If you were head of the IRFU.....

stunmer

Some of this was mentioned in the NZ-Ireland thread

Why are NZ just so much better than us? How come they can consistently play such good rugby?

If you were head of the IRFU what would you change to try increase the standards of rugby in this country?

Please don't mention firing of the coach. This should mostly deal with changing the structure of rugby in this country.

Examples: tax breaks, weight limits instead of age limits, clubs vs schools etc

My small input (Shamelessly stolen from some newspaper article I read years ago):

I think it's mainly down to player numbers. We need more. Remove the Senior Cup in schools rugby. Change it to a league. Therefore good players from minnow schools get more exposure and hopefully get seen by scouts. Too often minnow schools get beaten in the first round and most of their players never play again. "The Senior Cup has so much history" is not an excuse to keep running.

liammur

stunmer wrote: »

Some of this was mentioned in the NZ-Ireland thread

Why are NZ just so much better than us? How come they can consistently play such good rugby?

If you were head of the IRFU what would you change to try increase the standards of rugby in this country?

Please don't mention firing of the coach. This should mostly deal with changing the structure of rugby in this country.

Examples: tax breaks, weight limits instead of age limits, clubs vs schools etc

My small input (Shamelessly stolen from some newspaper article I read years ago):

I think it's mainly down to player numbers. We need more. Remove the Senior Cup in schools rugby. Change it to a league. Therefore good players from minnow schools get more exposure and hopefully get seen by scouts. Too often minnow schools get beaten in the first round and most of their players never play again. "The Senior Cup has so much history" is not an excuse to keep running.

It's very hard for them. Just like it's hard for the FAI. GAA is the main sport in the country, and they really need to get rugby into the rural counties like Kerry etc.

Tox56

The FAI is struggling for player numbers?

rrpc

stunmer wrote: »

Some of this was mentioned in the NZ-Ireland thread

Why are NZ just so much better than us? How come they can consistently play such good rugby?

If you were head of the IRFU what would you change to try increase the standards of rugby in this country?

Please don't mention firing of the coach. This should mostly deal with changing the structure of rugby in this country.

What's wrong with the structure? We've had provincial success at the highest level of club rugby going back six or more years and have broadened that success to iinclude Ulster as well as Munster and Leinster.

Our U20s were a whisker away from finishing in the top 4 of the JWC and absolutely dominated in their last three matches as well as beating SA in their first pool match. The same SA that won the damn thing.

There's still a gap between AIL and provincial level, but we've seen a good few players taken directly from the AIL into provincial contracts. Leo Auva'a and Brian Murphy are two that spring to mind immediately.

Not a whole lot wrong there that I can see. What's happening at national level is a lot more problematic, but If we actually improved the coaching setup: e.g. actually had a backs coach, selected form players and properly developed our younger players instead of throwing them in during an injury crisis and dropping them as quickly, perhaps we might have a different outlook.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

The FAI is struggling for player numbers?

They get the low level stuff. Guys with no skill whatsover. Hence, clubs are going bust.

liammur

rrpc wrote: »

What's wrong with the structure? We've had provincial success at the highest level of club rugby going back six or more years and have broadened that success to iinclude Ulster as well as Munster and Leinster.

Our U20s were a whisker away from finishing in the top 4 of the JWC and absolutely dominated in their last three matches as well as beating SA in their first pool match. The same SA that won the damn thing.

There's still a gap between AIL and provincial level, but we've seen a good few players taken directly from the AIL into provincial contracts. Leo Auva'a and Brian Murphy are two that spring to mind immediately.

Not a whole lot wrong there that I can see. What's happening at national level is a lot more problematic, but If we actually improved the coaching setup: e.g. actually had a backs coach, selected form players and properly developed our younger players instead of throwing them in during an injury crisis and dropping them as quickly, perhaps we might have a different outlook.

And concentrate on skills, not just punting the ball as far as you can. R Kearney would win an olympic medal at that ffs.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

The FAI is struggling for player numbers?

They get the low level stuff. Guys with no skill whatsover. Hence, clubs are going bust.

What happens to the high level stuff? I'm not sure if you're talking about national or only club level here

rrpc

liammur wrote: »

And concentrate on skills, not just punting the ball as far as you can. R Kearney would win an olympic medal at that ffs.

Well he's not going to be accused of 'playing too much rugby in our own half'... :rolleyes:

Heroditas

Expand the number of CCROs. They're doing a fantastic job.
Changing the format of the Senior Cup will do nothing. Any decent players will progress to the academies regardless of how their school gets on in the cup. The key is unearthing the players who would otherwise be lost to the game.
Changing the cup to a league will achieve nothing. I went to a rugby school and we regularly got tanked by the likes of Rock or the Gick. A league wouldn't have changed that.
Also I dread to think about the hammering the big schools would hand out to the development schools.
The structure is being developed - CCROs help set up rugby where it hasn't been played and any good players are then in with a shout to try out for the underage provincial teams. From there, there is a clear path through to the Academies and hopefully the provincial sides. It's just going to take another few years.
People say we need more players. I disagree. We need more of the RIGHT players. Plenty of people are unsuitable for rugby. The CCRO's job, in a way, is to sniff out the young players who are suitable and fast-track them.

Chucky the tree

No point in changing the structure of the Senior Cup. That won't make any really difference, by that age 99% of the players either have the ball skills or they don't. New Zelanders don't learn their handling from the ages of 17, they do it from much younger. A much bigger emphaisis needs to be put on tip/TAG rugby. Hard to know how to do that though, a schools/club summer TAG league could be a start.

ormond lad

liammur wrote: »

It's very hard for them. Just like it's hard for the FAI. GAA is the main sport in the country, and they really need to get rugby into the rural counties like Kerry etc.

Its very hard to improve playing numbers in places like kerry with the ridiculous attitude of some GAA people. Ive heard plenty of storys of kids on west munster u16/17 sides being invited onto kerry minors etc as to entice them to stop playing rugby and when they do go anf stop playing rugby they are dropped from the football squad.
There is another kerry player now involved in pro rugby to add to JJ Hanrahan, Danny Barnes in Ultan Dillane who has just been signed to the connacht academy

What is needed is the schools cup structures to be adapted. Straight knock out is not the answer. kids in the bigger schools training for 5-6 months and playing 12-15 friendlies only to play 1 game in the main competition is not good enough.
GAA is the main sport but rugby has to use the international dimension that the GAA doesnt have as a means of promoting itself.

I would improve the structures of underage(youths) leagues. In Munster the past few seasons the top 16 teams have played in a pan munster league. the top teams need to be playing each other in competition more often. What are the other provinces doing to improve the structures of youths rugby? If we improve youths rugby we can add so much to our playing base.

Snickers Man

You could perhaps tweak the schools structure but it would only need a tweak. The current system of Senior Cup (Champions League) and Vinny Murray - in Leinster anyway (Europa League) is a pretty good one. It could always do with adaptation but no need to scrap it completely.

In my experience, and my young lad is in the Senior Cup Squad for one of those smaller schools that is unlikely ever to win it, there is an over emphasis on strength and conditioning at the expense of skill. He is training three times a week over the summer but I hardly think they touch a ball at all.

You can always put on more weight, but skills are something you have to be taught before you reach your late teens. It's obvious that the All Blacks have better handling skills than us. And that wasn't always the case.

There's nothing genetic about it. It's all to do with coaching and practice.

That's at raw material level. As regards the national structures, you've got to admit that Irish professional rugby is doing quite well. It's so successful that the English and French clubs want to change the rules (again) because they're so pissed off with Irish teams winning the Heineken Cup.

But dominating European Club rugby while getting tanked 60 - 0 by the All Blacks is no good for anyone. Not for our team, not for the kids coming up, not for the game in general and certainly not for those muppets in the South who are getting an insufferable superiority complex.

Thank God for the French.....

liammur

rrpc wrote: »

Well he's not going to be accused of 'playing too much rugby in our own half'... :rolleyes:

When I see a poster repeatedly using :rolleyes: or , let's just say it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

liammur

ormond lad wrote: »

Its very hard to improve playing numbers in places like kerry with the ridiculous attitude of some GAA people. Ive heard plenty of storys of kids on west munster u16/17 sides being invited onto kerry minors etc as to entice them to stop playing rugby and when they do go anf stop playing rugby they are dropped from the football squad.
There is another kerry player now involved in pro rugby to add to JJ Hanrahan, Danny Barnes in Ultan Dillane who has just been signed to the connacht academy

What is needed is the schools cup structures to be adapted. Straight knock out is not the answer. kids in the bigger schools training for 5-6 months and playing 12-15 friendlies only to play 1 game in the main competition is not good enough.
GAA is the main sport but rugby has to use the international dimension that the GAA doesnt have as a means of promoting itself.

I would improve the structures of underage(youths) leagues. In Munster the past few seasons the top 16 teams have played in a pan munster league. the top teams need to be playing each other in competition more often. What are the other provinces doing to improve the structures of youths rugby? If we improve youths rugby we can add so much to our playing base.

I know it must be difficult to get the game into places like Kerry, but yes, underage is where we need to target.

stunmer

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No point in changing the structure of the Senior Cup. That won't make any really difference, by that age 99% of the players either have the ball skills or they don't. New Zelanders don't learn their handling from the ages of 17, they do it from much younger. A much bigger emphaisis needs to be put on tip/TAG rugby. Hard to know how to do that though, a schools/club summer TAG league could be a start.

Yup, the senior cup thing was just something I noticed when I left school. My school was always thumped by Blackrock and other big rugby playing schools in the early stages and then all the players gave up rugby despite there being 2 or 3 players who maybe could have progressed to a higher level.

Is it going to make much of a significant difference? No, but it may keep a few more players in the game.

I agree about the skills issue. There definitely needs to be more work on skills at a younger age.

ormond lad

Heroditas wrote: »

Expand the number of CCROs. They're doing a fantastic job.
Changing the format of the Senior Cup will do nothing. Any decent players will progress to the academies regardless of how their school gets on in the cup. The key is unearthing the players who would otherwise be lost to the game.
Changing the cup to a league will achieve nothing. I went to a rugby school and we regularly got tanked by the likes of Rock or the Gick. A league wouldn't have changed that.
Also I dread to think about the hammering the big schools would hand out to the development schools.
The structure is being developed - CCROs help set up rugby where it hasn't been played and any good players are then in with a shout to try out for the underage provincial teams. From there, there is a clear path through to the Academies and hopefully the provincial sides. It's just going to take another few years.
People say we need more players. I disagree. We need more of the RIGHT players. Plenty of people are unsuitable for rugby. The CCRO's job, in a way, is to sniff out the young players who are suitable and fast-track them.

Changing the format of the senior cup will improve things. Half the kids in the schools cup only play 70 minutes in their main competition of the season which is ridiculous when you consider theyll have trained 5 months and played loads of friendlies before that.
Kids from the weaker schools have more opportunitys to impress in a league format as they have more games to show provincial representative/academy coaches what they can do on a pitch

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No point in changing the structure of the Senior Cup. That won't make any really difference, by that age 99% of the players either have the ball skills or they don't. New Zelanders don't learn their handling from the ages of 17, they do it from much younger. A much bigger emphaisis needs to be put on tip/TAG rugby. Hard to know how to do that though, a schools/club summer TAG league could be a start.

Place bigger emphasus on tip and tag through competitions organised and controlled by the branch dev officers that visit schools-primary and secondary.
Also change the structure of the junior cup.

mr_edge_to_you

I don't think there is much wrong with the structure to be fair. I understand that the numbers of young boys and girls playing rugby is quite high at the moment. Visit your local rugby club on a Saturday morning.

I think what is going wrong is (as someone said) happening at the highest level. If you consider the best players Ireland have had over the last decade or so were all in the very early 20s when they got their opportunities to play test level. Ireland under Kidney only bring play young players in when there is an injury to a "first 15 player". I think Cian Healy was the only young player who was given an opportunity. Drico, Rog, Stringer, Horgan, Darcy, Bowe, Horan, O''Connell all got the opportunity to start very young. Many of them all got thier first cap on the same day.

The clubs and provinces are feeding the system and doing a good job but we leave it too long before we introduce players to top level international test matches. Irelands "find of the season" is Donnacha Ryan who is (I think) in his late twenties. The players have be allowed develop into internationals. Cian Healy and Tommy Bowe are both great examples of developing world class players. 6 years ago we never though we'd be saying "we'll be lost without Tommy Bowe on the wing".

I'm not DKs biggest fan but is it possible that he has been asked to deliver match wins rather than player development. The IRFU have to allow the manager develop players in the right environment. A team of young lads against the Pacific Islanders every two years isn't development'

Amirani

liammur wrote: »

It's very hard for them. Just like it's hard for the FAI. GAA is the main sport in the country.

In terms of attendance yes, but it's not even close to being the main sport in terms of participation rates.

Heroditas

Changing the format of the senior cup will improve things. Half the kids in the schools cup only play 70 minutes in their main competition of the season which is ridiculous when you consider theyll have trained 5 months and played loads of friendlies before that.
Kids from the weaker schools have more opportunitys to impress in a league format as they have more games to show provincial representative/academy coaches what they can do on a pitch

A few extra games won't make players better. Most of their development on the core skills is done at that stage. What's needed is more competitions such as U19 leagues so the players have something to aim for after they leave school.
In Leinster, the branch has great difficulty setting up leagues to fill the gap between school age and senior. That needs to be addressed.
There's already leagues and development cups for weaker schools.
Putting those schools up against the top tier schools will achieve nothing apart from handing out some cricket score lines and a few serious injuries.
I wouldn't dream of letting the U16s or U18s in my club go up against a top school. They'd get destroyed. A development school would do no better.

liammur

We may also be a bit hard on ourselves, for instance, what are the scots and english doing?

I think NZ have just way more skillful and technically gifted players, a bit like the spanish are technically more gifted than we are at football.

Coburger

If it's a numbers thing then one thing that they could do is to actually look into making Connacht a proper team rather than just peddling off the players who aren't good enough to get into Leinster, Munster and Ulster.

I've no idea how contracts are discussed and run and who has a say in where players move but I think Fionn Car and Keatley would have got a lot more out of the season if they had stayed in Galway (getting some Heineken Cup action at least).

Also, players who are doing their trade aborad, be it in England or France should be given a chance of being picked for the national team. I understand why they do it but maybe say 5 players could be picked who are playing aborad. They're just shooting themselves in the foot by choosing players from three clubs.

TheKeenMachine

ormond lad wrote: »

Changing the format of the senior cup will improve things. Half the kids in the schools cup only play 70 minutes in their main competition of the season which is ridiculous when you consider theyll have trained 5 months and played loads of friendlies before that.
Kids from the weaker schools have more opportunitys to impress in a league format as they have more games to show provincial representative/academy coaches what they can do on a pitch.

Do you realise there's already a league that the "big 6" don't play in? Players in smaller schools have plenty of chances to showcase their talents here.

GerM

liammur wrote: »

I think NZ have just way more skillful and technically gifted players, a bit like the spanish are technically more gifted than we are at football.

They're not born more technically gifted. They are born into communities where the sport is the top game which plays a significant role in their upbringing via school and communities. The greatest Irish player played GAA and soccer until he was 12 and he is from a strong rugby family.

If we want to produce players with better skills, better instincts and better performances, we need to start at the bottom and I'm not sure that's possible. Rugby does not have the identity here that GAA does. Some people still actively reject the sport as a foreign game. It sounds silly but it will be near impossible for the game to permeate Irish society in the way it does elsewhere because of our cultural approach to sports. There will always be pockets in each area that love rugby and actively promote it but they're dwarfed by the level of support for GAA sports. How many of us were given a rugby ball at 6 years old in school? Not many I'd say. Now how many of us can remember having to do GAA drills up and down the yard for PE when we were 6?

rrpc

liammur wrote: »

When I see a poster repeatedly using :rolleyes: or , let's just say it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I am completely at a loss as to why you felt the need to make that comment.

Emoticons are there for a reson.

liammur

GerM wrote: »

They're not born more technically gifted. They are born into communities where the sport is the top game which plays a significant role in their upbringing via school and communities. The greatest Irish player played GAA and soccer until he was 12 and he is from a strong rugby family.

If we want to produce players with better skills, better instincts and better performances, we need to start at the bottom and I'm not sure that's possible. Rugby does not have the identity here that GAA does. Some people still actively reject the sport as a foreign game. It sounds silly but it will be near impossible for the game to permeate Irish society in the way it does elsewhere because of our cultural approach to sports. There will always be pockets in each area that love rugby and actively promote it but they're dwarfed by the level of support for GAA sports. How many of us were given a rugby ball at 6 years old in school? Not many I'd say. Now how many of us can remember having to do GAA drills up and down the yard for PE when we were 6?

I could not agree anymore with you on that one.

ormond lad

Heroditas wrote: »

A few extra games won't make players better. Most of their development on the core skills is done at that stage. What's needed is more competitions such as U19 leagues so the players have something to aim for after they leave school.
In Leinster, the branch has great difficulty setting up leagues to fill the gap between school age and senior. That needs to be addressed.
There's already leagues and development cups for weaker schools.
Putting those schools up against the top tier schools will achieve nothing apart from handing out some cricket score lines and a few serious injuries.
I wouldn't dream of letting the U16s or U18s in my club go up against a top school. They'd get destroyed. A development school would do no better.

More games for kids will help them improve. The thing the big schools have over youths/smaller school players is they train and play more often.
The kids who are in the top schools train 3 times a week from u14 level up and at senior level are doing at least 4 sessions a week at least and play at least 20+ games a year.
Most weaker schools will train once a week maybe twice but if they get more games they will improve tenfold.

Their is u19 competitions, the u19 grade is the same level as senior cup so quite a few kids who finish school are overage for u19 grade when they finish school and play either u21 or junior adult rugby.
The main youths age groups are now u17/19 now not u16/18.
Perhaps the provincial branches should do what the GAA have done in the harty cup etc and enter combined teams of thhe weaker schools into the senior cup for example offaly schools or wexford schools

GerM

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Do you realise there's already a league that the "big 6" don't play in? Players in smaller schools have plenty of chances to showcase their talents here.

They do but scouts etc. can only be in so many places at once and given the choice between a Blackrock vs Terenure semi final in the cup and a league match between two sides from the development cup, which will they attend? My former school has won the development cup a couple of times and has one or two lads in the back line who were Leinster medal winners in sprinting and on Dublin age grade GAA team. With the right training those sorts would have a great chance of making the academy but they don't exist because the circle is too small. The big schools do great work but there are players slipping through the net.

Of the 2008/09 Leinster academy, 6 players were released without ever making an appearance for Leinster. All of them were from well known rugby schools in Dublin that are competing in the senior cup (Monkstown being the stand out weakest). There's a strong case for saying that they made the academy based on the strength of their school's cup runs and subsequent selection for representative sides on the basis of that cup run. There had to be players out there who could have made more of an impact.

Heroditas

I have to say I just don't agree.
Development schools need more games against each other, not against the top sides. There's a veritable chasm between them and a few games will not bring those schools up to the required standard. The whole point is to give the CCROs the opportunity to spot decent players and then get them the coaching to bring them up to a decent standard.
The Leinster branch has huge difficulty getting enough teams into the likes of the U19 league.
However, here's something to ponder. Our underage lads have just finished 5th. This shows we have the talent at that age level.
The key is to ensure as many of these as possible develop into provincial players.
Maybe that's where the problem has previously been - keeping these lads focussed and giving them something to aim for. The academies should help. Previously they were just lost to booze and college!

EDIT: sorry - was aiming the post at Ormond Lad!

rrpc

GerM wrote: »

They do but scouts etc. can only be in so many places at once and given the choice between a Blackrock vs Terenure semi final in the cup and a league match between two sides from the development cup, which will they attend? My former school has won the development cup a couple of times and has one or two lads in the back line who were Leinster medal winners in sprinting and on Dublin age grade GAA team. With the right training those sorts would have a great chance of making the academy but they don't exist because the circle is too small. The big schools do great work but there are players slipping through the net.

Of the 2008/09 Leinster academy, 6 players were released without ever making an appearance for Leinster. All of them were from well known rugby schools in Dublin that are competing in the senior cup (Monkstown being the stand out weakest). There's a strong case for saying that they made the academy based on the strength of their school's cup runs and subsequent selection for representative sides on the basis of that cup run. There had to be players out there who could have made more of an impact.

I don't believe that's the case. There are some players who get hyped up at schools level, but generally if you ask any schools player who they think the best guys are at their level, it'll invariably be the ones who get picked up by the acadamies.

Some lads just don't develop into the promise they showed at schools level and some don't develop until later. It's the latter cohort that need to be looked for, but there's been some encouraging picks from AIL level that may cover these guys off.

irishbucsfan

I think the IRFU do a pretty good job in most areas tbh

ormond lad

Heroditas wrote: »

I have to say I just don't agree.
Development schools need more games against each other, not against the top sides. There's a veritable chasm between them and a few games will not bring those schools up to the required standard. The whole point is to give the CCROs the opportunity to spot decent players and then get them the coaching to bring them up to a decent standard.
The Leinster branch has huge difficulty getting enough teams into the likes of the U19 league.
However, here's something to ponder. Our underage lads have just finished 5th. This shows we have the talent at that age level.
The key is to ensure as many of these as possible develop into provincial players.
Maybe that's where the problem has previously been - keeping these lads focussed and giving them something to aim for. The academies should help. Previously they were just lost to booze and college!

Development schools need more games against each other as do the top schools. the top schools need these games in competition. The likes of Blackrock, Marys, Michaels, CBC Cork, Rockwell, Methody Belfast, munchins limerick etc all need to be playing more games against each other in competition not just meaningless friendlys ahead of the senior cups.
There was 24 or so teams in the 19s league in leinster this season. clubs have to be forced to combine with other local teams if they are struggling to field and they can look to this years all ireland u19 champions Shannon St Marys or the Roscrea and Birr rebels who made the Leinster final, for inspiration as to what clubs can do if they combine resources

GerM

rrpc wrote: »

I don't believe that's the case. There are some players who get hyped up at schools level, but generally if you ask any schools player who they think the best guys are at their level, it'll invariably be the ones who get picked up by the acadamies.

It will invariably be the ones who get picked up by the cameras. Lads aren't going to be clued in on players that have had no coverage. There's a circle of schools around that play their friendlies against each other and they compete in the cup against one another. They never play against or see a massive number of players. It makes no sense to think that the most talented players come from just a small number of schools. If Cian Healy had gone to his local school, St. Pauls, and not Belvo I have no doubt he wouldn't have been on the pitch today.Could probably apply the same to BOD. This applies to every province. The school circle is actually probably tighter outside of Leinster where it's most commented on.

CIARAN_BOYLE

In the long term we need to improve the underage game.

Step one would be to have a serious Tag or Tip competition that schools and clubs enter U12 or U13 teams and below in.

I'm not sure what else I would change underage possibly a repechage system in the Senior Cup.

One thing I would do at senior level is put a focus on the Wolfhounds. They need regular action and I would like to see a Wolfhounds team compete touring the Pacific Islands, North America or Eastern Europe in non Lions/WC years.

I'd also like to see the Ireland club international side that picks the best players from the AIL play some Tier 2 international teams. I think it would be great exposure for AIL players and that it could be a good stepping stone for AIL players to be picked up by provinces or by foreign teams.

Heroditas

ormond lad wrote: »

Development schools need more games against each other as do the top schools. the top schools need these games in competition. The likes of Blackrock, Marys, Michaels, CBC Cork, Rockwell, Methody Belfast, munchins limerick etc all need to be playing more games against each other in competition not just meaningless friendlys ahead of the senior cups.

How are more competitive games among the likes of Rock etc going to improve the situation?
The best players get selected for the academies regardless of how many competitive games they've played. Seems like a decent system and the likes if CBC etc have the league before Christmas.
If friendlies are meaningless, then the trips down to the SH for the likes of Ireland, England, Wales could equally be deemed a waste of time.

ormond lad

Heroditas wrote: »

How are more competitive games among the likes of Rock etc going to improve the situation?
The best players get selected for the academies regardless of how many competitive games they've played. Seems like a decent system and the likes if CBC etc have the league before Christmas.
If friendlies are meaningless, then the trips down to the SH for the likes of Ireland, England, Wales could equally be deemed a waste of time.

A New structure, that provides more games for all schools, would allow players from every school increased scope to showcase and develop their abilities in the highly pressurised environment that is the schools cup.
The best players do and dont get chosen to play at the higher levels. If all schools have more games in the cup proper each kid is(depending on the competition format) guaranteed 2-3 extra chances to impress academy/provincial staff
The leinster academy/development staff(and the other provinces) would have more chances to see the top schools players if the kids play at the minimum 2-3 games.
You could adapt the cup and still have the pre christmas qualifiers. the cup could start 2-3 weeks earlier which would give schools a minimum if 4-6 games unlike the current comp format.

profitius

Something I've been thinking about is splitting the provinces into separate regional teams at underage level. If one region/team has a surplus of talent in one area then some players go to another region/team etc.

Dividing them up based on playing numbers is the important point. That means, over time, each region should have roughly the same amount of players making the academy or sub academy. Its main benefit would be to highlight inequalities in the selection process.

DeDoc

we need to bite the bullet on the schools cup IMO. It has long been an end in itself and is detrimental (IMO) to the game and the players on a whole lot of levels, only some of which are anything to do with rugby. There are a huge amount of potentially quality rugby players who just fall through the cracks because they don't fit the mould at a particular stage - maybe they're 'too small', or they're late developers, or they have one or two big holes in their skill-base. Many others are outstanding at that level but are totally burnt out by the time they leave school. I can think of one particular case - a guy who played Ireland schools in 5th year and wanted to give up after it, more or less bullied by the teacher/coach into playing again in 6th year, and hasn't picked up a ball since.
I'd get rid of the Junior cup completely, and something much more like a league (with play-offs) for the senior sides.

ormond lad

profitius wrote: »

Something I've been thinking about is splitting the provinces into separate regional teams at underage level. If one region/team has a surplus of talent in one area then some players go to another region/team etc.

Dividing them up based on playing numbers is the important point. That means, over time, each region should have roughly the same amount of players making the academy or sub academy. Its main benefit would be to highlight inequalities in the selection process.

Leinster and Munster have regional sides for youths rugby. there is no transfer of players if there is a surplus of talent in an area. like if in munster east munster(tipp/waterford) have a surplus of 2nd rows and west munster(kerry) need a few 2nd rows. how would that work?
Dividing them up based on playing numbers is difficult as it would mean redrawing regional boundaries every so often and this would lead to difficulties at provincial level where the decisions are made.
The schools have a completely seperate and completely different selection process.

rrpc

GerM wrote: »

It will invariably be the ones who get picked up by the cameras. Lads aren't going to be clued in on players that have had no coverage. There's a circle of schools around that play their friendlies against each other and they compete in the cup against one another. They never play against or see a massive number of players. It makes no sense to think that the most talented players come from just a small number of schools. If Cian Healy had gone to his local school, St. Pauls, and not Belvo I have no doubt he wouldn't have been on the pitch today.Could probably apply the same to BOD. This applies to every province. The school circle is actually probably tighter outside of Leinster where it's most commented on.

I respectfully beg to differ. I've heard lads from Leinster talking up Connacht players and Munster players. Generally they've either played against them at club or schools level or know someone who has. I've heard of good prospects long before they hit the TV screens that way.

It's a small country and even smaller when you reduce it to rugby.

GerM

rrpc wrote: »

I respectfully beg to differ. I've heard lads from Leinster talking up Connacht players and Munster players. Generally they've either played against them at club or schools level or know someone who has. I've heard of good prospects long before they hit the TV screens that way.

It's a small country and even smaller when you reduce it to rugby.

Because these schools play against each other. Pre-season friendlies see PBC play Blackrock, Munchins play Garbally etc. It's still a small circle of the top schools that play one another regardless of their province. I know lads who went to Belvedere who didn't even know my school had a rugby team despite it only being a 30 minute drive away.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree!

ormond lad

rrpc wrote: »

I respectfully beg to differ. I've heard lads from Leinster talking up Connacht players and Munster players. Generally they've either played against them at club or schools level or know someone who has. I've heard of good prospects long before they hit the TV screens that way.

It's a small country and even smaller when you reduce it to rugby.

All the schools play games against schools from other provinces as well as schools from their own province before xmas every year.
For example belvederes fixtures before the cup included
Methoday Belfast, Pres Cork, RBAI, Rockwell, CBC Cork, Castletroy and Crescent
belvederecollege.ie/Sport/Rugby
Always laugh at the discussion of the schools friendlies and them being called pre season friendlies. they play 3-4 months of "pre season friendlies" for a max of 4 cup games that are played over the space of a month and a half

marc96

But dominating European Club rugby while getting tanked 60 - 0 by the All Blacks is no good for anyone. Not for our team, not for the kids coming up, not for the game in general and certainly not for those muppets in the South who are getting an insufferable superiority complex.

Well maybe if you muppets in the north knew how to play!!!!hows the result of the AB-IRE game bad for the game????we have a superiority complex cos we are all world champions the same as u the world champions at HURLING and GAA??not our fault u arent upto scratch in RUGBY.

edit..sorry lad tpop half of this reply is what a quote from someone on this forum.

TomLamp

If I was head of the IRFU I would sack DECLAN KIDNEY and his array of yes-men working with him i.e Les Kiss and Gert 'Tony Buckley will be a world Class Prop' Smal. These two are just as culpable.

Declan Kidney has been found out big time. He inherited EOS' team that was inches from the GS and made them play a terrible brand of rugby that just about got them over the line. Since then he has been FOUND out. Hes a nothing manager. Cant hack it at the very top. Relied for years on a great out of hand kicker and a monster pack at Munster. but he has no real ideas, no leadership, nothing. He is a sham and he wont have the decency to walk away himself. For all EOS faults at least he walked away. Will this Cork man walk away? Not a chance. Why oh why did they give him a contract before the world cup.

The IRFU can take fault for this as well. Someone needs to break up that group of jokers from the CEO to the media manager.

mikedragon32

TomLamp wrote: »

If I was head of the IRFU I would sack DECLAN KIDNEY and his array of yes-men working with him i.e Les Kiss and Gert 'Tony Buckley will be a world Class Prop' Smal. These two are just as culpable.

Declan Kidney has been found out big time. He inherited EOS' team that was inches from the GS and made them play a terrible brand of rugby that just about got them over the line. Since then he has been FOUND out. Hes a nothing manager. Cant hack it at the very top. Relied for years on a great out of hand kicker and a monster pack at Munster. but he has no real ideas, no leadership, nothing. He is a sham and he wont have the decency to walk away himself. For all EOS faults at least he walked away. Will this Cork man walk away? Not a chance. Why oh why did they give him a contract before the world cup.

The IRFU can take fault for this as well. Someone needs to break up that group of jokers from the CEO to the media manager.

Have a week off Tom. When you get back, read the charter and in particular the portions which deal with trolling and personal abuse.

Podge_irl

Pretty sure EOS didn't walk, he got fired (with a hefty compensation packet).

NIMAN

You have to remember that in NZ its rugby, rugby, rugby for the kids. Its their thing. ALL their focus is on rugby.

In Ireland, we have too many options to be as good as them, although I am sure we could adopt some of their systems and do things better. But we will still lag behind.

Tim Robbins

Things to improve rugby in Ireland:

1. Youths rugby needs a presitiguous tournement like the SCT / JCT is for schools. The Shane Horgan Cup and the likes are good but not prestiguous enough. There should be something to parallel the Towns Cup.

2. Every summer the IRFU should run "new to rugby" courses for people who have never played rugby - or haven't played in 5+ years. They train you up on the basics, tackling, rucking and then put in touch with a local club and team for your level. So if you some sh*t hot gaa player, body builder or even tag rugby player and just want to get into rugby there is a clear pathway.

3. But the biggest problem in Irish rugby is not results of international teams. It is the crazy behaviour of many rugby clubs (junior + senior) who are paying players, coaches, physios and will not be able to sustain their wage bills. First and foremost the IRFU *must* sort this out. No junior club should be allowed pay players. And there should be serious caps on coaches pay.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Tim Robbins wrote: »

3. But the biggest problem in Irish rugby is not results of international teams. It is the crazy behaviour of many rugby clubs (junior + senior) who are paying players, coaches, physios and will not be able to sustain their wage bills. First and foremost the IRFU *must* sort this out. No junior club should be allowed pay players. And there should be serious caps on coaches pay.

Agreed, someone was telling me that Stephen Keogh is paid as much as player/coach in shannon as he was paid in Leinster.

desertcircus

One huge change is needed: the IRFU needs to let go of the idea that winning individual games and preserving ranking is what matters. Winning tournaments is what really matters, and it's the IRFU's failure to recognise that which has given us a single Grand Slam in the professional era. The next coach needs to be given a contract and a target to achieve by the time the contract's up, and then left completely alone.

We've had an inordinate number of games this year, and virtually zero unforced changes have been made to the team in that time - first it was the World Cup warmups, then it was the World Cup, then the Six Nations are our bread and butter, then you don't mess around against New Zealand. As a result, we've been playing the same group of players again and again, and we have nothing to show for it - the policy has been an utter failure. Who did we beat this season? Australia, Scotland, Russia, the US, and Italy twice. In the debit section are multiple losses to Wales and England and three losses against New Zealand - the last by a frankly shameful score. The effort to preserve our ranking for the next World Cup has left us two bad games away from losing it.

This year has been a catastrophic failure on almost every single count, and the team has performed genuinely well for one game against Australia, one game against New Zealand, and forty minutes against France. And a huge factor in the failure of this season has been the desperate effort to preserve our ranking above all else. We've persisted with past-it players because of a terror of what playing tyros might cost us; we've persisted with a pathetically unambitious gameplan focused on preventing the other team from scoring rather than actually seeking to show what we might do; we've refused year after year to use a single game of a single Six Nations to play some new combinations and experiment and in three years it's won us absolutely nothing. I'd blame Kidney, but the near-carbon copy of EOS's last year in charge that's played out in the last twelve months indicates that the malaise runs deeper, and we need a great deal more than a new coach. Our entire attitude is based around trying to make it more likely that we'll play a quarter-final at the World Cup once every four years; even at that we're running no better than chance since professionalism.

The new plan:
1. Fire Kidney, or if it proves difficult, don't renew his contract.
2. Appoint Ruddock for the autumn series.
3. Make it clear to all applicants that the job is for three years, and their target is one Triple Crown in that time and no more.
4. Leave them the hell alone for three years, and give them complete control over everything to do with the national team.
5. No, seriously. Leave them the hell alone.

Podge_irl

While I do think there is an element of short-term thinking in the IRFU wrt results, I also have absolutely zero doubt that if Kidney was given free reign to target what games he wants and no pressure from above, he would have done everything exactly the bloody same.

ormond lad

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Things to improve rugby in Ireland:

1. Youths rugby needs a presitiguous tournement like the SCT / JCT is for schools. The Shane Horgan Cup and the likes are good but not prestiguous enough. There should be something to parallel the Towns Cup.

2. Every summer the IRFU should run "new to rugby" courses for people who have never played rugby - or haven't played in 5+ years. They train you up on the basics, tackling, rucking and then put in touch with a local club and team for your level. So if you some sh*t hot gaa player, body builder or even tag rugby player and just want to get into rugby there is a clear pathway.

3. But the biggest problem in Irish rugby is not results of international teams. It is the crazy behaviour of many rugby clubs (junior + senior) who are paying players, coaches, physios and will not be able to sustain their wage bills. First and foremost the IRFU *must* sort this out. No junior club should be allowed pay players. And there should be serious caps on coaches pay.

The Shane Horgan cup is for regional sides not for clubs and is fairly prestigious
The darcy cup is the leinster u19s clubs cup. the final of the u19 darcy cup should be played as the curtain raiser to the provincial towns cup every year and should be promoted more but thats up to the Leinster Youths Committee and the staff behind the domestic side of the leinster website to promote those games
We do need to entice more people into/back into the clubs either coaching/playing or both. Its up to club committees and branch ydos/cdos etc to do that
Weekly Tag rugby leagues need to be in every area of the country.
Dont stop paying players but severely restrict clubs that do pay players/are found during the season that they are paying players by points deductions etc