Ballymurphy Massacre, new developments

Fenian Army

The British government has told the families of 11 people killed by British troops in the case known as the Ballymurphy Massacre that there will be no independent investigation of the deaths.

The relatives criticised the decision of Northern Ireland Secretary of State Owen Paterson and pledged to continue their campaign.

The innocent civilians who died after being shot and beaten by members of the Parachute Regiment in 1971 included a mother-of-eight and a Catholic priest tending to the wounded.........

"Mr Paterson, in his letter, has stated that it 'would not be in the public interest' that an independent investigation be established," they said.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/british-government-ballymurphy-massacre-investigation-would-not-be-in-public-interest-556025.html

It's a disgrace to say that an investigation is "not in the public interest". After the report into Bloody Sunday was published Cameron said something along the lines of Bloody Sunday being an aberration and that overall British troops behaved exemplary...The British government seem determined to preserve this myth.

Here we have some months previously to Bloody Sunday another massacre by the same regiment of British troops of civilians and the relatives of these people don't get an investigation because its "not in the public interest"? Fcuking disgrace.

What needs to happen is a truth and reconciliation commission like they had in SA and an amnesty for all those people who come forward with the truth. At this stage most of the families, on all sides, just want the truth.

I don't think it will happen because the British govt have too much to cover-up, massacres like this and the extent of collusion also. But I hope it will

Six civilians were shot on 9 August, these were:
Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper (who had taken position at the nearby army base) while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Hugh Mullan (38), a Catholic priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.
Daniel Teggart (44), was shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.

One civilian was shot on 10 August, and another four were shot on 11 August, these were:
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.
John Laverty (20) and Joseph Corr (43) were shot at separate points at the Top of the Whiterock Road. Laverty was shot twice, once in the back and once in the back of the leg. Corr was shot multiple times and died of his injuries on the 27th of August.
John McKerr (49), shot while standing outside the Roman Catholic church, died of his injuries on 20 August.
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. As a result, McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.

If the past is to be put behind us and the two nations are to respect each other and be friends, be honest and mature then this type of carry on, cover-ups, refusing to release files on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings etc, cannot continue.

biko

OP moved from After Hours

gaffer91

An awful massacre, I wonder why it is so often overlooked. Would be nice for the families to get some closure on this issue.

However it is a bit rich for Fenian Army and the the rest if the shinners once they land to be complaining about these awful massacres but upon the mention of any of the brutal murders by the PIRA, such as Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, they are urging people to forget about it and stop living in the past. It is also highly unlikely that such posters would start a thread advocating an enquiry into allegations of Garda collusion with the IRA, leading me to believe that such threads are not motivated by any respect or affection for fellow human beings but just partisan nonsense about how their "side" had it worse.

Fenian Army

gaffer91 wrote: »

An awful massacre, I wonder why it is so often overlooked. Would be nice for the families to get some closure on this issue.

However it is a bit rich for Fenian Army and the the rest if the shinners once they land to be complaining about these awful massacres but upon the mention of any of the brutal murders by the PIRA, such as Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, they are urging people to forget about it and stop living in the past. It is also highly unlikely that such posters would start a thread advocating an enquiry into allegations of Garda collusion with the IRA, leading me to believe that such threads are not motivated by any respect or affection for fellow human beings but just partisan nonsense about how their "side" had it worse.

On the contrary I'm urging setting up a truth and reconciliation body to facilitate everyone on all sides or none getting the truth. I think at this stage everyone deserves the truth, whether its families of dead republicans, nationalists, loyalists, unionists RUC etc it doesn't matter. Steps should be taken to facilitate truth and reconciliation. But apparently that is "not in the public interest"

There was an investigation into Jerry McCabes killing, and a trial, and men jailed. There has been nothing of sort in this case and in many others.

The British have said that the people killed in Ballymurphy were armed republicans and that they were only returning fire. This is quite clearly a lie.

Its hardly up for debate that the nationalist community "had it worse" in the Orange state is it? Its historical fact and doesn't necessitate me or anyone else writing threads about it.

Chuck Stone

gaffer91 wrote: »

However it is a bit rich for Fenian Army and the the rest if the shinners once they land to be complaining about these awful massacres but upon the mention of any of the brutal murders by the PIRA, such as Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, they are urging people to forget about it and stop living in the past. It is also highly unlikely that such posters would start a thread advocating an enquiry into allegations of Garda collusion with the IRA, leading me to believe that such threads are not motivated by any respect or affection for fellow human beings but just partisan nonsense about how their "side" had it worse.

You 'Mc Cabed' the thread in the first reply. Is that a record?

Ironically I'd imagine loyalists and republicans would put up the least objection to a truth commission with Unionists, and the British and Irish establishments least receptive.

*Particularly the British who'd probably be implicated in facilitating loyalist death gangs and you can't be tarnishing 'brand Great Britain' over a few dead Irish people.

Patrick Cleburne

Well done Owen Paterson. Nothing would come of it. A complete waste of time and resources.

OS119

Chuck Stone wrote: »

....Ironically I'd imagine loyalists and republicans would put up the least objection to a truth commission with Unionists, and the British and Irish establishments least receptive...

i disagree - i don't think anyone involved would be wildly keen on a Truth and Reconciliation commission, but the fundamental difference between the other paties to the conflict and the Republicans is that none of the others have anything personally to lose.

in such a tribunal, David Cameron personally has nothing to fear, nor has Enda Kenny - i'm not however sure the same applies to Big Gerry or Wee Martin.

such an enquiry would be embarrassing (excruciating on occasions) to all sides (though probably least of all the IG), but at the end of it, nobody is going to be saying about Enda Kenny or David Cameron 'you killed my mother'. neither Gerry Adams or Martin McGuiness has that luxury.

the other factor is that the British government does not trust Republicanism to confess to its sins, even if everyone else does - so its not going to get involved in a 'you tell me your truth and i'll tell you mine' scenario with Republicanism because it does not believe that Republicanism will ever tell its nasty, grotty, politically embarrassing secrets.

no trust, no confession.

Fenian Army

Then why are those with the most to lose as you say, Gerry and Martin, Sinn Féin, the most vocal in calling for a commission?

Chuck Stone

OS119 wrote: »

the other factor is that the British government does not trust Republicanism to confess to its sins, even if everyone else does

Says who?

- so its not going to get involved in a 'you tell me your truth and i'll tell you mine' scenario with Republicanism because it does not believe that Republicanism will ever tell its nasty, grotty, politically embarrassing secrets

That's little more than a convenient smoke-screen for the nasty, grotty, politically embarrassing secrets of the British government and its proxies, imo.

junder

Fenian Army wrote: »

Then why are those with the most to lose as you say, Gerry and Martin, Sinn Féin, the most vocal in calling for a commission?

It's called a bluff

Patrick Cleburne

OS119 wrote: »

i disagree - i don't think anyone involved would be wildly keen on a Truth and Reconciliation commission, but the fundamental difference between the other paties to the conflict and the Republicans is that none of the others have anything personally to lose.

in such a tribunal, David Cameron personally has nothing to fear, nor has Enda Kenny - i'm not however sure the same applies to Big Gerry or Wee Martin.

such an enquiry would be embarrassing (excruciating on occasions) to all sides (though probably least of all the IG), but at the end of it, nobody is going to be saying about Enda Kenny or David Cameron 'you killed my mother'. neither Gerry Adams or Martin McGuiness has that luxury.

the other factor is that the British government does not trust Republicanism to confess to its sins, even if everyone else does - so its not going to get involved in a 'you tell me your truth and i'll tell you mine' scenario with Republicanism because it does not believe that Republicanism will ever tell its nasty, grotty, politically embarrassing secrets.

no trust, no confession.

Spot on. Would be absolutely embarrassing for Sinn Fein and its Republican aggression murder gangs butchering and burying people across the border.

OS119

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Says who?

me?

you have some examples of Republicanisms willingness to come clean about its grotty little secrets and name names?

no? thought perhaps not. you can claim thats nothing but a cunning ruse, but i'm afraid that from this side, your games are nothing more than a cunning ruse - so, there'll be no truth and reconcilliation commission because we don't trust you to tell the truth. you may have noticed that we've done the self-flaglelation thing over Bloody Sunday and rightly acceptted blame for our misdeed - if Republicanism was serious about Truth it might have done something similar over Bloody Friday, or Kingsmill, or half-a-hundred grotty little incidents.

oddly, they didn't - you might almost believe they were lying...

Chuck Stone

OS119 wrote: »

you can claim thats nothing but a cunning ruse, but i'm afraid that from this side, your games are nothing more than a cunning ruse - so, there'll be no truth and reconcilliation commission because we don't trust you to tell the truth.

My games?

Who's we?

you may have noticed that we've done the self-flaglelation thing over Bloody Sunday and rightly acceptted blame for our misdeed

The BSI was part of the peace settlement - it's not as if the British gov decided to suddenly become civilised. Admitting that the BA killed civilians is hardly self-flagellating. Remember, the families of those murdered on Bloody Sunday did not get anything resembling justice. Justice would have seen the killers locked up 40 years ago for indiscriminate murder. They'll never serve a day in prison for their crimes and they'll get to keep their government pensions.

-

if Republicanism was serious about Truth it might have done something similar over Bloody Friday, or Kingsmill, or half-a-hundred grotty little incidents.

Yes, I agree they should.

Delancey

There is a strong case to be be made for a type of Truth and Reconcilation commmission as in post-apartheid South Africa , sadly we will never see it - the British Government will not want it's dirty secrets 'outed ' nor will the paramilitaries from either side ( in spite of their public utterances ).

The Ballymurphy decision is disappointing but hardly surprising , a mechanism must be found other than the judicial inquiry model that Saville worked to for Bloody Sunday - 12 years and 200 million pounds to tell us what we pretty much already knew ?

Fenian Army

Its stuff like this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jun/18/northern-ireland-troubles-memo

They want to keep under wraps

Sponge Bob

I think Cameron menat that he would not foot the cost of a Ballumurphy enquiry on the scale of the Bloody Sunday enquiry which cost UK £200m. That would not be in the public interest.

There is nothing to stop an independent non state funded enquiry. Many of the key witnesses would be the same as the Bloody Sunday witnesses, namely those s******s ( bad bad word) 1 Para.

EDIT I have been warned that 1 Para are not s*****s despite the findings of the Saville enquiry. I withdraw that word without reservation and I wish to state that 1 Para were gentlemen and that their actions in shooting 8 civilians dead in Ballymurphy were "Gentlemanly".

I promise to continue to refer to 1 Para as Gentlemen and to their actions in shooting civilians as Gentlemanly in future. OK!!!!

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20101103103930/http://report.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/volume01/chapter003/#the-report

"3.70 None of the casualties shot by soldiers of Support Company was armed with a firearm or (with the probable exception of Gerald Donaghey) a bomb of any description. None was posing any threat of causing death or serious injury. In no case was any warning given before soldiers opened fire."

Chuck Stone

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is nothing to stop an independent non state funded enquiry. Many of the key witnesses would be the same as the Bloody Sunday witnesses, namely those scumbags 1 Para.

Brave men indeed shooting little girls in the back.

Sponge Bob

For the record again. 1 Para were Gentleman and they killed in a very Gentlemanly way!

Patrick Cleburne

Sponge Bob wrote: »

For the record again. 1 Para were Gentleman and they killed in a very Gentlemanly way!

And Kingsmill? Face it, most people have moved on and don't care. The ballymurphy residents should grieve in peace and move on.

Scofflaw

Sponge Bob wrote: »

For the record again. 1 Para were Gentleman and they killed in a very Gentlemanly way!

And it is now,indeed, on your record, as the trolling it is. You're very well on your way to a ban here, Sponge Bob - you know what you were being asked, and you've chosen to play silly buggers instead.

moderately,
Scofflaw

RMD

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

And Kingsmill? Face it, most people have moved on and don't care. The ballymurphy residents should grieve in peace and move on.

I'm not justifying the actions of either, but there's quite a difference in a massacre conducted by a state body in comparison to a massacre conducted by a paramilitary group with no state sanction. Kingsmill was a tit-for-tat retaliation attack for the Reavey & O'Dowd killings the night before, Ballymurphy on the other hand was a 3 day long event in response to no particular PIRA action.

whitelines

RMD wrote: »

I'm not justifying the actions of either, but there's quite a difference in a massacre conducted by a state body in comparison to a massacre conducted by a paramilitary group with no state sanction. Kingsmill was a tit-for-tat retaliation attack for the Reavey & O'Dowd killings the night before, Ballymurphy on the other hand was a 3 day long event in response to no particular PIRA action.

You mean in response to IRA actions in general?

Nodin

whitelines wrote: »

You mean in response to IRA actions in general?

In the sense that it was a classic colonial action - 'the natives are restless, go in hard and teach them a lesson, target men of fighting age'.

Patrick Cleburne

RMD wrote: »

I'm not justifying the actions of either, but there's quite a difference in a massacre conducted by a state body in comparison to a massacre conducted by a paramilitary group with no state sanction. Kingsmill was a tit-for-tat retaliation attack for the Reavey & O'Dowd killings the night before, Ballymurphy on the other hand was a 3 day long event in response to no particular PIRA action.

It was Republican aggression on the Ulster Protestant population. So I can use it as a comparison if I want.

RMD

Patrick Cleburne wrote: »

It was Republican aggression on the Ulster Protestant population. So I can use it as a comparison if I want.

Then what does that make Ballymurphy? British state aggression on the Catholic civilian population?

whitelines

Nodin wrote: »

In the sense that it was a classic colonial action - 'the natives are restless, go in hard and teach them a lesson, target men of fighting age'.

I might be wrong, but the bodies of IRA victims had already started to pile up by the time of this incident?

Patrick Cleburne

whitelines wrote: »

I might be wrong, but the bodies of IRA victims had already started to pile up by the time of this incident?

Yeah, across the border there was and is still a big pile of them buried. I will E Mail Gerry Adams and see what he has to say on this.

whitelines

RMD wrote: »

Then what does that make Ballymurphy? British state aggression on the Catholic civilian population?

The problem with the traditional Irish approach to fighting wars (ie without uniforms or openly displayed weapons) is that their opponents can't tell if someone is a mass murderer, mad bomber, celebrity author who was never in The IRA, local priest, schoolgirl, bin man, or God Knows what else.

The Irish generally should save their opprobrium for the men without uniforms who liked to hide behind the community they claimed to protect. If they do that, then who knows, maybe there'll never be any more unsavoury events involving The UK's armed forces and local 'Catholics' (innocent or otherwise).

MOD EDIT:
User banned.

Nodin

whitelines wrote: »

I might be wrong, but the bodies of IRA victims had already started to pile up by the time of this incident?

I'm struggling to see the relevance of that remark. In response to IRA activity, the British enacted the same kind of operation they did in the middle east or Africa - go in hard to teach them a lesson, targeting any male of fighting age.

Chuck Stone

whitelines wrote: »

The problem with the traditional Irish approach to fighting wars (ie without uniforms or openly displayed weapons) is that their opponents can't tell if someone is a mass murderer, mad bomber, celebrity author who was never in The IRA, local priest, schoolgirl, bin man, or God Knows what else.

Such drivel.

I say chaps, would you mind meeting us in the field after we've had tea for a firefight? We'll be the chaps in the green costumes and perhaps you could wear a different shade so we can identify and slaughter you like the native peoples we're used to.

You see it's awfully difficult to to tell the difference when you don't have dark skin like the Zulus or the Indians.

Bless.

southsiderosie

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