less people have climbed Everest 100 times than have run 100 marathons.

A marathon does not deserve to be described with the word Everest. There is nothing Everest about it. Millions of people do it every year.

RacoonQueen

Because I enjoy it and I enjoy training for it. Once you have the discipline to get the miles in it's fairly easy to get around the marathon and get straight back into training. Would love to give proper 5k or 10k training a shot, got sick the last time I tried doing a 10k specific training plan and didn't have time with a 6 week training plan to get back into it.

Don't give a flying what other people think of what I do. Do these things for me, if I found I enjoyed training for and running 5ks or 100ms as much as I do marathons, I'd do that instead. Other peoples approval means nothing. Donadea was relatively low key, in comparison to a big city marathon and was probably one of the most enjoyable events I've participated in.

couerdelion

My aim is to hit a certain weight for next years triathlon season and to finish this one in the best physical condition of my adult life. Last year I got beaten easily on the run by a club mate and that was down to his endurance from marathon training.

Also the threat of a marathon in October hanging over me means I'm less likely to miss the workouts when I just need to MTFU. It also means I'll stay hard at it for an extra two months than last year when I more or less stopped in September after Dublin City Tri.

Finally I'm doing it as another thing to tick off the list. No interest at the moment of ever doing more than one to be honest (Although it could be the stepping stone to an IM in a few years).

ThePiedPiper

My mother ran the 1983 Dublin marathon, so for my entire life, there was a finisher's plaque and finishline photo proudly displayed at home. When she declared she wanted to run the 2005 Dublin marathon, that was my initial reason to run.

Since then, it has been chasing fast times and trying to run all of the majors. The emotions I experience every single time I run a marathon are what take me back to it.

Running down the Champs-Elysee practically in tears, standing on the Verazano Bridge in NYC with 40,000 other runners, breaking down in tears under the finishing clock with 2.58 in Seville, standing within 20 metres of Haile at the start of the Berlin marathon when he went sub 2.04, Seeing Kipsang make the decisive break in London or just slogging it out on a solo effort in my local town with no support apart from my wife and mother. I love the marathon. No other distance comes close to delivering the range of emotions every time I do it.

EauRouge79

The Dublin marathon fell on my birthday 6yrs ago, so I said I would run the race as a birthday present to myself. I was becoming a fatty and has to do something about it.
The Marathon was my 1st ever race, never even ran a 5k before that. I trained pretty hard and it was an amazing experience.
Now I just love the changes that these races has brought to everything I do i.e diet/lifestyle/lack of alcohol/self confidence/other people putting you on a pedestal etc for your achievements is nice to.
Now its all about weekends away with my wife to see new cities and trying to run that sub 3hr marathon.
Its a far cry from being a pie chaser and spending the weekends in the pub.
I just feel lucky that I discovered running and the marathon experience is what attracts me most about the sport.

Mr Bloat

walshb wrote: »

I love doing a 5 k run 5-6 times a week to keep fit. I am a fairly decent runner and have been asked by people why don't I run the marathon. Why? I mean, what use is it to me to put all that effort in and to spend days and maybe weeks recovering. Maybe taking years off my life in the process. To say, "Look at me, I ran a marathon." Big deal. After a few minutes who's gonna' remember apart from me? I am confident with training I could run a 3 hrs 20 marathon. Just couldn't be arsed' doing it to feel wrecked after it.

Why would running a marathon take years off your life?

plodder

Mr Bloat wrote: »

Why would running a marathon take years off your life?

It's rubbish. 'What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger' is more true for the marathon than for anything. And even the risk of dying is grossly exaggerated as well. Crossing the street could take years off your life, if you want to look at it that way.

Younganne

To run a Marathon takes self disicpline, dedication, hard work, belief in oneself and a little/lot of help from family to facilitate our training schedule...but only i can run for me and thats why i do it, becasue i want to and i can. I take responsibility for my health & fitness and running helps me to do this.
I walked Dublin marathon in 2006 and this was far harder than running it in 2010 & 2011.....
Roll on Dublin Marathon for my 3rd running marathon and this time, i will be racing against myself for sub 4 attempt.

bonaparte2

.

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Absurd comparison, which is probably incorrect anyway.

There is nothing Everest about it. Millions of people do it every year.

The marathon can be a greater achievement than Everest. Everest is a much devalued currency.

Look at those moneyed toe rags with no climbing ability that are nannied up every year.

Plenty of people overcome much greater obstacles in their own lives to run a marathon .

AntiVirus

If this bloke can run a marathon then anyone can.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368351/400lb-champion-sumo-wrestler-fattest-person-history-complete-marathon.html

I don't believe running a marathon means much these days. The chubby bloke up at the bar has probably run one at some point although he may have taken 8 hours to do it, he's just as entitled to say he's done it just as much as anyone else here. :pac:

EDIT: Found him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm07iPOl4ko

AntiVirus

bonaparte2 wrote: »

.


The marathon can be a greater achievement than Everest. Everest is a much devalued currency.

Look at those moneyed toe rags with no climbing ability that are nannied up every year.

Plenty of people overcome much greater obstacles in their own lives to run a marathon .

Hmm, do you run many marathon's, have a look around next time

Pisco Sour

bonaparte2 wrote: »

.


The marathon can be a greater achievement than Everest. Everest is a much devalued currency.

Look at those moneyed toe rags with no climbing ability that are nannied up every year.

Plenty of people overcome much greater obstacles in their own lives to run a marathon .

I've read a lot of questionable posts on boards in my day but this one takes the Snickers! Congrats!

MrCreosote

bonaparte2 wrote: »

.


The marathon can be a greater achievement than Everest. Everest is a much devalued currency.

Look at those moneyed toe rags with no climbing ability that are nannied up every year.

Plenty of people overcome much greater obstacles in their own lives to run a marathon .

Quite true.

The hardest thing about climbing Everest these days is raising the 50,000 to pay for the guides to get you up.

Pisco Sour

MrCreosote wrote: »

Quite true.

The hardest thing about climbing Everest these days is raising the 50,000 to pay for the guides to get you up.

Ah yeh. Sure severely high altitude is no problem at all. Extreme sub zero conditions and high wind chill factor? Piece of cake. Dangerously steep terrain? No bother. Oxegen depravation? Sure who needs air!

A marathon is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Obese guys have done it. Grannies have done it. 10,000 people do it every single weekend in a random city in Europe. Millions do it each year.

A friend of mine has climbed Kilimanjaro, which is child’s play compared to Everest, and he said that it pissed all over the 4-5 marathons he has done in terms of difficulty.

Have either of you actually engaged in high altitude climbing? Have either of you ever even been at over 4000m?

Pure delusion on this thread.

AntiVirus

Pisco Sour wrote: »

Have either of you ever even been at over 4000m?

Pure delusion on this thread.

I'm guessing the nearest they've been to 4000m is sitting in an airplane :-D

MrCreosote

Everest is so far from the cutting edge of mountaineering these days it isn't funny. You clip into a fixed rope at base camp, and stay attached till the top. ALL the work, apart from putting one foot in front of the other, is done by your guides and porters.

Plenty of people of all ages have climbed Everest. The limiting factor is the cost, not the difficulty. I'd say if a marathon cost 50,000 per attempt the numbers competing might look different. The training and effort required for a sub-3 marathon would exceed that required for an ascent of Everest for most people.

Kili is tough because people don't acclimatise properly.