Higher Penalty Points for Speeding etc, on the way

pa990

3 points for speeding if Leo has his way

http://www.thejournal.ie/changes-to-points-system-will-see-increased-penalties-for-speeding-using-phones-482360-Jun2012/

TRANSPORT MINISTER Leo Varadkar has today published proposals for a review of Ireland’s penalty points system – including proposals to raise the penalties incurred for offences like using a mobile phone while driving.

The Department of Transport’s review proposes to increase the number of penalty points incurred by drivers for using handheld phones while driving, as well as speeding or failing to wear seat belts, from two penalty points to three.

Simultaneously, it also outlines plans to cut the penalties for other offences like driving without a valid NCT, or dangerous parking – intending to reduce the penalty from five points, and a compulsory court appearance, down to three points.

The Department has compared the current points system to similar systems in place in ten other jurisdictions, seeking to decide whether the current sanctions are the best way of improving road safety.

Aside from updating the penalty points model, the review also hopes to result in greater harmony with the penalty points regime operating in Northern Ireland – possibly leading to an eventual system where both jurisdictions will recognise penalty points incurred on either side of the border.

The plans will now be sent forward to the all-party Oireachtas committee on Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht, which will give its thoughts on the changes.

Those which survive the review process will then be incorporated into a new Road Traffic Bill to be published later in the year.

In a statement Varadkar said he wished to ensure “coherence” in the penalties applied to drivers breaking the rules, and avoid circumstances were individual offences could result in disproportionate penalties.

AND

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0611/1224317692318.html

Penalty points review calls for higher points for speeding

DEAGLÁN de BRÉADÚN, Political Correspondent

HIGHER PENALTY points for speeding and for the use of a mobile phone while driving are proposed in a review to be published today by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar.

The report carried out by his department suggests an increase from two to possibly three points for speeding and also urges a steeper penalty for seatbelt offences, The Irish Times has learned.

The review proposes a graduated range of penalty points for speeding, where higher penalty points would apply if the vehicle was travelling substantially over the speed limit.

It recommends new powers for gardaí to impound and sell uninsured cars. The review group also suggests linking the national car test (NCT) to motor tax renewal.

The report also proposes that the severity of several offences be reduced. It recommends the removal of the requirement for a compulsory court appearance for driving a vehicle without an NCT certificate and the imposition of three penalty points instead.

The same recommendation applies for the offence of parking in a dangerous position.

The Minister will consider the report’s recommendations further in consultation with the all-party Joint Oireachtas Transport Committee.

Any changes will be incorporated in the Road Traffic Bill 2012, which is scheduled for publication later this year.

Driving without a seatbelt currently brings four penalty points on conviction in court and a fine of up to €800, while driving while using a mobile phone incurs two penalty points and a fixed charge of €60; this rises to four points and a possible €2,000 fine on conviction in court for non-payment of the fixed charge.

There are plans to introduce mutual recognition of penalty points between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The report also compares Ireland’s penalty point system with 10 other jurisdictions.

It also examines whether the existing system has been effective and proportionate when it comes to improving road safety and reducing injuries and fatalities on the roads.

In total there are more than 40 penalty point offences currently in operation.

I heard Leo wants 5 Penalty points for no NCT.

Max Power1

RVP 11 wrote: »

I heard Leo wants 5 Penalty points for no NCT.

Its that already

TheBody

On the face of it, I've no big problem with increased penalty points for speeding as it really does kill in my opinion. However, as said on this forum many times already, they need to sort out the stupid speed limits on our roads first.

Max Power1

Max Power1 wrote: »

Its that already

Progress...:D

munchkin_utd

Max Power1 wrote: »

Its that already

indeed - thats what the article says.

Along with a statement that it will be REDUCED from 5 to 3 points and no longer requiring a court appearance

which of course tied up a guard for the day too who must appear in person so it costs the taxpayer more in garda wages than the fine a person has to pay - so the biggest looser for driving without an NCT was the taxpayer and the public in general being deprived of a member of the police force for a day.

-Corkie-

I am happy to see the penalty for using the phone increased. They should increase the fine too imo. The amount of people driving whilst texting or talking on the phone is frightening.

djimi

Only a matter of time really before the speeding points went up.

Mycroft H

What of it. Don't speed (or don't get caught). I'm all for harsher penalties for speeding, driving on the phone etc....

kirving

It's a court apperance for no NCT currently?! That's crazy. Why not just test the car immediately. If it is unsafe - court appearance or lots points + big fine. If it's road worthy, small fine to remind you to get it sorted next time.

Shane732

I assume this trying to align us more with the UK system?

AugustusMinimus

Why not put it up to 12 and eradicate speeding over night ? God knows it's the only thing that kills.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why not put it up to 12 and eradicate speeding over night ? God knows it's the only thing that kills.

Aka 55kph in 50kph.

Shane732

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why not put it up to 12 and eradicate speeding over night ? God knows it's the only thing that kills.

Sarcasm?

christmas2012

Speed is the one killer on our roads so i agree with that..But the other stuff like 5 points for the nct i dunno,i think it should be 5 for speeding and 3 for the nct..
Speed is more serious because you make one false move at speed and the car can somersault causing accidents and deaths all over the place.Although i understand the logic of giving penalty points for the nct,as the car could have some dangerous faults.
There are always new drivers passing their test,and making a mockery of the rules,ive seen people aquaplaning (when going too fast on a wet day,the car can slide),and going too fast on bad conditions..

sean1141

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I have a big issue with the way the speeding issue is tackled in this country. The only time I have ever seen a garda speed van is on empty motorways. I haven't ever passed one outside a school or a blackspot area.

yup 8am this morning traffic core car pull on the on ramp of exit 17 on the m7:(

i'll obey the speed limits when they get rid of the stupid ones
like the limit of 30 on a road where you've about 2 seconds to switch to 100 and merge
you can easy do 50 on that one

or all the roads with 80 that could be higher

or all the roads with 80 that should be about 50

how about a few points for the road warriors who sit in the overtaking lane below the speed limit just to make sure nobody goes too fast for them? or because they haven't a clue?

djimi

I would actually be more in favour of a increasing scale of points for speeding, rather than a blanket increase. Something along the lines of 2 points for doing up to 115% the speed limit, 3 points for up to 130% etc. Id love to see the figures but I imagine the majority of people caught speeding are doing no more than 10kmph over the limit? Seems harsh to suggest that someone caught going 85 in an 80 zone deserves the same punishment as somone caught doing 140 in a 100 zone.

AugustusMinimus

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

God knows it's the only thing that kills.

Don't forget carrying a Hurley.:p

pred racer

Just enforce the current regs and they would be fine!
Leo v is a media whore.

This is a prime example of if it works aren't I brilliant,
If it doesnt, drivers are causing carnage(i fcucking hate that word when related to driving) but i was doing my best lads:mad:

And as for the AA on the radio telling me
Its raining.......be careful and slow down.
Its sunny........be careful and slow down
Its windy.........be careful and slow down
Its cold.....
Its a bank holiday weekend.......

Please fcuk right off, I know how to drive.

Sorry for the rant but this **** really pisses me off!

Anan1

I'd like to see a point or two for driving with a light out.

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

Speed is more serious because you make one false move at speed and the car can somersault causing accidents and deaths all over the place...

How many of them do you hear of?
The biggest cause of road deaths in this country are head on collisions.
There are roads that even if you obey the speed limit a head on colllision would kill you, so speed isn't the main issue.
If every car in this country was limited to 80kmh, there would still be road deaths, because of bad driving and lack of concentration.

Zubeneschamali

Increasing the points and penalties is just a publicity stunt unless they increase enforcement where it counts.

And, no, that doesn't mean the open motorway at 10 am on a sunny day.

munchkin_utd

the original report released today with all recommendations is here:
http://www.dttas.ie/uploads/documents/news/Review%20of%20Irish%20Penalty%20POint%20System%20and%20Comparison%20with%20International%20Systems.PDF

from a speed read its very pragmatic in what can be achieved and how easy it it to do so.

i.e. non wearing of seatbelts may get an insane number of points, 6 if you pay the fine or 10 if you let it goto court and fail to pay the fine on time.
Reasoning being its easy to pick up and theres massive non compliance currently.

for no insurance on a vehicle its suggested to just seize the offenders vehicle and sell it rather than waste public resources by compelling a guard to appear in court in person to make a conviction stick. Pure genius!

all in all it seems to be a well copped on document.

piston

People seem to have trouble understanding the difference between breaking speed limits and excessive speed. A few mph over the posted limit is not necessarily dangerous. A few mph under the posted limit may be potentially lethal. It all depends on the prevailing road conditions.

The Irish (and UK for that matter) government are taking what I would consider a sticking plaster approach to road safety. It would be better to train and educate drivers properly and have a bigger Garda presence on the roads to discourage people from acting the eejit but they clearly are working on the theory that accidents will happen but they won't be very serious if they slow everyone down.

The simple biggest problem imo and one which would be very difficult to police is that many people drive around on auto-pilot and don't see any further than the end of their own bonnet. I suppose if they do so at a lower speed, it less dangerous when they hit something.

ardmacha

I would actually be more in favour of a increasing scale of points for speeding, rather than a blanket increase. Something along the lines of 2 points for doing up to 115% the speed limit, 3 points for up to 130% etc. Id love to see the figures but I imagine the majority of people caught speeding are doing no more than 10kmph over the limit? Seems harsh to suggest that someone caught going 85 in an 80 zone deserves the same punishment as somone caught doing 140 in a 100 zone.

This kind of thing would improve public acceptance.

Speed limit points are simplistic, as noted by many here, but complex nuanced solutions with Gardai everywhere are also impossible.

munchkin_utd

another offence is proposed to be dealt with, faulty lights.
Its not a certainty yet but they are looking at issuing a "rectifying notice" by the guards so that people arent caught on the hop with points for a freshly blown bulb.
If the driver doesnt present the car at a garda station within the stated time to show the lights have been fixed they then get the points added to their licence automatically.

seems fair.

Atomic Pineapple

munchkin_utd wrote: »

another offence is proposed to be dealt with, faulty lights.
Its not a certainty yet but they are looking at issuing a "rectifying notice" by the guards so that people arent caught on the hop with points for a freshly blown bulb.
If the driver doesnt present the car at a garda station within the stated time to show the lights have been fixed they then get the points added to their licence automatically.

seems fair.

Faulty lights alone or the idiots who don't know how to/when to turn them on?

pred racer

munchkin_utd wrote: »

another offence is proposed to be dealt with, faulty lights.
Its not a certainty yet but they are looking at issuing a "rectifying notice" by the guards so that people arent caught on the hop with points for a freshly blown bulb.
If the driver doesnt present the car at a garda station within the stated time to show the lights have been fixed they then get the points added to their licence automatically.

seems fair.

That seems both fair and sensible, which is why i doubt we will ever see it!

munchkin_utd

draffodx wrote: »

Faulty lights alone or the idiots who don't know how to/when to turn them on?

aha!
theres also a mention of that too so there is!

You get a point in Victoria Australia for not driving in hazardous conditions or weather with appropriate lights and its recommended to have this in Ireland too.

AugustusMinimus

Shane732 wrote: »

Sarcasm?

No ****

AugustusMinimus

2 points for incorrect lane usage please.

Mr Simpson

draffodx wrote: »

Faulty lights alone or the idiots who don't know how to/when to turn them on?

The amount of Garda cars I've seen driving with faulty lights recently is incredible, including a traffic corp Fiat Ullyses around in Clontarf/Sutton that has had a headlight out for about two weeks at this stage.

ahnowbrowncow

Are there penalty points for eating, drinking or smoking while driving?

People who are smoking and drinking at the same time whilst conversing with passengers is just as if not more dangerous than talking on the phone.

Mr Simpson

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Are there penalty points for eating, drinking or smoking while driving?

People who are smoking and drinking at the same time whilst conversing with passengers is just as if not more dangerous than talking on the phone.

Nope, no penalty points for any of them. Personally I don't agree with the smoking bit. i don't find smoking while driving a distraction, definitely not as much as a phone.

MugMugs

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

Are there penalty points for eating, drinking or smoking while driving?

People who are smoking and drinking at the same time whilst conversing with passengers is just as if not more dangerous than talking on the phone.

Do you propose putting drivers into a sealed capsule when they sit into their seats?

iphone4g

christmas2012 wrote: »

Speed is the one killer on our roads so i agree with that..But the other stuff like 5 points for the nct i dunno,i think it should be 5 for speeding and 3 for the nct..
Speed is more serious because you make one false move at speed and the car can somersault causing accidents and deaths all over the place.Although i understand the logic of giving penalty points for the nct,as the car could have some dangerous faults.
There are always new drivers passing their test,and making a mockery of the rules,ive seen people aquaplaning (when going too fast on a wet day,the car can slide),and going too fast on bad conditions..

Why don't you exaggerate a little bit?
Can you define speed for me,because beleive it or not a half a km per hour is speed

christmas2012

RVP 11 wrote: »

How many of them do you hear of?
The biggest cause of road deaths in this country are head on collisions.
There are roads that even if you obey the speed limit a head on colllision would kill you, so speed isn't the main issue.
If every car in this country was limited to 80kmh, there would still be road deaths, because of bad driving and lack of concentration.

speed is the contributing factor to head on collisions,if a car is speeding you will have less control lets say if you are trying to even simply maintain your position on the road(ie staying within the white line)..

Lets just say for arguments sake there is a big rock or stone or even a uneven bump in the road where you are driving and your wheel hits it at a higher speed,or someone slower pulls out under you and a driver is in the other lane,which you cant move out onto,then youre in trouble..

Speed doesnt help when driving up to hazards,you are not giving yourself 1 enough time 2 or enough space , to react and manouvre with ease accordingly..

christmas2012

christmas2012 wrote: »

RVP 11 wrote: »

How many of them do you hear of?
The biggest cause of road deaths in this country are head on collisions.
There are roads that even if you obey the speed limit a head on colllision would kill you, so speed isn't the main issue.
If every car in this country was limited to 80kmh, there would still be road deaths, because of bad driving and lack of concentration.

speed is the contributing factor to head on collisions,if a car is speeding you will have less control lets say if you are trying to even simply maintain your position on the road(ie staying within the white line)..

Lets just say for arguments sake there is a big rock or stone or even a uneven bump in the road where you are driving and your wheel hits it at a higher speed,or someone slower pulls out under you and a driver is in the other lane,which you cant move out onto,then youre in trouble..

Speed doesnt help when driving up to hazards,you are not giving yourself 1 enough time 2 or enough space , to react and manouvre with ease accordingly..

Careless driving is the contributing factor to head on collisions too, speed may also be a contributing factor, but it's not the x factor

Eric Cartman

I wonder how many lives are saved by this governments position on speeding considering the only places ive encountered a speed camera in the last year are

1) on the n4 near liffey valley
2) on the n7
3) outside james's gate brewery at 1-3am

If they start putting cameras places that are actually dangerous instead of just using them as a revenue cash cow then maybe people would take speeding seriously.

also that stretch of the n4 should be atleast 100km/h if not 120 , and the 2 lanes of the m50 should be atleast 140-160

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchkin_utd
another offence is proposed to be dealt with, faulty lights.
Its not a certainty yet but they are looking at issuing a "rectifying notice" by the guards so that people arent caught on the hop with points for a freshly blown bulb.
If the driver doesnt present the car at a garda station within the stated time to show the lights have been fixed they then get the points added to their licence automatically.

seems fair.

That seems both fair and sensible, which is why i doubt we will ever see it!



actually there was a book of tickets for this exact thing up until about 8 or 9 years ago, when they took away the old paper books and went with technology.

you get to nominate which station to bring your fixed car to for inspection, within a certain time limit.
would be great to see it coming back.

Reg'stoy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wonder how many lives are saved by this governments position on speeding considering the only places ive encountered a speed camera in the last year are

1) on the n4 near liffey valley
2) on the n7
3) outside james's gate brewery at 1-3am

If they start putting cameras places that are actually dangerous instead of just using them as a revenue cash cow then maybe people would take speeding seriously.

also that stretch of the n4 should be atleast 100km/h if not 120 , and the 2 lanes of the m50 should be atleast 140-160

Have twice seen a Garda van southside of the Blackchurch Inn on the Naas road in the last two months, last occasion was the fri evening of the May bank holiday weekend and prior to that it was also a fri afternoon; on both times traffic could not be described as light, yet no doubt people were caught speeding.

Only this morning I saw a traffic corp jeep parked up on their observation spot just before the airport flyover heading south on the M1. This is rightly an 80kph limit area as you have traffic filtering on from the airport heading into town and traffic filtering off on to the M50/N32 (both cross each other). Hopefully the people who think it is ok to stay in the right lane at 100kph and wait till the last moment to cross three lanes of traffic so avoiding the queue onto the M50 might think twice for the next few days thanks to the presence of the jeep.

As for the N4 at Liffey Valley, I travel this every day and believe me attempting to filter across for the Liffey Valley exit after joining from the M50 can be slighty trying considering the lack of consideration from other drivers. Again on the city bound side you have traffic trying to filter from the liffey valley on ramp across three lanes to get southbound onto the M50. 60kph for that short distance is not asking a whole lot to allow that safely happen.

I have seen a Garda van just after the westbound exit for the liffey valley again 80kph here is not too taxing considering the junctions prior to it. These vans were there during the morning 'rush hour' (not 1-3am) when they would be at their most 'dangerous'.

So there is my experience of Speed vans and traffic corp jeeps in places I would consider them to be necessary.

As for the van at 1-3am outside Guinness's, well if they really wanted a cash cow, why not put a van on the M1 northbound after the airport where they would catch 99% of people breaking the temporary 60kph limit.

We are all adults at the end of the day and if we choose to exceed limits knowing we might get caught well be it on our own heads.

*waits for the obligatory high horse and speed camera apologist comments

MugMugs

Nobody disputes that if you do the crime you pay the fine reg but the points being made are that a lot of positioning is done so with revenue in mind over "saving lives"

Borderfox

There is usually one on griffith avenue just before scoil mhuire, a garda plain one and amazingly enough its there during school time. On the flip side to that efforts by the gardai to speed check and tax check motorists onto the M3 toll section makes you wonder what the motivation is.

opti0nal

MugMugs wrote: »

Nobody disputes that if you do the crime you pay the fine reg but the points being made are that a lot of positioning is done so with revenue in mind over "saving lives"

No, it's about putting law-breakers off the road so that the rest of us can travel safely.

Look at this DHL guy....taken with my dash-cam...I'm already stopped at the lights, he passes me and just ignore the red, even though traffic is already flowing on the other road. Maybe his employer is putting him under too much pressure?



Let's get real. People ignore safety rules and put others in danger because the chances of being caught and the consequences are not a deterrent.

Reg'stoy

MugMugs wrote: »

Nobody disputes that if you do the crime you pay the fine reg but the points being made are that a lot of positioning is done so with revenue in mind over "saving lives"

If that's the perception of some (from their experience) that's fair enough, but I think the majority of us would agree that on occasion!! (particularly in my experience and maybe their's) that certain locations can be viewed in a positive light.

I was simply posting that I have seen both vans and a Garda presence where they were of a benifit. I'm personally not convinced about the 'revenue' issue but we'll agree to differ there. I think that to keep the discussion balanced, those of us who have seen vans in 'good' locations should also post that information.

Just because a road is clear at 3 o'clock in the morning doesn't necessarily mean that the limit should be seen with a nod 'n' a wink, in much the same way that at 3 in the morning if the light is red, but I can see it's clear; I can stay going. In both situations you make (I hope) an educated, adult choice but sometimes choices have consequences.

I'm not pontificating (it may seem so) above, I'm simply saying that just because someone thinks they should get away with something, means they should.

galwaytt

christmas2012 wrote: »

Speed is the one killer on our roads so i agree with that..But the other stuff like 5 points for the nct i dunno,i think it should be 5 for speeding and 3 for the nct..
Speed is more serious because you make one false move at speed and the car can somersault causing accidents and deaths all over the place.Although i understand the logic of giving penalty points for the nct,as the car could have some dangerous faults.
There are always new drivers passing their test,and making a mockery of the rules,ive seen people aquaplaning (when going too fast on a wet day,the car can slide),and going too fast on bad conditions..

Jeebus H Christ. What nonsense. Official statistics clearly show that breaking the speed limit only accounts for..less than 10% ?.. of accidents.

If you cant tell the difference between breaking the speed limit and driving at the wrong speed, then do us a favour, and hand back the licence.....

FFS, how long do we have to listen to that Speed = Bad BS.

paddy147

Time for Gay Byrne to be rolled out again???:pac:

Imagine doing (or trying to do) 25 kph on the M1 motorway for 3 kilometers where they are widening both sides of the M1.

Going from 80kph down to 25 kph isnt going to cause any problems now,is it??:eek:

opti0nal

galwaytt wrote: »

Jeebus H Christ. What nonsense. Official statistics clearly show that breaking the speed limit only accounts for..less than 10% ?.. of accidents.

Source please?

MugMugs

opti0nal wrote: »

No, it's about putting law-breakers off the road so that the rest of us can travel safely.

Hi There..... I'd like to shake your hand. You're clearly a person who has never put a foot wrong in their life whilst driving and for that sir, I salute you. Well done.


Ps - Wtf has that DHL van got to do with me saying that camera's are placed for revenue reasons?

Reg'stoy

Folks the document we're refering to on this thread was posted earlier and having scanned through it (only 62 pages long) I found it very informative. I won't quote percentages as statistics but it does kind of debunk a previous poster.

Others will be delighted to see it does refer to the fact that some limits on certain roads are worth reviewing, it also mentions a doubling of points for those caught going 40KPH over a posted limit.

Scarily it breaks down the numbers caught per offence and the points given or not. For the offence of driving without insurance, there were some 1200 offences and guess what some 1200 people got no points because they had out of state licences. Some pretty serious offences it seems are been committed by out of state licence holders going by the points NOT actually given to the offenders.

As for the '25KPH' limit mentioned, I could find no reference to it, but there's no surpise that some knickers have cut off circulation to certain legs at the very mention of it on the interweb/papers.