Experiencing death as an atheist

zenbuffy

Hi,

So, about 2 months ago, my dad died. Though he had cancer, his death happened much quicker than expected, and left our family (neighbours, friends, etc.) in shock. Afterwards, I thought a lot about my faith (or lack thereof), and about whether I might have been more comforted if I was a believer, or if I might feel more hopeless because I am not a believer, because I don't think I'll see dad in the afterlife, etc. I wrote a blog about it, and I'll link it at the bottom, but there's one or two relevant excerpts that I wanted to share. I'm wondering if anyone else has been in the same position, and if they thought about it themselves, and what they found.

...

On the morning of April 13th, when we called the hospital to check in as usual, the nurses told us that dad had deteriorated quite a lot overnight. We all went into the hospital, and spoke to the nurses, asking them to address the elephant in the room: was this it? They told us that he had deteriorated very sharply, and that they were not going to be able to cure the pneumonia either. We asked for an idea of time, and they guessed at a few days. About an hour and a half later, dad simply opened his eyes and stopped breathing.

The days that followed were difficult, but we were greatly helped by friends and neighbours (who were also dealing with another tragedy – the death of our friend and neighbour, who passed away about 30 minutes after my dad). The two funerals took place, on the 17th and 18th of April, and our community rallied together to support each other, and both families, in a way which makes me proud to be a part of the neighbourhood. And then, slowly, we tried to return to our lives.

In the weeks since, I have thought often about my own beliefs. As I’m not religious, and have no belief in an afterlife, there is no comfort for me in the idea that I will meet dad again when I die. I wondered whether, at a time like this, someone with no faith might feel hopeless or lonely, but that hasn’t been the case. In the deep sadness which has underpinned every action in the previous weeks, I have drawn comfort from friends and family, from the wonderful moments of happiness as we remembered dad in all of his grumpy, practical joking, leaving too early for everything, tv-hogging glory. I have been touched by realising how many people cared about my dad and my family, by seeing our very large local church filled to capacity and then some, by the constant hum of activity in our house as people came to see us and say goodbye to dad. I have found solace in all of the messages that I have received via twitter and facebook, from people who have simply been moved by dad’s passing.
...
In the past, it has been said to me that a critical thinking position will crumble when the issue is personal – i.e. when it is one’s own family member (or someone to whom you have a strong emotional connection) who is ill, rather than someone you’re reading about in an article. The past month has been one of the most emotionally charged and challenging periods of my life, and I believe, a fair test of this statement. Having tested the theory, I still don’t believe that having kids, experiencing death, or any other emotional upheaval will make me suddenly change the way I think, place less value on rational thought, or make me regret trusting conventional medicine. Or as I like to call it, medicine.

My dad taught me to think and stand up for myself, and made sure I knew that when something appeared to be too good to be true, that it probably was. Even though our lives are changed forever because dad is gone, I’m still me, and I still think the way I did before.

http://www.zenbuffy.com/2012/05/dad/

Dades

Sorry about your dad.

Though I'm no spring chicken, I've yet to have any close exposure to death. I don't expect it to make me "believe", but I don't expect my lack of belief to make it any easier, either. But I guess you never know what you'll think until it happens. I appreciate reading your take on the matter.

As long as my children survive me, I'm hoping I can handle anything else with some dignity.

Ghost Buster

zenbuffy wrote: »

Hi,

So, about 2 months ago, my dad died. Though he had cancer, his death happened much quicker than expected, and left our family (neighbours, friends, etc.) in shock. Afterwards, I thought a lot about my faith (or lack thereof), and about whether I might have been more comforted if I was a believer, or if I might feel more hopeless because I am not a believer, because I don't think I'll see dad in the afterlife, etc. I wrote a blog about it, and I'll link it at the bottom, but there's one or two relevant excerpts that I wanted to share. I'm wondering if anyone else has been in the same position, and if they thought about it themselves, and what they found.



http://www.zenbuffy.com/2012/05/dad/

So sorry about your dad. My Mother in law died under very very similar circumstances last year. Im an atheist, my wife who had a very strong bond with her mother is a wiccan as was her mother. Her mother had also done the "Count me Out" thing in preparation for her death!!!!
There is no particular after life belief in Wicca afaik other than the usual 'we all return to dust, fertilise the flowers etc'. At no time did i, catholic raised, My wife, Protestant raised, or my mother in law, catholic raised feel any urge to invoke God or have a little pray or such.

18AD

Same loss befell me when I was a twelve year old little atheist.

It never even crossed my mind that "going to heaven" was an option. And I dealt with it all just fine. Eventually.

Nothing will make the difficult feelings of losing someone "easier", unless you're denying those feelings, which effectively makes things worse/harder. Stick with it. Time is your friend.

Now that I think of it, there is some twisted reasoning behind thinking that someone "hasn't really died" in that it turns your emotions into irrationalities. Emotions aren't irrational, trust them. (Kept in check obviously )

Take care.

joseph brand

Sorry for the loss of your father OP.

I, would remind myself, that I carry my parents genes, and so do my children. Everything they have taught me, is distilled and passed down again. (They're not gone altogether)

When I go, I hope that I will have left a lasting (good) impression on the lives of others.

There are people out there who aren't too bothered when one or both their parents die. The rest of us are the lucky ones, although the loss cuts deeper.

Calibos

Normally when I'd read a thread and hear someone say, "I had a tear in my eye reading that", I can't but help myself think, "Oh gimme a break lads, its a heartwarming moving story alright but get a grip."

However, I have to admit, I had a little tear welling up reading that. Very moving tribute to your dad and thought provoking commentary. Its not like I've been there yet where recognition reminded me of a personal experience to make me a wee bit emotional. Not at all. Just a very well written thought provoking piece that evoked the emotion in and of itself.

I'd say your dad was proud of you for a million and one reasons as you can be rightly proud of him.

recedite

They say a little bit of you goes into your kids.
If that is so, then a little bit of your dad continues on.

endacl

Sorry for your loss OP.

Liamario

I've always felt, as has been mentioned already, that we never really die. It's all very cheesy, but our influences and genes live on in those people around us and our children.
You share a lot of your father's traits and your kids will do the same

vibe666

sorry for your loss OP, i hope when the time comes i'm able to cope with it as well as you seem to be. thinking forward to whenever that time comes for me, i honestly have no idea how i'll cope with such a loss. it's one of the hardest things we'll ever do in our lives, but almost everyone has to do it at some stage, unless they don't make it that far themselves and more or less everyone else who has gone through it seems to have gotten through to the other side.

i've always been of the opinion that you never get over great loss like that, but you do learn how to live with it and that must keep getting easier to do with enough time to learn to live with it.

at the end of the day, when it's something like that which we have no choice in, we have to figure out how to learn to accept it regardless.

i have a 10 month old son and i see so much of myself and my wife in him already, and i know that he is quite literally made of us and we will shape him and educate him and he'll grow into the product of our great influence on him and he'll hopefully pass some of that on to his own children and so on, so some part of us will effectively become immortal long after our own bodies are long dead.

NiallFH

Personally I have only ever lost one relative (A Grandparent). My parents are split up and I never really knew this grandparent but I went to the funeral, helped carry the coffin etc and it was emotional, I had some memories of him from when I was younger before my parents split and had a drink with him once or twice but that was it. I don't think it effected me as much as someone would normally be effected by loss of a family member due to not knowing him.

I remember talking to my Dad after the funeral and we were on the topic of religion and I had mentioned that I didnt believe in God (Dont see him often so he wouldnt know my beliefs). This seemed to upset him, not in a disappointment way but I think the idea that his Dad was just gone and there was no after life was upsetting for him.

Personally though I dont think it would bring me any comfort, I find some comfort in knowing that after you die there is nothing, no more thought, no more feeling, no after life. You won't be able to look back and regret anything and its encouragement to make the most of your time here.

CerebralCortex

Liamario wrote: »

I've always felt, as has been mentioned already, that we never really die. It's all very cheesy, but our influences and genes live on in those people around us and our children.
You share a lot of your father's traits and your kids will do the same

I personally think that's a load of nonsense. Sorry for your lose OP. I lost someone important in my life recently it's very cruel.

Liamario

Why is that a load of nonsense. We do share the traits of our parents and my son will share some of mine. Sure, you can say i'm being over sentimental, but our parents have influenced in one way or another and that will pass on to the next generation.

CerebralCortex

Liamario wrote: »

Why is that a load of nonsense. We do share the traits of our parents and my son will share some of mine. Sure, you can say i'm being over sentimental, but our parents have influenced in one way or another and that will pass on to the next generation.

Influence yes but to suggest it's in some sort of immortality is so weak. I'm am not my parents my parents are not me. I'd like to think of myself as a distinct being and not some servant to a blind process of death and rebirth. However the truth is I am part of that process unfortunately. Also the first chance I get I'm tampering with the genes my parents "gave" me. I find the idea of being some baby making machine kind of twisted and before you say anything I know it's a fringe and lonely view.

Liamario

Of course you're an individual. I never said that we are our parents, just that a part of them lives on in you in some form. Your parents have influenced you whether for good or bad in some way and their genes are in you.
It's a sentimental view on things, but whether you like it or not, it's still true.

endacl

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Liamario wrote: »

Why is that a load of nonsense. We do share the traits of our parents and my son will share some of mine. Sure, you can say i'm being over sentimental, but our parents have influenced in one way or another and that will pass on to the next generation.

Influence yes but to suggest it's in some sort of immortality is so weak. I'm am not my parents my parents are not me. I'd like to think of myself as a distinct being and not some servant to a blind process of death and rebirth. However the truth is I am part of that process unfortunately. Also the first chance I get I'm tampering with the genes my parents "gave" me. I find the idea of being some baby making machine kind of twisted and before you say anything I know it's a fringe and lonely view.

You sound quite intense. Don't have a baby just yet.

;-)

Liamario

I don't think I'd ever get comfort from religion. If I truly believed in an afterlife, I wouldn't be crying at a funeral.
Some people claim, that people cry because they are going to miss someone. But at the same time, people don't kill themselves when someone moves to another country- but have been known to do so when someone dies.

CerebralCortex

Liamario wrote: »

Of course you're an individual. I never said that we are our parents, just that a part of them lives on in you in some form. Your parents have influenced you whether for good or bad in some way and their genes are in you.
It's a sentimental view on things, but whether you like it or not, it's still true.

Yes of course, but it's in no way immortality(which isn't practically possible imho). Their genes aren't in me, the blueprint for my phenotype half of which comes from my father the other half from my mother.

Liamario

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes of course, but it's in no way immortality(which isn't practically possible imho). Their genes aren't in me, the blueprint for my phenotype half of which comes from my father the other half from my mother.

I'm not a geneticist (I know that our genes aren't our parents), I'm sure you know what I mean.

CerebralCortex

endacl wrote: »

You sound quite intense. Don't have a baby just yet.

;-)

It's not in the plan. My views are pretty much in line with those espoused by Eliezer Yudkowsky at the end of this video.

CerebralCortex

Liamario wrote: »

I'm not a geneticist (I know that our genes aren't our parents), I'm sure you know what I mean.

I don't really I don't see how having kids ameliorates the pain associated with possessing a body that can't be repaired.

endacl

Through how many generations would my genes have to be diluted before I become a homeopathic remedy?

Of course, the more diluted I become, the more effective. How many generations before I become an omnipresent and omnipotent god?

...?

CerebralCortex

endacl wrote: »

Through how many generations would my genes have to be diluted before I become a homeopathic remedy?

Of course, the more diluted I become, the more effective. How many generations before I become an omnipresent and omnipotent god?

...?

Are you asking me? I think you might be in the wrong forum dude.

endacl

CerebralCortex wrote: »

endacl wrote: »

Through how many generations would my genes have to be diluted before I become a homeopathic remedy?

Of course, the more diluted I become, the more effective. How many generations before I become an omnipresent and omnipotent god?

...?

Are you asking me? I think you might be in the wrong forum dude.

Wasn't asking you. Just thinking out loud. Chill.

Dades

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I don't really I don't see how having kids ameliorates the pain associated with possessing a body that can't be repaired.

It doesn't matter that you don't see it - as long as it's a concept that works for other people.

I fail to see how God existing creates a purpose in life - but for millions it apparently does.

zenbuffy

Thanks for all the replies. It's been a tough few weeks for us all, and we've had some difficult days (such as Father's Day, just last weekend), but we're coping. My mum is fairly religious, goes to mass every week, but I'm not sure that she's getting much comfort from the religious aspect of it.

Another thing I have been thinking about is how I perceived the funeral. I gave the eulogy, and my oldest brother spoke after me. The priest (who actually married my parents, and knew them both) gave a really nice post-communion reflection speech about my dad, which thankfully did not turn him into a "deathbed saint" but instead mentioned how he tried to do good for other people, and even acknowledged that he wasn't very religious. And it's these moments, the personal reflections, that have stood out. The up and down of standing, kneeling, and sitting to the backdrop of the murmur of prayers is barely part of that memory.

The funeral was an important part of saying goodbye to dad, but I don't think the prayer was an important part of the funeral. The eulogy, the words from my brother, the reflection from Hugh (the priest) are what I'll remember, not the mass or the prayers.

recedite

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm am not my parents my parents are not me. I'd like to think of myself as a distinct being and not some servant to a blind process of death and rebirth. However the truth is I am part of that process unfortunately. Also the first chance I get I'm tampering with the genes my parents "gave" me. I find the idea of being some baby making machine kind of twisted and before you say anything I know it's a fringe and lonely view.

Two questions for you;
1. Suppose you cloned yourself, and the clone lived as family with you for, say 18 years, picking up your way of doing things.
Would you say that the clone was you (a) not at all or (b) maybe in some small way.

2. The past is another country. The "you" of 10 years ago thought and acted somewhat differently to the way you would today. In 20 years time, you will be different again. If you get your hands on genetic modifying technology, you will be even more different. Which one is the real you?

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Their genes aren't in me,

Replica genes are in you. Have you read the selfish gene by the most Rev. Dawkins?

CerebralCortex

recedite wrote: »

Two questions for you;
1. Suppose you cloned yourself, and the clone lived as family with you for, say 18 years, picking up your way of doing things.
Would you say that the clone was you (a) not at all or (b) maybe in some small way.

Interesting, I would say in this situation would I have a wife? Would there be elements of her in me after 18 years? There would be a relationship and there would be a genetic similarity. It would be itself though, I'm not a distributed conciousness and even I were in the sense you seem to be arguing it seems of no consequence. I don't know how my parents experience anything, by proxy, of me unless I go talk to them or interact with them.

recedite wrote: »

2. The past is another country. The "you" of 10 years ago thought and acted somewhat differently to the way you would today. In 20 years time, you will be different again. If you get your hands on genetic modifying technology, you will be even more different. Which one is the real you?

There might be something in that, however can there be anything said for the continuity of experience? There is no concious continuity between my parents and I. I have none of their experiences.

recedite wrote: »

Replica genes are in you.

No not replicas not at all my genotype is a mix of both my parents not a replica of either.

recedite wrote: »

Have you read the selfish gene by the most Rev. Dawkins?

Yes indeed great book.

Zillah

I've never seen someone so messed up as a person trying to integrate their belief in God and the afterlife with the fact that God just let someone they love die. The sort of hopeless, futile "whyyyy?" questions make me feel a little sick. Sometimes they get angry at God, sometimes they become despondent, more often than not, tragically, they'll try, in a glassy-eyed "not really buying it" sort of way, to convince themselves that it is all part of the mysteriousness of God. This is the line the clergy trot out the most, because despite being the patrons of this absurdity, they're still usually smart and educated enough to realise that there does seem to be some sort of contradiction between a loving, benevolent and all-powerful God and the undignified nightmare of dying from cancer or motor neuron disease. The descendants of this line of thinking of course are the old "everything happens for a reason", the nauseating "I don't believe in coincidences" and the vapidly New Age "kharma" which, incidentally, bears little resemblance to the actual concept of kharma.

This is all a rather rambling path to my conclusion: Reality doesn't care about us and that is just too difficult for most people to accept, so they create a wide variety of half-baked beliefs to cushion the blow, which, sadly, are often counter-productive.

My reaction to death has been blessedly clear of such struggles. Things happen, sometimes those things are bad for me, or for you. That doesn't mean the grief goes away, but it does mean I am unburdened of the need to integrate this stark-reality-wake-up-call with any magic-happy worldviews.

recedite

CerebralCortex wrote: »

in this situation would I have a wife? Would there be elements of her in me after 18 years? There would be a relationship and there would be a genetic similarity.

No, that is not relevant to the question of cloning. Nor would any wife need to be genetically similar, except from the point of view of being a human.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No not replicas not at all my genotype is a mix of both my parents not a replica of either.

Yes but your genotype is created by your genes which are all replicas of genes your parents possessed (with the possible exception of one or two new mutant genes, possibly arising as a result of your being conceived in a radioactive environment or some such place )

CerebralCortex

recedite wrote: »

No, that is not relevant to the question of cloning. Nor would any wife need to be genetically similar, except from the point of view of being a human.

Okay, a clone would have my genes but it wouldn't be me.

recedite wrote: »

Yes but your genotype is created by your genes which are all replicas of genes your parents possessed (with the possible exception of one or two new mutant genes, possibly arising as a result of your being conceived in a radioactive environment or some such place )

X-men style? I wish. Are you confusing alleles with genes. When I say genotype I mean collection of genes. I would agree I have copies of my parents alleles yes but you probably have them too.

Zillah

Shut up about genes.

Dades

Eh, no. Talk about genes if you want and ignore Zillah.

Turtwig

Dades wrote: »

. . .ignore Zillah.

And MOD saw that it was good?

recedite

In theory a person could be cloned in the few hours after death, before the cells degraded. The clone wouldn't be the same person though; more of twin/offspring.
If a baby was dying, it gets more complicated, in the sense that the nurture side of things has yet to happen. If the genetic nature of the baby could be reproduced, the parents could rear a cloned version in more or less the same times and situation as the unfortunate donor baby would have been reared.

In this video, you can see a human clone being initiated, the idea being to provide spare parts for a guy with spinal injuries (the cells don't last long though) and an Irish couple talk about whether they would clone their sick child, if the choice was available.

Azure_sky

I'd hope and beg for proof of a benevolent God. Atheism is just a rationale conclusion for me, it's not a lifestyle nor a badge of intellectual honour.
To be honest I hope the pinko, hippy liberal God of the New Testament exists. I find atheism pretty damn depressing, of course that does not alter it's truth value.

CerebralCortex

Azure_sky wrote: »

I'd hope and beg for proof of a benevolent God. Atheism is just a rationale conclusion for me, it's not a lifestyle nor a badge of intellectual honour.
To be honest I hope the pinko, hippy liberal God of the New Testament exists. I find atheism pretty damn depressing, of course that does not alter it's truth value.

Really I'd rather not exist.

Ronomono

Sorry about your father.

To be honest, I am not really afraid or even thinking about what death is like, or what may happen after. I am an athiest. But I always thought Reincarnation was a nice thing to believe in, if anything.
But either way, the dead do live on through the people they leave behind. So no matter where they go after they go, they will be remembered by the living. That's all the Ancient Greeks wanted from life.
And as for - "and I still think the way I did before. " - Death happens. It happens to almost everything. You should never change your views because of it. Those views are one of the things that make you who you are.

CerebralCortex

Ronomono wrote: »

Sorry about your father.

To be honest, I am not really afraid or even thinking about what death is like, or what may happen after. I am an athiest. But I always thought Reincarnation was a nice thing to believe in, if anything.
But either way, the dead do live on through the people they leave behind. So no matter where they go after they go, they will be remembered by the living. That's all the Ancient Greeks wanted from life.
And as for - "and I still think the way I did before. " - Death happens. It happens to almost everything. You should never change your views because of it. Those views are one of the things that make you who you are.

No they clearly don't.

Ronomono

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No they clearly don't.

How do you mean?
I don't mean literally.
I meant that the living remember the dead....

CerebralCortex

Ronomono wrote: »

How do you mean?
I don't mean literally.
I meant that the living remember the dead....

Then why not just say that?

Sonics2k

Stop arguing for the sake of it Cerebral :P

CerebralCortex

Sonics2k wrote: »

Stop arguing for the sake of it Cerebral :P

I maybe, but death is a subject where atheists become annoyingly sentimental and irrational. It's tiresome, so I'm venting. Apologies.

robindch

Sonics2k wrote: »

Stop arguing for the sake of it [...]

On an internet forum? :rolleyes:

Ronomono

I was being kinda cheesy :P But just putting my views across. My views just happen to sound like they're from a bad 1980s film or something :P