Hand-over of Catholic schools to be revealed

Delirium

Hand-over of Catholic schools to be revealed

Details will also emerge of how denominational schools in smaller communities will be expected to cater for children of other faiths, as more than 95% of the country’s 3,300 primary schools remain in the control of religious patrons, including 90% where the Catholic bishop is the patron.

This will most likely involve changes to the law to uphold the rights of pupils at schools with religious patrons if they belong to a different faith, or none. There could also be moves to remove the legal entitlement of schools to give preference to children of their own faith to cover the 20% of schools where demand exceeds available places.

But the more immediate measures will be focused on the hand-over of Catholic school buildings in areas where there is insufficient population growth for new schools to be set up.

The changes come on foot of the report in April by an advisory group to Mr Quinn’s Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector. Following public sessions last year and submissions from parents groups, religious leaders, school managers, and teacher unions, the group chaired by Prof John Coolahan made a series of major recommendations, including:

* Removal of preparation for sacraments such as First Communion and Confirmation from class-time in Catholic schools;

* Removal of a stipulation in the 1965 primary school rules that religion is the most important subject;

* Development of a new primary curriculum for education regarding religion and beliefs, and also about ethics.

It'll be interesting to see what sort of timeframe the Minister is looking at for the changes to be implemented.

Rev Hellfire

I'd be more interested in seeing what this will cost me.

Penn

koth wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what sort of timeframe the Minister is looking at for to be implemented.

If it's not within 3 years, there's f*ck all point doing it because by the time it's all done properly, fairly, and equally for all, my great-grandchildren will be discussing this using FaceGoogle chips implanted in their brains

Dades

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'd be more interested in seeing what this will cost me.

Spiritually?

Rev Hellfire

Dades wrote: »

Spiritually?

I'm all about the finances.

Galvasean

"* Removal of a stipulation in the 1965 primary school rules that religion is the most important subject"

Hopefully this one can be uprooted before its 50th anniversary.

zenbuffy

Would be nice if we could get rid of that ridiculous religious exemption in the Employment Equality Act too, as we're looking at overhauling things...

Zamboni

Details available now.

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=10861&ecategory=10876&sectionpage=12251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=57706

Zamboni

zenbuffy wrote: »

Would be nice if we could get rid of that ridiculous religious exemption in the Employment Equality Act too, as we're looking at overhauling things...

No mention of that in the press release

jank

A good step in the right direction.

expectationlost

2%

smokingman

Was listening to Quinn on the radio yesterday evening and he said that for schools that were being handed over, the pupils in the school already would have to go through before the patronage officially changed over.

I'm left wondering if he also includes the children whose parents have already booked their kids in to schools as I had to book my lads in a few weeks after they were born.

Zamboni

I think he is playing a smart game.

Instead of going in guns blazing and causing uproar he is dealing with the non-controversial issues first.

Give new schools to patrons of multi-denominational organisations - Tick
Agree divestment with Catholic Church - In progress

Deal with the Equality Act exemption, in school prep for religious ceremonies, etc after.
Otherwise the first two steps would have been in jeopardy.

robindch

koth wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what sort of timeframe the Minister is looking at

from here:

DofE wrote:

Meeting with the main education partners, the Minister said he broadly accepted the recommendations on divestment made by the Advisory Group and had requested that the process leading to divesting of patronage in areas of stable population begin immediately.

NS77

Zamboni wrote: »

I think he is playing a smart game.

Instead of going in guns blazing and causing uproar he is dealing with the non-controversial issues first.

Give new schools to patrons of multi-denominational organisations - Tick
Agree divestment with Catholic Church - In progress

Deal with the Equality Act exemption, in school prep for religious ceremonies, etc after.
Otherwise the first two steps would have been in jeopardy.

Fair point... but I'd hate to see us moving towards a sectarian education system, which is where this could all end up. I think it's a real shame to be dividing children up based on their beliefs, or lack thereof.

Dave!

Aye, he's being very clever and diplomatic about sneaking his secular, atheist, Communist policies into the schools

thorn in the side

There’s an interesting Article by Niall Murray in the Irish Examiner today (Fri 22/06/2012) entitled

Potential school patrons warned against media battles

however the very next article on the same page

School ethos at total odds with ours

can only be describe as a soft soap, promotional piece on one such “Potential School Patron“, Educate Together.

There’s little point in admonishing “Potential School Patrons“ against “media battles” when jouranalists are already doing it in their articles on behalf of Educate Together.

Dades

NS77 wrote: »

Fair point... but I'd hate to see us moving towards a sectarian education system, which is where this could all end up. I think it's a real shame to be dividing children up based on their beliefs, or lack thereof.

That's what's so bloody frustrating. Just move RE class and sacrament preparation to after 3 o'clock in every State school. How inexpensive an option would that be, ffs?

thorn in the side

Also in the same article in the Irish Examiner today (Fri 22/06/2012) entitled:

Potential school patrons warned against media battles

Niall Murray states that

Department of Education secretary general Seán Ó Foghlú said some difficulties and challenges were reported when Educate Together and Co Wexford VEC were competing in 2010 to become patron of a new second level school in Gorey.

I wonder could Niall Murray / Seán Ó Foghlú have been referring to a number of VEC Committee Members (and some former Committee Members) and local politicians who were either discrediting Co. Wexford VEC and / or jumping on the Educate Together bandwagon, e.g.

Lisa McDonald:

Wexford Senator Lisa endorses ET school bid

WEXFORD SENATOR Lisa McDonald has given her full support to Educate Together’s (ET) application to open the new second level school in Gorey.

Following a meeting with Paul Rowe, Educate Together’s CEO and representatives of the local Gorey support group, Senator McDonald stated: “I give my full support to the Gorey Educate Together Second-Level School which will provide a new model of excellence in post-primary education for Gorey and County Wexford.”

/COLOR][I][COLOR=windowtext][FONT=Times New Roman]Gorey Echo 07 October, 2010[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=windowtext

There is also the fact that Lisa McDonald rubbished Co. Wexford VEC in a Seanad Éireann debate,

thorn in the side wrote: »

Restructuring of Vocational Education Committees: Statements

Malcolm Byrne:

Byrne the sole voice in favour of changes to existing 'quango'

CALLING Co Wexford VEC 'a quango' landed Cllr Malcolm Byrne in hot water at last week's meeting of the committee at its HQ in Ardcavan.

The Fianna Fáil councillor was the only VEC member to support the proposed merger of Co Wexford and Co Wicklow VECs as part of Government plan to reduce the number of VECs in the country from 33 to 16.

'From an efficiency point of view with regard to running education it's a good move,' he said.

However, it was not so much his support for the plan, but his view that ' there are far too many quangos and agencies in this country' that caused his colleagues to turn on him.

/COLOR][I][COLOR=windowtext][FONT=Times New Roman]Wexford People 27 October, 2010[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=windowtext

Liam Twomey:

Who will run Gorey school?

The Educate Together campaign to open the new second level school in Gorey gathered further momentum this week as Wexford Senator Liam Twomey pledged his support.

This follows another significant endorsement for Educate Together by former Gorey Community School Principal Nicholas Sweetman.

Commenting on Educate Together, Senator Twomey said: “I would like to offer my support to Educate Together having administrative and educational responsibility for the new school in Gorey. I believe it could add a new dimension to the educational system in the county, one that complements and supports what is already being achieved by the existing secondary schools in County Wexford.”

This is not the first political endorsement Educate Together’s Gorey campaign has received as the members of Gorey Town Council have almost unanimously supported it.

/COLOR][I][COLOR=windowtext][FONT=Times New Roman]Gorey Echo 23 September, 2010[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=windowtext

Zamboni

NS77 wrote: »

Fair point... but I'd hate to see us moving towards a sectarian education system, which is where this could all end up. I think it's a real shame to be dividing children up based on their beliefs, or lack thereof.

I agree division of children based on faith/lack of is not a great idea but it is the lesser of two evils.
There is no other realistic option.

recedite

NS77 wrote: »

but I'd hate to see us moving towards a sectarian education system, which is where this could all end up.

WTF.... that's exactly what we had. The whole point is to divest schools from that system!

Dades

Zamboni wrote: »

There is no other realistic option.

You mean no other option that has a realistic chance of being accepted by those with RC interests.

Because I suggested a very inexpensive and simple option above.

recedite

Dades, there are also a significant number of C of I schools around. It remains to be seen how popular these will be when an RC school is no longer the only alternative in town.
In any case, your solution of taking all the religious indoctrination outside of school hours amounts to a divestment of all schools from religious control.
If that is your goal (and I have no problem with that) it still makes sense to aim for just some schools at first, as an intermediate target.

Dades

recedite wrote: »

Dades, there are also a significant number of C of I schools around. It remains to be seen how popular these will be when an RC school is no longer the only alternative in town.

I have to say I'm not up with CoI schools, though I know many are highly regarded.

recedite wrote: »

In any case, your solution of taking all the religious indoctrination outside of school hours amounts to a divestment of all schools from religious control.

No, only the ones funded by the taxpayer. The ones paid for privately are good to go!

recedite wrote: »

If that is your goal (and I have no problem with that) it still makes sense to aim for just some schools at first, as an intermediate target.

Sure - target some schools. Just don't spend a fortune building new ones when the existing ones just need a policy change.

recedite

Which ones are funded privately?

AFAIK new schools are only being built in areas where the population has expanded and a new school is needed anyway, regardless of who the patron is.
In older more mature areas, it's all about divesting existing schools.
There is no extra cost in theory, unless class sizes end up being reduced, which some might look on as "an investment" in education.

Zamboni

Dades wrote: »

You mean no other option that has a realistic chance of being accepted by those with RC interests.

Because I suggested a very inexpensive and simple option above.

Hey, I'm all for your suggestion but it simply is not going to happen any-time soon unfortunately.

expectationlost

are they going be asked what type of school they want, or asked to choose from a list of existing patrons, which might not include the type of schools parents want?

Dades

expectationlost wrote: »

are they going be asked what type of school they want, or asked to choose from a list of existing patrons, which might not include the type of schools parents want?

That's what wrong with the current system. "What type of school..."

They're schools. Why should they be different?

thorn in the side

There was also:

Council supports Educate Together

GOREY TOWN Council have given their support for Educate Together (ET) to run the proposed new secondary school in Gorey.

Five members of the Gorey Town Council unanimously passed a motion to support ET’s drive to secure patronage of the new school. A delegation from Gorey’s ET second-level working group was invited to address the council meeting last Tuesday evening.

The four Fine Gael council members plus Labour’s Robbie Ireton agreed to write a letter directly to the Minister of Education and Skills, Mary Coughlan outlining their hope that ET would become the patron of the school.

I]Gorey Echo 17 June, 2010[/I

The four Fine Gael council members were, I believe,

Michael Darcy Senior,
Angie Dooley,
Darren Keegan, and
Colin Webb (who is currently a VEC Committee Member).

Interestingly, Michael Darcy Junior, a former past Chairman of Co. Wexford VEC, and currently a Senator, has always stayed loyal to the VEC, even to the point of commenting in Seanad Éireann in the Adjournment Debate - Drug Treatment Programme on Thursday, 1st April, 2010, as follows:

Deputy Michael D’Arcy: A number of years ago, Wexford County Council, in conjunction with County Wexford VEC, agreed a transfer of land which was the former premises of Gorey technical school. I had the pleasure of being the vice chairman of Wexford County Council at the time and chairman of County Wexford VEC.

recedite

thorn in the side wrote: »

.........has always stayed loyal to the VEC

State your point please.
You seem to be objecting to the fact that some councillors are supporting the ET model of primary school and not the VEC model.
This you regard as being "disloyal"?
Are you aware that the proposed new VEC model of State primary school involves segregating the kids during school hours into different ethno-religious groups for "appropriate" religious indoctrination specific to their type?
And that ET regard this as being "a bad idea."
Do you think this is just a matter of showing "loyalty" to buddies and cronies in the county council network, no matter how stupid their ideas are?

Dades

Yeah, I'm interested to hear is there's an agenda here.

This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox.

expectationlost

Dades wrote: »

That's what wrong with the current system. "What type of school..."

They're schools. Why should they be different?

?

well this is what they are being offered, im asking whether they really going to be asked an open question.


obviously there's more politics involved in the vecs, a sense of stagnation, they don't have the best reputation, will the new vec be really new, or just a carry over, ET have a sense of new and clean even if they've around of good while.

thorn in the side

recedite wrote: »

State your point please.
You seem to be objecting to the fact that some councillors are supporting the ET model of primary school and not the VEC model.
This you regard as being "disloyal"?
Are you aware that the proposed new VEC model of State primary school involves segregating the kids during school hours into different ethno-religious groups for "appropriate" religious indoctrination specific to their type?
And that ET regard this as being "a bad idea."
Do you think this is just a matter of showing "loyalty" to buddies and cronies in the county council network, no matter how stupid their ideas are?

Koth kicked off this thread with a quote from Niall Murray, Education Correspondent, which appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner on Wednesday, June 20, 2012. (The title of Niall Murray’s article became the title for the thread, i.e. ‘Hand-over of Catholic Schools to be revealed’).

2 days later and in last Friday’s Irish Examiner Niall Murray wrote 2 subsequent articles entitled ‘Potential school patrons warned against media battles’ and ‘School ethos at total odds with ours’.

Stemming from these 2 new articles I decided to make 2 points and I created 2 separate posts to do this.

My first post was about the 2 new articles taken together.

In Niall Murray's 1st article, he wrote that

“The patrons competing to take control of Catholic schools where parents want more choice for their children are being warned not to engage in ‘media battles’ for local support”.

In his 2nd article he quoted a parent as saying

"My husband and I are atheist or humanist, so we would prefer that she [their daughter] would have no faith formation, no being taught supernatural beliefs as fact," she said.

[Both parents, apparently...]

“...are active with a group of local parents that has around 100 children’s names for enrolment in a multi-denominational Educate Together school they hope will open in Trim in the next few years.

The group is one of a number likely to put themselves forward as an alternative patron body if a Catholic school property becomes available”.

(In the printed version of the Irish Examiner newspaper, this 2nd article appeared on the same page and immediately after the 1st article ).

I questioned why Niall Murray would write this 2nd piece, which could only be described as an advertisement, or "soft-soap", for one such “Potential School Patron”, which, in this particular case, turns out to be Educate Together.

I was trying to make the point that Niall Murray had quite obviously and blatantly breached the guidelines (not to engage in ‘media battles’ ) in his 2nd article, on which he himself had reported in his 1st article! I felt that this was inconsistent.

thorn in the side

My 2nd post was solely about the article entitled ‘Potential school patrons warned against media battles’ by Niall Murray, and specifically the part where he stated that

Department of Education secretary general Seán Ó Foghlú said some difficulties and challenges were reported when Educate Together and Co Wexford VEC were competing in 2010 to become patron of a new second level school in Gorey.

I wanted to point out, that most of these “difficulties and challenges”, according to Seán Ó Foghlú, and in the case of Wexford, had actually, already, been reported on in the local Wexford newspapers and that all of this material was freely accessible online. It still is! (The links are in my OP).

recedite wrote: »

You seem to be objecting to the fact that some councillors are supporting the ET model of primary school and not the VEC model.

I think that you might possibly have misunderstood my point here. Many of these “councillors” were also double-jobbing as VEC Committee Members. I was drawing attention to the sheer number of VEC Committee Members / “councillors” and local politicians, past and present, who rowed in with Educate Together – it’s almost as if they had completely forgotten about Co. Wexford VEC and had capitulated completely in the face of the bid by Educate Together for the secondary school in Gorey. I was thinking here specifically of former cllr. and former Senator Lisa McDonald (FF, who was also a Co. Wexford VEC Committee Member) and cllr. Malcolm Byrne, (FF, who still is a Co. Wexford VEC Committee Member). A lot of vitriolic comments by FF-ers and one Independent FF-er, in particular, Padge Reck, about Wexford VEC, have been widely reported on in the local Wexford newspapers. I went searching on the internet and discovered that 5 members of Gorey Town Council (4 x FG & 1 x Lab), including Cllr. Colin Webb (FG) a VEC Committee Member, had also rowed in behind Educate Together’s bid for patronage of the secondary school in Gorey, (and hence my third post about other local Wexford politicians). It was not just FF politicians who were rubbishing Wexford VEC - it crossed party lines.

recedite wrote: »

This you regard as being "disloyal"?

There are lots of different forms of loyalty, e.g. loyalty to one’s own family, country, political party, VEC, coalition government, County Council, School, etc.

You’ll have to admit that one of the situations which developed here was unusual (there are others):

Michael D’Arcy, Junior, FG, was the former Chairman of Co. Wexford VEC

Michael D’Arcy, Senior, FG, supported Educate Together

I can imagine, e.g., a Facebook status along the lines of “the awkward silence when granddad comes over for the Sunday roast”.

You'll have to admit that there has been a certain amount of "Mix 'n' Match" here in relation to Primary vs Secondary schools. (Niall Murray's article was originally in relation to Primary Schools, and this kicked off the Thread by Koth. Niall Murray introduced the Secondary School element when he mentioned the "difficulties and challenges [which] were reported when Educate Together and Co Wexford VEC were competing in 2010 to become patron of a new second level school in Gorey" in his article, ‘Potential school patrons warned against media battles’ of Friday 22/06/2012).

recedite wrote: »

Are you aware that the proposed new VEC model of State primary school involves segregating the kids during school hours into different ethno-religious groups for "appropriate" religious indoctrination specific to their type?
And that ET regard this as being "a bad idea."

You have introduced a point here which, I did not intend to raise in my OP.

recedite wrote: »

Do you think this is just a matter of showing "loyalty" to buddies and cronies in the county council network, no matter how stupid their ideas are?

I hope that I have explained my ideas in relation to “loyalty” above.

I did not criticise Educate Together or call them "buddies and cronies" or claim that their ideas were “stupid”.

robindch

Thorn, that's a truly splendid response, but one which is probably best kept for a private message, rather than here in the forum.

expectationlost

robindch wrote: »

Thorn, that's a truly splendid response, but one which is probably best kept for a private message, rather than here in the forum.

no,i think this is very interesting, its key to discussion, thre'll be plenty of shenanigans, i think he's right to call the councillors out on this.

recedite

thorn in the side wrote: »

Michael D’Arcy, Junior, FG, was the former Chairman of Co. Wexford VEC
Michael D’Arcy, Senior, FG, supported Educate Together

I can imagine, e.g., a Facebook status along the lines of “the awkward silence when granddad comes over for the Sunday roast”.

I wouldn't worry too much about them. I'm sure councillors oppose each other on various votes quite frequently, and then go for a pint together afterwards.
Its not exactly a civil war we're talking about.
Do you not think politicians should support an initiative based on its merits ? As opposed to who it originates from?

Its interesting that you don't want to discuss that other point, the segregation. There was an interesting study from the USA posted a while back by robinch I think, showing that people on the "religious right" placed a high priority on values such as loyalty and purity, whereas the "secular liberals" were more interested in justice and fairness.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

[...] interesting study from the USA posted a while back by robinch I think, showing that people on the "religious right" placed a high priority on values such as loyalty and purity, whereas the "secular liberals" were more interested in justice and fairness.

Sounds like something by Jonathan Haidt on the differences between liberals and conservatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc

Bob Altemeyer's fascinating book "The Authoritarians", covers similar ground:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

recedite

Heres another one, an article on "the moral instinct".

Not only is it allowable to inflict pain on a person who has broken a moral rule; it is wrong not to, to “let them get away with it.” People are thus untroubled in inviting divine retribution or the power of the state to harm other people they deem immoral. Bertrand Russell wrote, “The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists — that is why they invented hell.”

I suspect that "Thorn in the side" here is "righteously indignant" because these councillors appear to be "getting away with" their disloyalty to cronies and to the established system of religion-based education, and has taken it upon him/herself to "right this wrong".

Burt Lancaster

An article from a Dr. John Murray in an Irish Catholic bi-monthly, that might be of interest to this thread :

http://www.brandsmareview.ie/

IN DEFENCE OF CATHOLIC SCHOOLS IN IRELAND

HAVE PUBLICLY-FUNDED, or even privately funded, Catholic schools no place in Ireland?1Are they illegal? Are they a relic of the past that needs to be thrown out now? Are they unjustly discriminatory? Are they anti-educational? Are they unsafe for children? Many people have answered these questions, or some of them, and questions like them, with a resounding yes.

Take Aodhán Ó Riordáin, for example. He is a Labour TD and the vice-chair of the Oireachtas education committee, and, according to a recent report, he claimed that ,religious ethos has no place in the educational system of a modern republic,.2 He criticised Catholic primary schools for giving preference to Catholic pupils over others where a school is oversubscribed, and thus, according to him, breaking the law of the land. (More recently he has questioned the public funding of chaplains in some second-level schools. Clearly he has an anti-Catholic agenda. I wonder how representative of the Labour Party, and the government more widely, is his attitude?) To claim that Catholic schools cannot give any priority to Catholic applicants to the school is to say that there should be no Catholic schools, that such schools have no place in Irish society.3

Such criticisms are unsound. Catholic schools need not apologise for their existence in Ireland. There are very good reasons why they have a right to exist, both those that are privately funded and those publicly funded too. Parents have a right to educate their own children; in fact they have a responsibility to do this precisely because they are parents. This is recognised by Irish law and international law.4 It is a principle of the natural law and it is also a principle of Catholic Social Doctrine.

Primary Educators

Parents are the primary educators of their children; the state is not. The state has a role to play, but it is a subsidiary role, supportive of parents, not a substitute for them (except in very exceptional cases of parental neglect or failure). Parents are entitled, therefore, to expect the state, operating on behalf of society, to fund and coordinate schooling that respects their role as parents, their children,s rights and needs, as well as the common good of all.5 In Ireland, with our large Catholic population, this has led naturally to a large number of Catholic schools, most of which are publicly funded.

It is agreed by the Church and others that, in light of the decreased demand for them, there are too many Catholic schools. And so there is a need to divest some of them of their Catholic patronage. How many schools this should involve and how it should be done are matters of some debate and difficulty. This is a situation to be acknowledged with sadness, not a situation to celebrate. There is far too much mindless talk these days of ,celebrating diversity,, including religious diversity, as if it were a good thing in itself always (which it is not), and which ignores the negative side of some kinds of diversity.

It is a great pity and shame that so many people in Ire land do not want Catholic schools for their children, for various reasons, including no doubt the failure of the Church to effectively witness to the joy and truth of the Gospel consistently and universally. Those of us who think of Catholic schools as really good schools, in so many ways, want all people to freely choose to be Catholics and to send their children to Catholic schools.6 But this would have to be freely chosen, of course, and we have to recognise the sad reality that a number of parents now would like to freely choose non-Catholic schools. Recognising their natural rights as parents, Catholics should accept that such people should not be forced to send their children to Catholic schools. Ideally, parents should have a choice of the type of school for their children. Furthermore, parents should be allowed to withdraw their children from Catholic religious education classes if these classes conflict with their own beliefs and values, and schools should accommodate this where possible.

But it is not always practically possible to make an adequate choice of school types available. Resources are limited, especially at the present time of recession. Would a system of entirely non-denominational schools solve the problem? Would a system of entirely multi-denominational schools do so?7 Surely not. In a pluralistic society, only a matching plurality of school types can hope to offer a fair and acceptable solution. A system of only one type of school would necessarily be exclusive. This means that in Ireland today, this ,modern republic,, where there remains a substantial number of Catholic parents and pupils, a substantial number of schools should remain Catholic, and new Catholic schools should be built in areas where this is appropriate. It is not necessary or fair to expect in present circumstances that all schools should be Catholic; but it is not fair to expect or require Catholic schools to ,dumb down, their Catholicism, to turn themselves into vaguely ,religious, schools that are really agnostic, or to disappear totally.

Some people are against Catholic schools because they think they are not truly educational. They regard religion as a matter of ,faith, alone, and they see ,faith, as a matter of choice alone, with perhaps an emotional or intuitive aspect, but with no role for reason or knowledge as such. Religious education is seen as mere ,indoctrination, in this view.8 The term indoctrination was used positively in the past for catechesis, but is now used pejoratively, referring to a teaching process that bypasses or neglects or contradicts the critical facilities of pupils.

Faith vs Reason?

It should be acknowledged that genuine Catholic religious education (and a genuine Catholic ethos too) is one that fully respects pupils as people endowed with the God-given gift of reason. Catholicism views faith and reason as fully complementary and harmonious.9 There should be no fideistic or fundamentalist approach taken to religious education in Catholic schools. Catholic religion is not a matter of faith alone, but involves reason too. No Catholic teacher should be afraid to engage in discussion and debate in religion class (and other classes) as if this was in some way a threat to Catholic faith. Catholic schools should aim at developing the intellectual abilities of their students, including in the area of faith.

Included in this is teaching about other faiths and worldviews. There is no reason why Catholic schools should teach only Catholicism and ignore other religions. But clearly in a Catholic school the teaching about other faiths will be different than the teaching of the Catholic faith. The teaching of the Catholic faith will be done from within our religious tradition, from within belief and practice, not from a merely historical or cultural or psychological point of view (important though these are). The Catholic religion teacher teaches the Catholic religion as something that is true (focused on a relationship with Jesus as Lord, Saviour, and Friend). Of course, there are elements of other faiths and worldviews that overlap with Catholicism, and these should be highlighted, especially as we live in a society with people who do not fully share our faith. Also, pupils should be taught a proper understanding of tolerance and respect for others, freedom of religion and other legitimate rights. But it is important that Catholic schools should do this in a way that fully respects the Catholic faith, that teaches from within the faith. Catholics can be good citizens, tolerant people, caring neighbours, people who respect others who are different in their beliefs and religious practices, because they are Catholics and not in spite of their being Catholics.10 We will not help to develop a more 'inclusive' Ireland if we exclude people,s religious beliefs and practices from the public sphere and relegate it to the private - especially if those beliefs and practices are of the majority religion of our society.

Home, Parish & School

Some Catholics seem to be thinking that it would be better if religious education, or at least catechesis, including especially preparation for the sacraments, should be done in the parish and not the school. But why should we have to choose only one or two of the three agents of evangelisation: home, parish, school? Why not include all three? Schools play a particular role in developing the intellectual aspect of faith and religious practice. So it would be a great loss if we were to move all catechesis to the parish and/or home. That said, perhaps we have put too much emphasis in the past on the school and this needs to be rebalanced: but let's not go to the other extreme and treat religious education in schools as best done in a totally non-faith-based manner. To do this would be to feed the prejudice that religious faith is non-intellectual, out-of-date and out-of-place in a scholarly and educational setting.

Lately we,ve heard criticisms of the amount of time spent on religious education in primary schools, as if this time were taken away from the 'real' teaching that could be done in English or Maths. We need to stand up for Catholic education here. There is no good reason to exclude religious education from a holistic education, one that follows the guidance of the Education Act and includes not only the intellectual, but also the spiritual and moral dimensions of the person. Religious education, and especially a catechetical approach to it in a faith-based school, contributes to the education of the child; it is not a privation of education in supposedly more 'objective' or 'knowledgebased' subjects. English or Maths have their rightful place in schools and are given a lot of attention. But religion deserves its place in the curriculum too.

Religious faith can contribute to the common good. Even those who do not belong to a religion are often able to recognise that religious faith can motivate acts of kindness and generosity; it can lead us to value the environment we live in; it can help us to cope with difficulties, suffering, bereavement, failure.

Common Good

It is for many a great personal and social good. Of course, we know that not all aspects of religion are always good; there is a dark side sometimes. And we know that Catholic schools have never been perfect in the past. But we should not let that make us lose sight of the many good aspects of religion, Catholicism, and Catholic schools. Many people value their Catholic education, even those who have later weakened in their faith or even lost their faith.

Finally, it needs to be said that Catholic schools are usually very welcoming places. It is very rare that a Catholic school would turn away an applicant. If that were to happen, this would hardly be the fault of the school, which simply has no space left, but the fault of bad social planning that failed to provide sufficient schools. A Catholic school would favour a Catholic applicant over a non-Catholic one, only if there was simply no way to accept both applicants.11 But it stands to reason that, if Catholic schools are to exist in Ireland - and they have every right to do so - then they should be allowed to be Catholic, and that includes prioritising the service of the Catholic community, albeit in a way that is always welcoming to others who value the Catholic model of education, and is always in service of the common good of society too. http://www.brandsmareview.ie/

recedite

Hmmm....there are a few funnies in there alright;

It is a great pity and shame that so many people in Ire land do not want Catholic schools for their children

The term indoctrination was used positively in the past for catechesis, but is now used pejoratively, referring to a teaching process that bypasses or neglects or contradicts the critical facilities of pupils.

Catholic religion is not a matter of faith alone, but involves reason too

Catholics can be good citizens, tolerant people, caring neighbours, people who respect others who are different in their beliefs and religious practices.......There is far too much mindless talk these days of ,celebrating diversity,, including religious diversity, as if it were a good thing.

Lately we,ve (sic) heard criticisms of the amount of time spent on religious education in primary schools, as if this time were taken away from the 'real' teaching that could be done in English or Maths.

It is very rare that a Catholic school would turn away an applicant. If that were to happen, this would hardly be the fault of the school

it is not fair to expect or require Catholic schools to ,dumb down, their Catholicism,

Many people value their Catholic education, even those who have later weakened in their faith or even lost their faith.