Ryanair Pilots in Aer Lingus

LeftBase

I was talking by chance(as in bumped into at friend's family function) to a retired Aer Lingus Captain and I took the chance to get some info from him. I told him about my hopes etc etc.
I'll cut a long story short. He said that if you work for Ryanair Aer Lingus, and I quote "wont touch you with a barge pole". Is this an old time opinion/fact, or is this actually the case?

And for those who work in Aer Lingus, where do the guys that come in DE come from? Are they newly minted fATPLs, or do they come from other airlines? And if so which airlines? I would be interested to know what sort of mix there is in there.

Jesus Nut

DE's come from Aer Arann, Easy Jet or else Oxford or Jerez it seems!
A few guys got in from aeromadrid who at the time had the best integrated course going because they did 60 hours on the A320 sim for MCC/JOC!

adamski8

Is the reason because fr pilots have experience in flying a different make of plane?

LeftBase

Jesus Nut wrote: »

DE's come from Aer Arann, Easy Jet or else Oxford or Jerez it seems!
A few guys got in from aeromadrid who at the time had the best integrated course going because they did 60 hours on the A320 sim for MCC/JOC!

So no Ryanair then?

Lustrum

It would be a pity if that was the attitude in Aer Lingus. Ryanair may not be great from a customers point of view, but for a pilot, it must be the best job in Europe to gain experience. ALs gatwick pilots fly (as far as I am aware) 3 routes only, compared to the potentially 40-odd that Ryanair's Dublin based pilots fly - it opens them up to a whole lot more experience of flying into different fields, encountering different ATC, weather etc.

The companies may not like each other, but there's no way AL can look down on the Ryanair pilots and think they're not good enough

LeftBase

Lustrum wrote: »

It would be a pity if that was the attitude in Aer Lingus. Ryanair may not be great from a customers point of view, but for a pilot, it must be the best job in Europe to gain experience. ALs gatwick pilots fly (as far as I am aware) 3 routes only, compared to the potentially 40-odd that Ryanair's Dublin based pilots fly - it opens them up to a whole lot more experience of flying into different fields, encountering different ATC, weather etc.

The companies may not like each other, but there's no way AL can look down on the Ryanair pilots and think they're not good enough

All that's true and in line with what I was thinking. However I know from general chatter that Aer Lingus are ending up with a lot of non irish crew who are not "sustainable" as for example any British guys or Europeans will leave when their flag carrier opens up for them. Did Willie Walsh not pass comment about BA getting cheap A320 rated British pilots from Aer Lingus? There are a lot of Irish FR FOs who would gladly take a job with Aer Lingus and settle in Ireland to see out their career. That would serve everyone's interests would it not?

IngazZagni

I think only a handful have gone from FR to EI in recent times from what I've heard anyway. Obviously EI management have a strong hatred and I also heard from some (so it may r may not be true) that the EI line trainers gave the FR DE's a really rough ride.

It's nothing to do with quality as would be shown with the hundreds of former FR drivers in Emirates, Etihad and various other legacy carriers.

LeftBase

IngazZagni wrote: »

I think only a handful have gone from FR to EI in recent times from what I've heard anyway. Obviously EI management have a strong hatred and I also heard from some (so it may r may not be true) that the EI line trainers gave the FR DE's a really rough ride.

It's nothing to do with quality as would be shown with the hundreds of former FR drivers in Emirates, Etihad and various other legacy carriers.

EI's attitude in general in the pilot recruitment arena seems some what negative.....

MoeJay

Quite a few ex-FR guys plying their trade in EI now. In fact it wasn't so long ago that EI pilots on unpaid leave ended up flying under contract for FR!

Lustrum

There may also be the flip side where the Dublin based FR guys might have no interest in moving to AL - after all they're currently on a 5 on/4 off roster, the Ryanair captains are (I'm sure) on good money, and moving to AL could mean getting based in Gatwick or even worse, Cork (:D) and having a not as attractive roster.

Who's to know for sure what goes on in a recruiters brain, if I knew I'd have a job by now!

basill

There appears to be a lot of unsubstantiated statements being made which others are picking up on and touting as fact. Here is my take on the current recruitment "strategy" - and I use that last word loosely.

Back in 2007 during the boom EI hadn't hired in a long time and were severely undercrewed. There were massive issues with crewing, new routes and new airframes and a lot of people took their eyes off the ball (commercial ops mainly) which meant that EI had to recruit heavily in a relatively short space of time. In order to achieve this they firstly called back the cadets that were let go after 9/11. Then they looked for rated A320 pilots (easier to train and get onto the line in theory). Then they recruited other experienced pilots (again easier to train in theory as they had already passed a type rating and had line flying experience). These were the Easy, FR and Aer Arrann people amongst others. Finally they went back to Oxford and Jerez and selected from the ab initio pool as well as some modular trained people as well.

As you are all well aware there has been no "boom" nor is one predicted for the forseeable future. Any recruitment that AL has had to do since the 2007 splurge has been on a much much smaller scale. They got lucky and were in the right time and place to pick up the ex CTC/Easy cadets for the LGW base.

Presently they are being very choosey and going down the route of their own cadet scheme for future recruitment needs.

Time will tell if the strategy changes at all. Stranger things have happened and should the Etihad negotiations conclude positively for AL then there might well be some expansion to come and the need for recruitment.

But I don't see that they are negatively biased in any way towards FR pilots. More that they prefer to get low timers and train them up from scratch.

LeftBase

basill wrote: »

There appears to be a lot of unsubstantiated statements being made which others are picking up on and touting as fact. Here is my take on the current recruitment "strategy" - and I use that last word loosely.

Back in 2007 during the boom EI hadn't hired in a long time and were severely undercrewed. There were massive issues with crewing, new routes and new airframes and a lot of people took their eyes off the ball (commercial ops mainly) which meant that EI had to recruit heavily in a relatively short space of time. In order to achieve this they firstly called back the cadets that were let go after 9/11. Then they looked for rated A320 pilots (easier to train and get onto the line in theory). Then they recruited other experienced pilots (again easier to train in theory as they had already passed a type rating and had line flying experience). These were the Easy, FR and Aer Arrann people amongst others. Finally they went back to Oxford and Jerez and selected from the ab initio pool as well as some modular trained people as well.

As you are all well aware there has been no "boom" nor is one predicted for the forseeable future. Any recruitment that AL has had to do since the 2007 splurge has been on a much much smaller scale. They got lucky and were in the right time and place to pick up the ex CTC/Easy cadets for the LGW base.

Presently they are being very choosey and going down the route of their own cadet scheme for future recruitment needs.

Time will tell if the strategy changes at all. Stranger things have happened and should the Etihad negotiations conclude positively for AL then there might well be some expansion to come and the need for recruitment.

But I don't see that they are negatively biased in any way towards FR pilots. More that they prefer to get low timers and train them up from scratch.

It may be unsubstantiated, but is there not a general perception that EI is very biased in it's recruitment? Examples being an unfair fixation on Oxford and Jerez even though stats(real ones not the ones they give you) suggest that their graduates have the same pass/fail rate on average as the rest of the schools? Not to mention the condescending attitude of one of their people at the recent FLYER exhibition to modular students. I mean stories circulate about guys with a lot of hours being asked to sit aptitude tests after interview that cadets sit even though they may hold an a320/330 rating already with a few 1000 hours on type. Surely they have the aptitude and have shown that already? And this isnt just the personality test they ask them to take.
Does EI not have a crewing problem now? Were people not on strike over rosters being too tight etc? I would imagine a former FR pilot with a few 1000 EY A330 hours under his belt would be attractive to Aer Lingus. Am I wrong? Because I believe they have turned Irish guys who want to come home from the East away.

Milan Cobian

O'learys ploys has severely undermined conditions for pilots across Europe. Everyone else must cut to survive. Ryanair pilots, rightly or wrongly, are seen by others as having willingly accepted it and gone along with it. This may not elicit good feelings by pilots of other carriers affected.

Zyox

Know of a few guys who've left RYR over the last few years and are now in EI.

HR in EI is quite interesting when it comes to pilots as someone has said before, and I've heard a few people convey the theory that pilots interviews were used to make a point to management by HR that they were needed as a permanent department to avoid being outsourced. Hence hundreds of interviews took place for a few spots just to show "oh look you need us to wade through all this" when in fact in about 4 days they could have filled the positions perfectly. Strange place in there with HR.

Another point with the move from RYR to EI is that there's 2 contracts on offer for FOs I remember being told. Could be wrong on this. DUB and ORK are Irish contracts and BFS and LGW are British i.e. paid in sterling. The money is not as good starting off in the right seat and if you have a nice 5/4 in RYR somewhere close to home or at home you're not going to want to move to Belfast or Gatwick on a worse roster, worse pay, and you're stuck there for 5 years until your contract runs up! (That's the bit I'll stand corrected on - would like verification on that!)

Different strokes for different folks but sometimes the RYR system works for people and going into EI to LGW for a random roster with lower pay and a difficult commute might not be what you want.

Stovepipe

You would be as well trying to read the entrails of a chicken as trying to understand EI's pilot recruitment policy. this is the company that flip-flopped between Perth, jerez, Oxford, Vero Beach, modular versus integrated, long interview process versus short process, locals versus foreigners, Nordies versus southerners and so on. One thing it hasn't been is definitive! One training captain, from North of the Border, was castigated by his fellow recruiters as follows; next time you head out looking for recruits, try turning right out of the gate instead of always turning left............the scarcest type in EI is a white, Catholic, Irish passport holder, who is not ex-Air Corps or Ex-Ryanair.

regards
Stovepipe

Lustrum

Milan Cobian wrote: »

O'learys ploys has severely undermined conditions for pilots across Europe. Everyone else must cut to survive. Ryanair pilots, rightly or wrongly, are seen by others as having willingly accepted it and gone along with it. This may not elicit good feelings by pilots of other carriers affected.

While this may be true, imagine what it's like as a newly qualified CPL/IR trying to get a job. There's very few airlines willing to look at you, and the big one that will give you a chance is Ryanair. It's not a case of willingly accepting the t&c's, it's a case of taking what you are offered when the alternative is reading Virgin's recruitment ad and wondering how to get the 3000hrs that they want for their f/o holding pool!

Milan Cobian

While this may be true, imagine what it's like as a newly qualified CPL/IR trying to get a job. There's very few airlines willing to look at you, and the big one that will give you a chance is Ryanair.

No argument there. It's the subsequent disinterest that raises eyebrows.

Paxi_R6

LeftBase wrote: »

I was talking by chance(as in bumped into at friend's family function) to a retired Aer Lingus Captain and I took the chance to get some info from him. I told him about my hopes etc etc.
I'll cut a long story short. He said that if you work for Ryanair Aer Lingus, and I quote "wont touch you with a barge pole". Is this an old time opinion/fact, or is this actually the case?

And for those who work in Aer Lingus, where do the guys that come in DE come from? Are they newly minted fATPLs, or do they come from other airlines? And if so which airlines? I would be interested to know what sort of mix there is in there.

Well He may be wrong ,A Ryanair pilot I know got hired for AL awhile back .............Maybe years ago Ryanair pilots were looked down upon ,But not to todays standards .

McNulty737

not true....ei took a good few from fr during last years recruitment....i have a couple of friends that made the switch.

cuterob

McNulty737 wrote: »

not true....ei took a good few from fr during last years recruitment....i have a couple of friends that made the switch.

how'd they find the switch? company wise and switching to the airbus?

Bearcat

No probs.....grand lads

LeftBase

Question for the EI guys here. Are there many guys that come in due to their TR from the likes of Easyjet, Wizz Air etc?

yaeger

Leftbase , I persume you mean are there guys that come from other airbus operators pre bus rated ! In which case yes of course there is, quiet a few have flown previously for easy/wizz/BA/Mon/TC to name but a few so Yes ..
Not sure why Bearcat is saying Nope unless I misunderstood the question, If by many your looking for numbers and are they in the majority I have no idea.

LeftBase

yaeger wrote: »

Leftbase , I persume you mean are there guys that come from other airbus operators pre bus rated ! In which case yes of course there is, quiet a few have flown previously for easy/wizz/BA/Mon/TC to name but a few so Yes ..
Not sure why Bearcat is saying Nope unless I misunderstood the question, If by many your looking for numbers and are they in the majority I have no idea.

Yes that is what I was asking. I used Easyjet and Wizz as they were just 2 examples of airlines I had heard Irish guys were flying in. Monarch, Thomas Cook and one unsubstantiated claim of a former JetBlue pilot were others.

Bearcat

Yeah mis read question....sorry