UUP and the Orange Order

Delancey

I note with interest that the leader of the UUP Mike Nesbitt is the first leader not to be a member of the Orange Order . For a party that was once described as '' constitutionally welded to the Orange Order '' surely this is a major departure. Nesbitt has also pledged to attend a Sinn Fein Ard Fheis.

The economic crisis in the Republic can hardly be an encouragement to people in the North ( irrespective of their community background ) to seek a United Ireland.

Is it possible that the UUP will seek to market itself to those Catholics who for whatever reason would rather stay within the UK ? The dilution of the Orange link would support this hypotheses.

Is this such a ludicrous idea ?

Dirk Gently

Delancey wrote: »

'' surely this is a major departure.

internally yes, it's a big deal but outside of the party looking in it's more a case of them very slowly becoming slightly less irrelevant. In the absence of sectarian violence, sectarian politics must adapt to survive.

Terrontress

Lady Sylvia Hermon was, for a long time, the only UUP MP and was never a member of the Orange Order.

The UUP also tried to tempt Tim Collins to stand for them, also not an Orangeman.

The link between the OO and the UUP is long gone.

Sunnyisland

The UUP is a pretty bad state Indeed, an opinion poll in the Belfast Telegraph last week put the UUP – at 11% – on its lowest-ever level of support,If it cant even get the support from its own community I would not be to hopeful of it getting catholic votes at all.It needs a whole new lift and policies to climb back up the political ladder ( as does the SDLP )

Patrick Cleburne

You don't have to be in the Order to be an Orangeman and Nesbitt is a good patriot.

Delancey

Terrontress wrote: »

The UUP also tried to tempt Tim Collins to stand for them, also not an Orangeman.

The link between the OO and the UUP is long gone.

It would have been interesting to see Collins get involved though I believe his priority was on developing his business interests after leaving the army.

Are you sure the OO and UUP link is gone ? To my knowledge a minimum number of seats on the UUP Executive are reserved for nominees of the Orange Order ?

bee_keeper

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

You don't have to be in the Order to be an Orangeman and Nesbitt is a good patriot.

id have thought he was a bit too liberal for the role , his election is a reflection of the irrelevance of the party

Fromthetrees

I hate the sectarian orange disorder that plagues this island. Stop the marching and anti-catholic thing and we can all try move on. Whenever I've been up north the whole thing is just mental and I feel sorry for my friends that have to live with it, a marching season? :eek:
Not my cup of tea, can't get my head around it, sorry for not really responding to the op.

I just hate the hate. :mad:

junder

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I hate the sectarian orange disorder that plagues this island. Stop the marching and anti-catholic thing and we can all try move on. Whenever I've been up north the whole thing is just mental and I feel sorry for my friends that have to live with it, a marching season? :eek:
Not my cup of tea, can't get my head around it, sorry for not really responding to the op.

I just hate the hate. :mad:

You hate the hate by being hateful

woodoo

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I just hate the hate. :mad:

I notice the drug dealers and gangsters of the loyalist persuasion are up to their old tricks in Carrickfergus in time for the marching season. They have been putting up flags outside a catholic school and church. Carrickfergus has a very small number of Catholics and its just cowardly of these unemployed wasters to be antagonising them.

All in the name of hate and bigotry. Right up the OO's street too (the non violent face of hate and bigotry).

I think OO numbers are falling and that can only be a good thing.

donegal_road

changing times when a former member of the OO and RUC decides to run for SF

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/newsletternew/billy-leonards-journey-from-the-orange-order-to-sinn-fein-mla-14570661.html

murphaph

Delancey wrote: »

Is this such a ludicrous idea ?

Not ludicrous at all I suppose. The UUP can be "the moderate party of union" that can market itself to non-sectarian unionsists, to people (of any religion) who simply believe that union with GB is in NI's best interests (and I believe it probably is in the best interests of NI for the forseeable future) and not because of any doctrine or dogma.

There must be a sizable number of catholics and non-protestants and indeed protestants who don't believe in extremism or sectarianism that support continued union. A party that represents them could and should do quite well.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I just hate the hate. :mad:

I notice the drug dealers and gangsters of the loyalist persuasion are up to their old tricks in Carrickfergus in time for the marching season. They have been putting up flags outside a catholic school and church. Carrickfergus has a very small number of Catholics and its just cowardly of these unemployed wasters to be antagonising them.

All in the name of hate and bigotry. Right up the OO's street too (the non violent face of hate and bigotry).

I think OO numbers are falling and that can only be a good thing.

Have you any evidence that the flags put up in carrick are anything to do with the orange order?

southsiderosie

murphaph wrote: »

There must be a sizable number of catholics and non-protestants and indeed protestants who don't believe in extremism or sectarianism that support continued union. A party that represents them could and should do quite well.

While I don't disagree that there is a likely pool of voters interested in unionism without sectarianism, is the UUP a party that can really play that role? I would think it might be better to wipe the slate clean and start a new party based on these principles - and one that has a clear policy agenda when it comes to the economy, local development, etc.

To be fair to the DUP, some of their newer members seem to represent a step in this direction, but I guess the same question arises: can they outrun their past?

junder

southsiderosie wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

There must be a sizable number of catholics and non-protestants and indeed protestants who don't believe in extremism or sectarianism that support continued union. A party that represents them could and should do quite well.

While I don't disagree that there is a likely pool of voters interested in unionism without sectarianism, is the UUP a party that can really play that role? I would think it might be better to wipe the slate clean and start a new party based on these principles - and one that has a clear policy agenda when it comes to the economy, local development, etc.

To be fair to the DUP, some of their newer members seem to represent a step in this direction, but I guess the same question arises: can they outrun their past?

To me that translates as 'the only good prods are the ones that do as we tell
Them' republicans like to use buzzwords like respect of parity of esteem but as a northern Irish Protestant I have never in my life see them live up to it. The orange order is not perfect but it's far from the demons republicans like to characterise them as. Are the GAA all terrorist supporting 'ira at play' enthusiasts, going by the stuff some of thier members get up to, that perception
Could be drawn

LEADING reconciliation campaigner Trevor Ringland has called on the GAA to make an official statement after IRA medals were handed to children at one of its clubs.

It was reported last week that the mother of an 11-year-old boy was angered after medals featuring IRA member Martin McCaughey were given out during an under-12 boys’ event at Galbally Pearses Club in Tyrone.

A spokesman for Tyrone Gaelic Athletic Association said: “If the mother has a comment, she should make it to Tyrone County offices. They would obviously look at it.”

A spokesman for the GAA’s Ulster Council said it “has no comment to make until we receive official notification from the individual involved”.

IRA men Dessie Grew and Martin McCaughey were shot dead by the SAS in Co Armagh in 1990. An inquest last month ruled that the SAS had used “reasonable force” and that the IRA men’s own actions had contributed to their deaths.

On Wednesday the News Letter reported DUP peer Lord Morrow as saying the medals “will horrify many Roman Catholics, never mind Protestants”. While some in the GAA “undoubtedly want to move forward”, this action has “brought shame on the entire organisation”, he said.

Mr Ringland, who leads the One Small Step campaign for reconciliation in Northern Ireland, said the issue should be addressed.

“Should the GAA make a public statement distancing themselves from this? I think they should,” he said. “But if they don’t I have no doubt the matter will be dealt with.

“The Ulster GAA Council is very concerned about inclusion and building relationships with others that have previously felt excluded. But like many other parts of society, there are people with extreme views who try to use every opportunity to promote their extreme opinions, and put a cloak of respectability around them.”

The son of an RUC officer and a former Ireland and Lions rugby player, Mr Ringland said he was attending a GAA final this weekend where he would raise his concerns.

“It is incumbent on society to highlight to our children what the IRA and loyalists actually did so that our children do not carry that hatred into the future,” he said.

“It is important we remember that republicans killed some 2,000 people during the Troubles, many of them nationalists. The IRA, supposedly protecting the nationalist community, only killed 34 loyalists. By contrast the much-demonised RUC only killed eight people in total.”

He added: “Many people use these things as an opportunity to knock the GAA because they don’t like the organisation. But we also need to remember the good work and community spirit in the rest of the GAA.”

The News Letter understands there are at least six competitions run in GAA clubs that are named after republicans. A Dungiven club is named after INLA member Kevin Lynch and GAA grounds in Fermanagh are named after IRA member Louie Lennard. The GAA had made no comment to the News Letter at the time of going to press.

getzls

Good to see the first non O.O. leader. Now we can look forward to the first leader of S.F. who was not in the I.R.A. :cool:

Sunnyisland

Junder what you posted here was off topic but it would imo make a good a thread/topic in its own right in this forum.

southsiderosie

junder wrote: »

To me that translates as 'the only good prods are the ones that do as we tell
Them' republicans like to use buzzwords like respect of parity of esteem but as a northern Irish Protestant I have never in my life see them live up to it. The orange order is not perfect but it's far from the demons republicans like to characterise them as. Are the GAA all terrorist supporting 'ira at play' enthusiasts, going by the stuff some of thier members get up to, that perception
Could be drawn

What does this have to do with my post?

Patrick Cleburne

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I hate the sectarian orange disorder that plagues this island. Stop the marching and anti-catholic thing and we can all try move on. Whenever I've been up north the whole thing is just mental and I feel sorry for my friends that have to live with it, a marching season? :eek:
Not my cup of tea, can't get my head around it, sorry for not really responding to the op.

I just hate the hate. :mad:

The marching season doesn't just revolve around the Orange Order. People don't seem to have a clue.

Sponge Bob

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

The marching season doesn't just revolve around the Orange Order. People don't seem to have a clue.

No, there are the Apprentice Boys and the Black Preceptory and they frequently feel the need to walk down the exact same roads as the Orange Order only on different days.

However the 100% OO<>UUP Parliamentary Party days are now well over and the UUP may no longer be perceived as the political wing of the OO in effect. They are a secular party now and considerable less conservative than they were.

20 Years ago at the end of the Molyneaux era I believe that every single UUP Parliamentarian elected to Stormont and Westminster was a member of the Orange Order before selection and after election, without exception. 70 years!!!!

The head of the Orange Order was also a UUP MP from 1982 to 1996 and was elected as a UUP MP 10 years after becoming head of the Orange Order.

I am unaware of the situation regarding their councillors from 1921 to 2000 and whether Orange Order membership was mandatory as it certainly seemed to be for their parliamentarians.

woodoo

junder wrote: »

Have you any evidence that the flags put up in carrick are anything to do with the orange order?

No they are put up by the unemployed and drug dealing loyalist paramilitaries.

junder

realies wrote: »

Junder what you posted here was off topic but it would imo make a good a thread/topic in its own right in this forum.

It's not of topic, it's completely relevant, the
Bulk of the posts on this thread are anti oo because of what people perceive it to be, I am merely countering that perception by showing how perceptions that are not always truthful can be created. Many in the republic perceive the oo a certain way because of how they are portrayed in the media. Many in my community see the GAA as the ira at play. This articule confirms that belief. Is this perception true? In part yes, but it's not the whole truth. It's the same with the oo.
As for the uup the special votes allocated to the oo in the uup actully allowed non uup members who were members of the oo ( ie dup members) a say in the direction the uup took. It's seems logical to want to close this loop hole

junder

This may be of relervance

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055531942?page=1#post_59716827

Delancey

The placing of Union Jacks or Tricolours on lamp posts in Norn Iron was eloquently described by my father as '' the human equivalent of dogs pissing against lamp posts ''

Patrick Cleburne

Sponge Bob wrote: »

No, there are the Apprentice Boys and the Black Preceptory and they frequently feel the need to walk down the exact same roads as the Orange Order only on different days.

However the 100% OO<>UUP Parliamentary Party days are now well over and the UUP may no longer be perceived as the political wing of the OO in effect. They are a secular party now and considerable less conservative than they were.

20 Years ago at the end of the Molyneaux era I believe that every single UUP Parliamentarian elected to Stormont and Westminster was a member of the Orange Order before selection and after election, without exception. 70 years!!!!

The head of the Orange Order was also a UUP MP from 1982 to 1996 and was elected as a UUP MP 10 years after becoming head of the Orange Order.

I am unaware of the situation regarding their councillors from 1921 to 2000 and whether Orange Order membership was mandatory as it certainly seemed to be for their parliamentarians.

Thousands and thousands of people all over Ulster are in marching bands which march during the marching season without the Orange Order and the ABOD. It is a cultural and Protestant tradition which has been going for hundreds of years. It is in the blood.

The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

Chuck Stone

Delancey wrote: »

The placing of Union Jacks or Tricolours on lamp posts in Norn Iron was eloquently described by my father as '' the human equivalent of dogs pissing against lamp posts ''

With some dogs being 'more equal' than others.

Sunnyisland

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Thousands and thousands of people all over Ulster are in marching bands which march during the marching season without the Orange Order and the ABOD. It is a cultural and Protestant tradition which has been going for hundreds of years. It is in the blood.

The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

Nice of you to acknowledge there is an Irish society keith

Sponge Bob

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Thousands and thousands of people all over Ulster are in marching bands which march during the marching season without the Orange Order and the ABOD. It is a cultural and Protestant tradition which has been going for hundreds of years. It is in the blood.

Right, I never heard of any band marching during the marching season save under the banners of a Loyal Order. New one on me. A link to an example of such a non loyal order march would elucidate what you mean.

The Black Preceptory I referred to above is seemingly known correctly as the "Imperial Grand Black Chapter of the British Commonwealth".

The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

The point I made, rather clearly I thought, is that the UUP is not synonomous with the Orange Order any more. I didn't say the Oriange Order is not synonomous with the Orange Order did I.

junder

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

Thousands and thousands of people all over Ulster are in marching bands which march during the marching season without the Orange Order and the ABOD. It is a cultural and Protestant tradition which has been going for hundreds of years. It is in the blood.

Right, I never heard of any band marching during the marching season save under the banners of a Loyal Order. New one on me. A link to an example of such a non loyal order march would elucidate what you mean.

The Black Preceptory I referred to above is seemingly known correctly as the "Imperial Grand Black Chapter of the British Commonwealth".

The Orange Order is part of Irish society and Ulster society. The UUP are perfectly entitled to be linked with them if they want. They aren't ashamed of their heritage.

The point I made, rather clearly I thought, is that the UUP is not synonomous with the Orange Order any more. I didn't say the Oriange Order is not synonomous with the Orange Order did I.

Erm, there are quite a few band parades in northern Ireland not linked to the loyal orders, band competitions, bands marking an important date in thier history etc etc. on a side note, my band were over in London last week parading in celebration of the queens jubilee. There was a band from donegal taking part as well, it was interesting when we passed thier irish registered coach festooned in union flags

Patrick Cleburne

junder wrote: »

Erm, there are quite a few band parades in northern Ireland not linked to the loyal orders, band competitions, bands marking an important date in thier history etc etc. on a side note, my band were over in London last week parading in celebration of the queens jubilee. There was a band from donegal taking part as well, it was interesting when we passed thier irish registered coach festooned in union flags

Yep. That is what I posted. People need to study and get the facts before even commenting on it because it seems pretty obvious some people don't have a clue.

Sponge Bob

junder wrote: »

my band were over in London last week parading in celebration of the queens jubilee.

Rattling London with a whole week of Blood and Thunder band competitions sounds rather a good idea. Many of the modern Ulster bands are not strictly Orange bands if I recall unlike the pre 1970 bands which were generally lodge affiliated.

But They are not UUP members either...I mean the bands...so can we get back to discussing the 'modern' UUP??