Three trouts land - alleged corruption

Maudi

the three trout land bought for three million...now worth...maybe worth three hundred thousand now...great news story in the wonderful north wicklow times...wicklow county council..crooked from the top down...

matt-dublin

erm, is there a bit more substance to this post other than a quick snipe?

The land was sold years ago under contract to wicklow co co, they never actually payed for it.

The fella who owned it died and his family wanted their money...

bido

matt-dublin wrote: »

erm, is there a bit more substance to this post other than a quick snipe?

The land was sold years ago under contract to wicklow co co, they never actually payed for it.

The fella who owned it died and his family wanted their money...

Thats not the full story.:D

cuddlycavies

A full enquiry into the transaction will hopefully uncover the truth. Not likely anyone will go to jail. this is Ireland. The land is pretty useless for houses boom or no boom. People were misled as to the compelling need to close the transaction. Lies were told. Did money change hands? Time will tell. Or maybe it wont.

Maudi

matt-dublin wrote: »

erm, is there a bit more substance to this post other than a quick snipe?

The land was sold years ago under contract to wicklow co co, they never actually payed for it.

The fella who owned it died and his family wanted their money...

sold under contract to the co co?the land was bought by c.p.o by the co co...and wasnt there something about the person(s)who "owned" the land accquired it through squatters rights...or maybe im thinking of some other shady deal....anyway tricky dicky is in complete denial about the whole thing.political amnesia .

Annasopra

Maudi wrote: »

sold under contract to the co co?the land was bought by c.p.o by the co co...and wasnt there something about the person(s)who "owned" the land accquired it through squatters rights...or maybe im thinking of some other shady deal....anyway tricky dicky is in complete denial about the whole thing.political amnesia .

Tricky Dicky?

matt-dublin

Dick roche

Annasopra

matt-dublin wrote: »

Dick roche

What about him? He hasn't been Minister for the Environment since 2007 or a TD since 2011

pixbyjohn

The owner of the land was the late Mr Irwin, he was not a squatter.
He lived on Church Road, Greystones.
The €3 million was paid to the representatives of Mr. Irwin.

Maudi

pixbyjohn wrote: »

The owner of the land was the late Mr Irwin, he was not a squatter.
He lived on Church Road, Greystones.
The €3 million was paid to the representatives of Mr. Irwin.

i stand corrected..whoever valued it at a million an acre for a flood plain??

bido

pixbyjohn wrote: »

The owner of the land was the late Mr Irwin, he was not a squatter.
He lived on Church Road, Greystones.
The €3 million was paid to the representatives of Mr. Irwin.

He wasnt the only owner;)

sinkadinka

Out of curiousity the derelict house that is almost under three trout bridge on the way to kilcoole, is that now owned by co co also?

pixbyjohn

bido wrote: »

He wasnt the only owner;)

Yes he was, but another man thought he could claim rights to it but the claim was withdrawn on the very same day that the representatives of Mr Irwin was paid 3 million euro.

bido

Did John Nolan rip.not own a piece of the land ?:D

Maudi

mango salsa wrote: »

matt-dublin wrote: »

Dick roche

What about him? He hasn't been Minister for the Environment since 2007 or a TD since 2011

according to the n.w.t tricky dicky pressurised the cathaoirleach to cpo the land..when asked about being involved roach denied all knowledge of the land.(roach was minister for the enviroment at the time)

pixbyjohn

bido wrote: »

Did John Nolan rip.not own a piece of the land ?:D

No, but he did have livestock grazing it and he certainly was a very good friend of Mr. Irwin. John was a great man for the stories and the goose eggs.

recedite

A CPO is normally only used when a particular piece of land is needed for an essential piece of public infastructure, such as a new road. You can't have one or two landowners along the route holding up a big project because they are refusing to sell.
What is the intended purpose of this land? Is it urgent?

Maudi

recedite wrote: »

A CPO is normally only used when a particular piece of land is needed for an essential piece of public infastructure, such as a new road. You can't have one or two landowners along the route holding up a big project because they are refusing to sell.
What is the intended purpose of this land? Is it urgent?

your right about the 'normal' usage of a cpo.however this small parcel of controversal land dosent seem to fit that criteria..its a pretty much landlocked plot of flood plains..seems the council cpo'd it..a (guy who im sure was ill advised)tried to make a claim on it..but with with drew his claim at the last minute..the 'representitives'of the deceased owner called the councils bluff and pocketed one million per acre...(3 acre site) three million??apparently if the council ever build on it they will be breaching their own rules about building on unsuitable land...mostly i accept that the local politutes involved in this are imo.crooks what annoys me is that local services have been threatened with cuts to pay for the co.co handing over three million for land today valued at p'raps 3 hundred thousand..and will they get away with it..yes.

Maudi

recedite wrote: »

A CPO is normally only used when a particular piece of land is needed for an essential piece of public infastructure, such as a new road. You can't have one or two landowners along the route holding up a big project because they are refusing to sell.
What is the intended purpose of this land? Is it urgent?

your right about the 'normal' usage of a cpo.however this small parcel of controversal land dosent seem to fit that criteria..its a pretty much landlocked plot of flood plains..seems the council cpo'd it..a (guy who im sure was ill advised)tried to make a claim on it..but with drew his claim at the last minute..the 'representitives'of the deceased owner called the councils bluff and pocketed one million per acre...(3 acre site) three million??apparently if the council ever build on it they will be breaching their own rules about building on unsuitable land...mostly i accept that the local politutes involved in this are imo.crooks what annoys me is that local services have been threatened with cuts to pay for the co.co handing over three million for land today valued at p'raps 3 hundred thousand..and will they get away with it..yes.

recedite

So why did the council CPO it in the first place?
I heard they intended to build council houses. But if that was true, it would have been better to tender for a site, ie. put out adds in the papers/contact estate agents, and then they could have picked the most suitable site at the best price.
The fact that no houses were built (and anyway it is allegedly unsuitable for building because of it being a floodplain) suggests that the council needs the site for some other reason. Otherwise people will assume it's just plain old corrupt dealings.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

So why did the council CPO it in the first place?
I heard they intended to build council houses. But if that was true, it would have been better to tender for a site, ie. put out adds in the papers/contact estate agents, and then they could have picked the most suitable site at the best price.
The fact that no houses were built (and anyway it is allegedly unsuitable for building because of it being a floodplain) suggests that the council needs the site for some other reason. Otherwise people will assume it's just plain old corrupt dealings.

Yes - the purpose was for social housing

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/pac/correspondence/2011-meeting200812/[PAC-R-192]Correspondence-4.7.pdf

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0829/wicklow.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0727/1224301447304.html

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/nevin-insists-councillors-not-fully-versed-before-three-trouts-vote-2937143.html

Maudi

recedite wrote: »

So why did the council CPO it in the first place?
I heard they intended to build council houses. But if that was true, it would have been better to tender for a site, ie. put out adds in the papers/contact estate agents, and then they could have picked the most suitable site at the best price.
The fact that no houses were built (and anyway it is allegedly unsuitable for building because of it being a floodplain) suggests that the council needs the site for some other reason. Otherwise people will assume it's just plain old corrupt dealings.

sounds like tricky dicky moonlighting as an estate to me...

recedite

The story that the land was needed for council houses just doesn't add up.
If they already had 16 acres of land bank lying idle before the deal, a quick back of the (white) envelope calculation indicates they could be building 35 council houses now on some of it instead (costing approx €85K each) This could have provided much needed jobs in the local economy.

Huntthe

recedite wrote: »

So why did the council CPO it in the first place?

That is the question that needs answering or more specifically why was it cpo'd when it was. Once the form is issued the property is valued at the rate that applies at the time. The Council did not need to issue the Cpo when the market was at it's peak.The Council can Cpo at anytime. Who pushed it through and why ? It stinks.

Plastik

Can someone pinpoint this infamous plot of land for me, is it between Jackie Skellys and the Kilcoole Roundabout?

matt-dublin

this is it i think:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=greystones,+ireland&hl=en&ll=53.130938,-6.063573&spn=0.002124,0.005681&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.688268,93.076172&hnear=Greystones,+County+Wicklow,+Ireland&t=h&z=18

bido

It is between the back of the church of the nazerine and the kilcoole road R761, on left hand sie of the road as you drive to kilcoole ,at the bridge just before entrance to Rodney Evans motors.

pixbyjohn

The entrance to this piece of land is on the Kilcoole side John Nolan's House,
There is a pair of Iron gates at the entrance and a laneway leads to the land in question. Other than the entrance the land does not border on the Kilcoole road. I think Bido may be mixing up the actual location of the land.

bido

Is the house by the mill lane that was owned by david johnson not part of the land in question?

pixbyjohn

bido wrote: »

Is the house by the mill lane that was owned by david johnson not part of the land in question?

No, As far as I know Ballymore Homes own that now. You cannot see the CPO'd land from the road

bido

I thought the land in question ran from the bridge down along the river.:eek:

Maudi

bido wrote: »

I thought the land in question ran from the bridge down along the river.:eek:

maybe someone a bit more 'tech'enabled than me could put up a map of the site.but its where pixbyjohn described...theres an entrance from charlesland grove..and rather nice walk thru it from an entrance that starts on church road.killincarrig end.xcross from the bus stop and comes out at 3 trouts bridge..b.t.w anybody know why its called 3 trouts?

pixbyjohn

pixbyjohn wrote: »

The entrance to this piece of land is on the Kilcoole side John Nolan's House, There is a pair of Iron gates at the entrance and a laneway leads to the land in question. Other than the entrance the land does not border on the Kilcoole road. I think Bido may be mixing up the actual location of the land.

This land does not border the Kilcoole Road at all and as far as I know does not border the public walkway that is the mill walk.

bido

Maudi wrote: »

maybe someone a bit more 'tech'enabled than me could put up a map of the site.but its where pixbyjohn described...theres an entrance from charlesland grove..and rather nice walk thru it from an entrance that starts on church road.killincarrig end.xcross from the bus stop and comes out at 3 trouts bridge..b.t.w anybody know why its called 3 trouts?

http://www.delganyheritagevillage.com/three_trout_stream.html

recedite

An update on this, as the story is currently back on the front page of the local freebie, the Wicklow Times, under the headline "Corruption File Stolen". According to the paper, Minister for Environment and local Govt. Alan Kelly had a file on his desk relating to this rezoning. The file contained "detailed new information" but has now gone missing, and was "possibly stolen". Wicklowgate!!

Here's some more background info; an interesting story with a cast of well known, even infamous local characters, and the building of Charlesland estate is at the very heart of it. It explains some of the interactions between County managers, councillors, Sean Fitzpatrick formerly of Anglo Irish Bank, Ballymore homes (the Charlesland builders) and the semi-derelict part of the main street in Bray, a good stretch of which was bought up for the proposed Florentine shopping centre, which then went to Nama.

And this;

Another controversy that continues to rock the council surrounds 3.5 acres of land at Three Trouts adjoining Charlesland which senior officials sought to obtain through a compulsory purchase order (CPO) some years ago. They claimed that it was required for social housing, despite claims to An Bord Pleanála by the then landowner, John Nolan,that the land was on a flood plain.
In an echo of Dooley’s recent allegations the landowner, since deceased, also claimed that the real reason for the purchase was to facilitate road access to lands at Charlesland owned by Zapi, an assertion denied by the council officials. No plans for social housing have been advanced.

pixbyjohn

"despite claims to An Bord Pleanála by the then landowner, John Nolan,that the land was on a flood plain."
John Nolan never owned the land in question, he did have livestock on it alright.