Why is my chain wearing so fast?

rat_race

Bought a Ninja250R in October, had 6,000 miles on it. Every time I tighten the chain, it seems to become very loose again very quickly. I'm not sure why.

The wheel is not out of alignment and although I could probably lubricate it more often, I don't neglect the chain. I'm not over tightening it either.

It's now at the last "notch" on the alightment indicator meaning it should really be replaced next time I need to tighten it.

I'm curious: apart from neglect, aggressive driving, and poor wheel alignment, what can cause a chain to wear so much?

I did notice from day one that that there were fairly big variations in the chain slack on various parts of the chain when I spun the wheel. I know this is normal, but I wonder if the previous owner neglected the chain.

I have put 6,000 miles on it myself, so it has 12,000 miles.

I suppose I'll have to replace them soon...I'll probably give it a shot myself!

CJhaughey

1. Poor quality chain.
2. Worn sprockets.
3. Lack of Lubrication
These are the main reasons for a chain wearing fast, what kind of chain is it? DID or Tsubaki/RK/Regina?
X or O-ring? or is it a standard non sealed chain?
A good quality O-ring should last a long time on a 250cc twin they aren't that hard on chains unlike big singles or litrebikes.
Are you sure the sprockets are in line? If they are out by a small bit the wear will be greatly accelerated.
Could you borrow a chain alignment tester to check?

rat_race

Pretty sure they sprocket & chain are OEM...I could be wrong, but it looks like the stock chain (no visible masterlink), and I highly doubt they were replaced by previous owner.

I did ride it up and down the M50 a lot in all conditions, but I'd expect it to last longer than it has especially since I did look after it.

What could cause the sprockets to be out of alignment apart from improper installation? I had a look and nothing seems out of line but I might have a garage take a look. Or see if I can get one of those tools.

Del2005

I'd guess the last owner only changed the chain or sprockets. It's cheaper to do but in the long run both will wear out, as they bed in together, and the new part will wear quicker.

Always replace the chain and sprockets together, it's a false economy doing them at different times.

CJhaughey

I replace the countershaft sprocket usually at least once during the lifetime of a chain and rear sprocket, they wear more than the rear sprocket.
I know the accepted advice is to replace the lot but 15t vs 45 teeth so the front is doing 3 times the work.

CJhaughey

rat_race wrote: »

What could cause the sprockets to be out of alignment apart from improper installation? I had a look and nothing seems out of line but I might have a garage take a look. Or see if I can get one of those tools.

I don't trust makers marks on swingarms and chain adjusters.
They can be good but they could be bullshít as well.
The only way is to physically check the alignment.
Could be a spacer on the wrong side or worse:eek: don't laugh!
I had a mate complain that his bike was handing badly in corners and he'd lost confidence cornering.
I rode the bike and nearly shat myself in the first corner. Turns out he'd got some local tyre shop to fix a puncture and they'd refitted the wheel with out the spacers so it just wobbled from side to side, the only thing keeping it in line was the chain under tension!

Cedrus

CJhaughey wrote: »

1. Poor quality chain.
2. Worn sprockets.
3. Lack of Lubrication
These are the main reasons for a chain wearing fast, what kind of chain is it? DID or Tsubaki/RK/Regina?
X or O-ring? or is it a standard non sealed chain?
A good quality O-ring should last a long time on a 250cc twin they aren't that hard on chains unlike big singles or litrebikes.
Are you sure the sprockets are in line? If they are out by a small bit the wear will be greatly accelerated.
Could you borrow a chain alignment tester to check?

+
4. Dirty chain. Riding on dusty gritty roads /yards can turn your chain oil into grinding paste.
5. Clutch dumping. Impact loading creates double the stress of gradually applied load, smooth clutch action is much kinder to chain, sprockets and spindles.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Well its only a Ninja250R so I'm going to assume wheelies (attempts) are out of the question, so the other common causes (in my experience) is hard acceleration and poor chain maintenance.

Cheap chains can wear quick too.

LookBehindYou

Change the chain and sprockets and check the sprocket carrier bearing too.

Please Kill Me

Maybe when the chain is being adjusted, it's too tight? And this: "big variations in the chain slack on various parts of the chain when I spun the wheel" is a tight spot, or a few of them and basically the chain is shagged and needs to be replaced.

rat_race

Walter Noisy Memorandum wrote: »

Well its only a Ninja250R so I'm going to assume wheelies (attempts) are out of the question, so the other common causes (in my experience) is hard acceleration and poor chain maintenance.

Cheap chains can wear quick too.

No wheelies ... sometimes hard acceleration, but nothing crazy...

Please Kill Me wrote: »

Maybe when the chain is being adjusted, it's too tight? And this: "big variations in the chain slack on various parts of the chain when I spun the wheel" is a tight spot, or a few of them and basically the chain is shagged and needs to be replaced.

Well yep, there was defo tighter and looser spots from day one, which I thought was somewhat normal (but maybe it's rarer than I thought)...

I guess I'll blame the previous owner then ...

I'm fairly handy when I need to be (as in, I'd change the oil, replace pads, etc...) Reckon I'll manage the sprockets myself?

Guess I'll need a chain breaker? Rest of it seems doable with everyday tools. Have the service manual, although I think it's overkill (tells you to remove way too much stuff).

LookBehindYou

Grind off the rivets with a grinder, lever the rest out with a sharp screwdriver. No need for chain breaker.
Undo the front sprocket nut before you break the chain.

lostboy

ive heard of changing the front sprocket twice during the chains lifetime as the additional wear on the front sprocket will lessen the chains lifespan.

Cedrus

lostboy wrote: »

ive heard of changing the front sprocket twice during the chains lifetime as the additional wear on the front sprocket will lessen the chains lifespan.

That's a waste of time and money, you should change both sprockets and the chain together and keep the wear pattern regular, if you put any one of those in separately, it will upset the pattern and actually increase the wear.
Besides, of all the sets I've changed it's always the rear sprocket that had the most wear.

Hotblack Desiato

LookBehindYou wrote: »

Grind off the rivets with a grinder, lever the rest out with a sharp screwdriver. No need for chain breaker.

Or just go through it with a hacksaw, but it'll take a while.

Chain and sprockets wear into each other, so changing any of them but not the others will wear the others out faster. With a high quality chain the additional cost of changing the sprockets isn't all that much and it'll help you get the most life out of the chain.

rat_race

So I realise now I do need some tools...a riveting tool. And also a chain breaker of some sort as chains often come with too many links (right?)...

So can anyone recommend a tool that'll be fairly compatible with various brands, if one exists? I thinking of DID chainset so looking at this... http://www.didchain.com/chainTools.html ...? But not sure if it'll work with other brands.

It says "designed to rivet DID Z J rivet style links" -- so can this style of link be used on other brand chains?

Also says its designed "for DID 520, 525, 530 and 532 size chains"...

I suspose I could always stick to DID chains if that's the case.

Bah, wish I knew more about what's required. Anyone wanna give me a quick run down on the various types/sizes?

I know from my cycle days that each manufacturer says you require a special specific tool for their chain when in actual fact a lot of the times you don't.

Please Kill Me

rat_race wrote: »

I suspose I could always stick to DID chains if that's the case.

I can't give you a quick run-down on the chains/tools etc, but I'm sure someone with more knowledge can and will, but what I CAN tell you is that I use DID chains (X-Ring) and swear by them. I never use anything else, nor will I ever. Great chains.

rat_race

Please Kill Me wrote: »

I can't give you a quick run-down on the chains/tools etc, but I'm sure someone with more knowledge can and will, but what I CAN tell you is that I use DID chains (X-Ring) and swear by them. I never use anything else, nor will I ever. Great chains.

Cool, thanks...might be worth the investment. They're about 90e...but I'm sure a mech would easily charge that in labour!

CJhaughey

With Chain tools it pays to buy a proper riveter/breaker.
Those DID ones you linked to are very very good, if you don't get that model I recommend you get another one about the same price,
Lots of cheapo ones will bend the pins very easily, talking from experience here it's not worth the hassle.
Those two models are breaker/riveters in other words they do both cutting and rejoining the chain. Breakers on there own are much cheaper, I used my vise to press the last o-ring chain apart with a pin and a socket.
The DID one will only do DID Chain afaik, thats no harm as DID stuff is generally good, stay away from Regina and other lesser brands they aren't a patch on a good DID chain.
What chain size is yours, 520?

lostboy

Cedrus wrote: »

That's a waste of time and money, you should change both sprockets and the chain together and keep the wear pattern regular, if you put any one of those in separately, it will upset the pattern and actually increase the wear.
Besides, of all the sets I've changed it's always the rear sprocket that had the most wear.

the reasoning being that the front one wears out in half the time so you replace everything and then the front sprocket midway through the lifespan of everything and then everything again when its all worn out. heard it increases the lifespan of things a bit, might of only have been for that particular bike or something, of course ive never actually had to replace chains or sprockets since my px200 hasnt got and i havent kept a bike long enough to actually wear out a chain

Cedrus

lostboy wrote: »

the reasoning being that the front one wears out in half the time so you replace everything and then the front sprocket midway through the lifespan of everything and then everything again when its all worn out. heard it increases the lifespan of things a bit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

No, it doesn't work like that.

CJhaughey

Cedrus wrote: »

No, it doesn't work like that.

Thats a pretty general statement, I have had to replace front sprockets halfway through the life of a chain, mind you I have a big single which is much harder on chains than a relatively smooth twin or 4 cyl bike.
Not all bikes and chains will need it but machines used offroad can also need the front replaced sooner.
Plus sometimes I play with gearing and change sprockets depending on what I am doing.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643395&highlight=front+sprocket

Del2005

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cedrus wrote: »

No, it doesn't work like that.

Thats a pretty general statement, I have had to replace front sprockets halfway through the life of a chain, mind you I have a big single which is much harder on chains than a relatively smooth twin or 4 cyl bike.
Not all bikes and chains will need it but machines used offroad can also need the front replaced sooner.
Plus sometimes I play with gearing and change sprockets depending on what I am doing.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643395&highlight=front+sprocket

You may get a bit longer by just changing one part. But the new part will not last and you'll increase the wear rate of the remaining parts.


Replacing the full set is always the best option.

CJhaughey

Del2005 wrote: »

You may get a bit longer by just changing one part. But the new part will not last and you'll increase the wear rate of the remaining parts.


Replacing the full set is always the best option.

Thats what the dealers always say;), Think about it like this.
Chain~ 80+
Rear sprocket~ 20-30
Front sprocket ~8-10
Why not just refit a new front sprocket and get another 8-10k out ot the set and then replace the whole lot for a cost of 10% of the chain?
Replacing the chain set just because the front has worn is crazy economy in my book.
Don't get me wrong chains and sprockets are important and they do wear but if your chain is good and the rear sprocket is good than sticking a new front sprocket on that will see the other two parts till their end of life is no biggie.

Del2005

CJhaughey wrote: »

Thats what the dealers always say;), Think about it like this.
Chain~ 80+
Rear sprocket~ 20-30
Front sprocket ~8-10
Why not just refit a new front sprocket and get another 8-10k out ot the set and then replace the whole lot for a cost of 10% of the chain?
Replacing the chain set just because the front has worn is crazy economy in my book.
Don't get me wrong chains and sprockets are important and they do wear but if your chain is good and the rear sprocket is good than sticking a new front sprocket on that will see the other two parts till their end of life is no biggie.

You seriously speed up the end of life.

No two items are ever the same, that's why there are tolerances in all manufacturing. If no two can be made the same then they can never wear the same. When you replace a full set of sprockets they have roughly smooth services and they bed into each other.

When you only replace the worn sprocket(s) your chain will have a totally different profile to the new sprocket. This will result in your chain wearing out quicker trying to bed into the new smooth sprocket. As the chain wears unevenly it will then try to bed into your old sprocket. As the chain and rear sprocket now have uneven surfaces they won't roll easily over the new sprocket, hence this will wear quicker.

With uneven wear there's more chance of a chain failing. You'll save a few quid at a risk to the bike and yourself.

CJhaughey

Up to you, its your money, I know when a chain is nearing the end of its life, and will replace the whole chain set then, but often I've had to change the front sprocket because its hooked and the rear and chain are still serviceable.
You are telling me that I should keep riding on a fooked up front sprocket until the whole shebang is fooked?
That just doesn't make sense to me.
Its simple really, a front sprocket is a lot smaller than a rear and consequently does more work, hence wears faster and should be replaced if its worn, not left to make shíte of the rest of the drive train.
I guess not everyone thinks like this but I am pretty sure that a lot of people can save money this way, I certainly have.

Wossack

if the chain has plenty of life left in it - no bad links, nowhere near its max stretch etc, I'd be certainly tempted to just swap out a bogey front sprocket. Dont need to break the chain for this, so its quick enough job (if you can get the bastard nut off)

Yes the chain may chew up the new front sprocket a bit initially, but theyre less then a tenner, vs the 90+ for the chain..

lostboy

sure next time you ninja star a front and your rear is still grand and the chain still has some movement just spend the tenner and see what happens instead of the price of the lot.

rat_race

FYI all, I replaced the chain and sprockets today. The front sprocket was showing some signs of wear. Very little, but some. But the back sprocket looked 100% perfect...I compared it to my new and I couldn't see any difference...very interesting!

If anyone wants it, let me know...

Hotblack Desiato

I always replace chain and both sprockets together. The chain always wears out first (O or X ring chains, Scottoiler, 3 or 4 cyl bikes, 20,000 miles is the best I've got ) and at that point the sprockets always look about half gone. But the worn chain will have stretched (that's how you can pull a worn chain away from the rear sprocket, the chain and the sprockets no longer line up right) so it will have caused wear on the sprocket teeth - if the chain never stretched then it'd always fit the sprockets perfectly and there'd be very little wear on the sprockets. It's the chain stretching that wears the sprockets. If you then put a new chain on half-worn sprockets the sprocket teeth will no longer perfectly fit an unstretched chain, and they'll wear it out faster.

If I was running cheap chains I might try getting 2 chains out of one pair of sprockets, because the relative cost of sprockets to chain would be much higher. But given the life of a cheap chain compared to a good O/X ring, and the hassle factor of adjusting a crappy chain all the time, it's a false economy in the longer run (although I did do that when I couldn't afford better at the time.)

echomadman

If you can get one, use a clip type split link and save yourself the price of a riveter. the ninja 250 isn't hard enough on a chain to warrant a rivet link.

edit, just realised this is too late.

rat_race

echomadman wrote: »

If you can get one, use a clip type split link and save yourself the price of a riveter. the ninja 250 isn't hard enough on a chain to warrant a rivet link.

edit, just realised this is too late.

Yeah... Good to know for the future tho!