Dublin Bus 32 redundancies; €15m savings & Pay Freeze

dublinman1990

Even IE are managing to cut 450 staff from their workforce, the staff cuts in DB seen to be very low in this plan. I suppose the savings of €15 million will be enough for it to break even if you take in the after effects of ND.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0608/dublin-bus-tells-staff-of-cuts-to-save-15m.html

According to this plan; the 32 job cuts by DB are going to be counted as non-management and non administration positions.

Figures of the fuel costs costing an extra €14 million & and losing passener revenue of €49 million euro is a very big challenge to see through in this very tough times.

More questions though; how much does the Leap Card costs and loss of advertising revenue amount to in this plan.

devnull

So basically it sounds similar to the Bus Eireann one.

What do these 32 jobs entail, I'd be interested to see where they would get such a small number from, they have obviously identified some areas.

clunked

Are there still 32 former conductors hanging around?

The_Wrecker

clunked wrote: »

Are there still 32 former conductors hanging around?

TPO's there the new brake light inspectors for am pull outs!

foggy_lad

The_Wrecker wrote: »

TPO's there the new brake light inspectors for am pull outs!

Are you fecking serious? brake light inspectors:D:D:D why not have them set up a bus pit area for cleaning the windscreen and checking the oil and tyres while they are at it?

The_Wrecker

Rehab staff also to help with 'walk around' checks. (all bulbs on rear)

cleveland browne

devnull wrote: »

So basically it sounds similar to the Bus Eireann one.

What do these 32 jobs entail, I'd be interested to see where they would get such a small number from, they have obviously identified some areas.

4 executive positions ( probably already vacant or soon to retire)
15 Inspectors (Instead of getting them out to protect the massive fare evasion they are going to pay them off)
The rest are made up of maintenance positions following a review of maintenance.

They are however keeping the Chief Inspectors who don't actually really have any job to do. They are also keeping 95% of the management positions despite the fact that they are top heavy with management with new layers put in during the celtic tiger years.

They want to recruit a panel of part time ticket checkers from the Driving grade.

Pay freeze till december 2014 that will have been 7 years by then

Self certified sick days cut from 7 to 2

Holidays capped at 23 days

Monitoring equipment to be installed across the fleet to monitor driver behaviour

First 3 days sick with not be paid

Sickness benefit to be reduced to 70% for 4 weeks 60% for 8 weeeks 50% for 14 weeks.

Attendance and Safe Driving awards scrapped

All Schedules to be reviewed to take account of current loading.

Overtime and Restday work Monday to Saturday to be paid at flat rate

Overtime and Restday work on Sunday to be paid at Double time

Bank Holidays to be Paid as Double time instead of Treble time. ( remember you get a days pay even if you don't work so effectively working a bank holiday is just a flat days pay.)

Shift pay won't be paid unless there is at least a three hour difference in duty start times.

Late breaks wont be paid unless the amount of late breaks brings your average work day over 5 weeks to 7 hours 38 minutes. If you have 45 minutes for a break you have to come back on time irrespective of how late your break starts. ( 45 minutes of a break is not much for some one driving for upto nearly 10 hours considering you have to get yourself to the canteen and back which can be 10/15 minutes depending on terminus/handover location.)

No travelling time if the start and finish is the same place no matter where that is.


Thats about it

dublinman1990

cleveland browne wrote: »

No travelling time if the start and finish is the same place no matter where that is.

What does this term, ''Travelling time'' mean if you are a bus driver?

spareman

dublinman1990 wrote: »

What does this term, ''Travelling time'' mean if you are a bus driver?

Its a payment made for traveling outside the garage to start work, eg. a Donnybrook driver is paid 30 mins to travel to the city center or 45 mins to travel to dun loaghaire.

dublinman1990

spareman wrote: »

Its a payment made for traveling outside the garage to start work, eg. a Donnybrook driver is paid 30 mins to travel to the city center or 45 mins to travel to dun loaghaire.

Do you know how much is the rate of pay?

Also; is that followed in the same way as in the other CIE companies?

The_Wrecker

No travelling time if the start and finish is the same place no matter where that is.

Correct, no money is paid if you start and finish in the same place. If you start and finish in different locations you get the money.

CC is 26mins added to the bills
D/L is 45mins paid
BRAY is paid at 1hr

n97 mini

cleveland browne wrote: »

Self certified sick days cut from 7 to 2

I overheard our bus driver talking to a passenger friend about this one yesterday. Very irate. Saying if the management attempt to bring it in there will be industrial action.

AngryLips

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Even IE are managing to cut 450 staff from their workforce, the staff cuts in DB seen to be very low in this plan.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that, unlike BE or IE, DB had gone through a redundancy programme a few years ago when the recession first kicked in?

Losty Dublin

By the sounds of this, Stagecoach have already taken over.

cleveland browne wrote: »

4 executive positions ( probably already vacant or soon to retire)
15 Inspectors (Instead of getting them out to protect the massive fare evasion they are going to pay them off)
The rest are made up of maintenance positions following a review of maintenance.

They are however keeping the Chief Inspectors who don't actually really have any job to do. They are also keeping 95% of the management positions despite the fact that they are top heavy with management with new layers put in during the celtic tiger years.

They want to recruit a panel of part time ticket checkers from the Driving grade.

Pay freeze till december 2014 that will have been 7 years by then

Self certified sick days cut from 7 to 2

Holidays capped at 23 days

Monitoring equipment to be installed across the fleet to monitor driver behaviour

First 3 days sick with not be paid

Sickness benefit to be reduced to 70% for 4 weeks 60% for 8 weeeks 50% for 14 weeks.

Attendance and Safe Driving awards scrapped

All Schedules to be reviewed to take account of current loading.

Overtime and Restday work Monday to Saturday to be paid at flat rate

Overtime and Restday work on Sunday to be paid at Double time

Bank Holidays to be Paid as Double time instead of Treble time. ( remember you get a days pay even if you don't work so effectively working a bank holiday is just a flat days pay.)

Shift pay won't be paid unless there is at least a three hour difference in duty start times.

Late breaks wont be paid unless the amount of late breaks brings your average work day over 5 weeks to 7 hours 38 minutes. If you have 45 minutes for a break you have to come back on time irrespective of how late your break starts. ( 45 minutes of a break is not much for some one driving for upto nearly 10 hours considering you have to get yourself to the canteen and back which can be 10/15 minutes depending on terminus/handover location.)

No travelling time if the start and finish is the same place no matter where that is.


Thats about it

dublinman1990

AngryLips wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that, unlike BE or IE, DB had gone through a redundancy programme a few years ago when the recession first kicked in?

Correct, A redundancy scheme for both voluntarily and permanent employees had kicked in 2009 & 2010.

2009 - 290 redundancies (130 of them are permanent)
2010 - 150 redundancies

And now in 2012, an extra 32 being made redundant.

That is a total of 472 being unemployed with 160 being voluntary redundancies made in 2009.

The permanent total would be 342 people off DB.

AlekSmart

cleveland browne wrote: »

4 executive positions ( probably already vacant or soon to retire)
15 Inspectors (Instead of getting them out to protect the massive fare evasion they are going to pay them off)
The rest are made up of maintenance positions following a review of maintenance.

Snip /Snip /Snip

Thats about it

It's important ro remember that the document in question is a Dublin Bus management cost reduction "Plan".

The company are now engaging with the Trade Unions and Staff Associations in the negotiation process with a declared completion date of 13th August.

There will now be a period of "Sitzkrieg" or phoney-war whilst the two "sides" get down to the real issues.

However there are also issues surounding the approach taken by management which continues to somewhat undermine the chances of Network Direct delivering on its significant proposed benefits.

There are significant differences in the field-of-play this time around which may well take these negotiations away in a different direction.

There really are serious questions surrounding elements such as the 47 and 84 decisions forced through in recent weeks,against virtually all best advice from the front-line staff who supposedly are the root cause of the companys ills ?

Interesting times ahead

rx8

cleveland browne wrote: »

Thats about it

You forgot to mention that the Company also wants to withdraw it's contribution to the Income Continuance Scheme,which will force a lot of drivers out of the scheme, and subsequently out of work, and maybe even their homes if they are unlucky enough to come down with some form of long term illness.

There are lots of other schemes that cost the company money too, and I think the unions should insist on everything being on the table.
They also spend enormous sums building offices for managers who are never around, and needlessly waste money just for the sake of spending their budgets.

Makes me sick to see wanton waste by people who don't have a clue what's going on in the real world.

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

By the sounds of this, Stagecoach have already taken over.

Welcome to the real world

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

Welcome to the real world

If by the real world you mean paying what are in essense safety critical staff minimal wages and stripping away much of their working conditions, allowances, breaks, sick leave etc to the marrow then very little on the list will come close to being discussed, let alone agreed.

devnull

There are some conditions which should not be removed I agree. I say that having no connection to any of these companies and looking at it from someone who has worked both in the public, and private sector.

However there are a few of them which should be reduced, uncertified sick leave is all but gone in 95% of companies in the state because of the number of people who view it as several days extra holiday is unacceptable.

No problem with people being paid for certified sick leave at all, but the majority of companies these days are not even paying that, just the way things have gone in this country because of the times we are in. But uncertified should be cut back, because like it or not, there are many people who abuse it. Most companies you're also lucky to get more than 20 holiday days per annum, lucky to get shift pay, treble time is virtually unheard of.

I wouldn't scrap safe driving awards, I wouldn't sack ticket inspectors as there needs to be more ticket checks, I'd get rid of some management instead and overtime being paid at flat rate to Monday to Saturday I wouldn't be happy with either nor would I be happy about what they plan on to do with breaks.

The pay freeze is unfortunate but at the same time I know many of my friends who have not had pay rises for the same amount of time.

The fact is that despite after this, the conditions that CIE drivers would get, would still be vastly superior to what the rest of that gets. If they don't like it they are free to ssek another job elsewhere. I know it personally affects you as you have family ties with CIE, but you need to think outside the box and the bigger picture.

A strike by Bus Eireann and Irish Rail in particular would be very foolish, it'll just hurt the company even more.

AngryLips

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If by the real world you mean paying what are in essense safety critical staff minimal wages and stripping away much of their working conditions, allowances, breaks, sick leave etc to the marrow then very little on the list will come close to being discussed, let alone agreed.

What's wrong with bringing DB terms in line with the private sector? Safety is a total red herring in this discussion.

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

There are some conditions which should not be removed I agree. I say that having no connection to any of these companies and looking at it from someone who has worked both in the public, and private sector.

However there are a few of them which should be reduced, uncertified sick leave is all but gone in 95% of companies in the state because of the number of people who view it as several days extra holiday is unacceptable.

No problem with people being paid for certified sick leave at all, but the majority of companies these days are not even paying that, just the way things have gone in this country because of the times we are in. But uncertified should be cut back, because like it or not, there are many people who abuse it. Most companies you're also lucky to get more than 20 holiday days per annum, lucky to get shift pay, treble time is virtually unheard of.

I wouldn't scrap safe driving awards, I wouldn't sack ticket inspectors as there needs to be more ticket checks, I'd get rid of some management instead and overtime being paid at flat rate to Monday to Saturday I wouldn't be happy with either nor would I be happy about what they plan on to do with breaks.

The pay freeze is unfortunate but at the same time I know many of my friends who have not had pay rises for the same amount of time.

The fact is that despite after this, the conditions that CIE drivers would get, would still be vastly superior to what the rest of that gets. If they don't like it they are free to ssek another job elsewhere. I know it personally affects you as you have family ties with CIE, but you need to think outside the box and the bigger picture.

A strike by Bus Eireann and Irish Rail in particular would be very foolish, it'll just hurt the company even more.

Uncertified sick leave is still there in all state and semi-state agencies but most have it reduced to 3-5 days per year on a rolling 3 year period but C.I.E. group still think 7+ days a year is acceptible, they also have what are known as privilage or travel days for some of the bank holidays where they get an extra day off to facilitate travelling over the bank holiday.

I think the certified sick leave should be left at something like 60-70% from the start for 16 weeks and the first three days should never be paid by any company.

Shift allowances, meal allowances etc should all be abolished along with allowances for working from a different depot, if you start at one depot you should be finishing at the same depot, this is something management are paid to sort out and if they cant they should be sacked for incompetance and replaced with people who can do the job!. Bank holidays should be paid at normal overtime rates except for specials like new years day and Easter Monday which should have a very basic skeleton service of drivers and a few inspectors only and paid at triple time. office staff should never be paid overtime for bank holidays as they are not essential to work on those days.

Cap holidays across all staff and management at 25 paid days with a further 10 days available by arrangement but unpaid!

I agree that a strike would be bad, VERY BAD, but not for the company! it would be catastrophic for the staff on strike who would be seen as moneygrabbing leeches and regarded similarly to the WBankers who got us in this mess.

devnull

Frequently, particularly in the UK especially on the railways whenever there is some discussion about pay and conditions relating to any possible strike, it's often then portrayed to the press about being in relation to safety, or sometimes reported that people are going on strike about "Pay and Safety" which is little more than a red herring.

The_Wrecker

AngryLips wrote: »

What's wrong with bringing DB terms in line with the private sector? Safety is a total red herring in this discussion.

Driving standards have raised in this company over the last decade. Losing the €250 bonus tokens. Bringing in lower paid staff with no extras or 'perks'. Sick pay and critical illness. New staff needing to be CPC qualified for a lower contract.
But there is sixteen points on the wishlist. Eight will be discussed and tweaked and the rest will return in a few years yet again.

SandyfordGuy

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Driving standards have raised in this company over the last decade. Losing the €250 bonus tokens. Bringing in lower paid staff with no extras or 'perks'. Sick pay and critical illness. New staff needing to be CPC qualified for a lower contract.
But there is sixteen points on the wishlist. Eight will be discussed and tweaked and the rest will return in a few years yet again.

CPC is required from all operators, Not just those part of CIE. It's funny we should see one person on here moaning about safety, and now another person moaning about a course being required to improve safety.

Driver CPC details below.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Professional-Drivers/Driver-Hours/

Newer staff being on less wages, well that is not surprising either, happening in many companies all over the country. The alternative would be to pay at old rates, based on the highest rates in the company, when the company is losing money, or reduce the rates of the older staff (can really see that being accepted).

Losty Dublin

AngryLips wrote: »

What's wrong with bringing DB terms in line with the private sector? Safety is a total red herring in this discussion.

Safety is a key factor here when safe driving schemes are being cut, breaks are not being honoured, drivers are not being replaced, experienced drivers are taken from duties, rest periods and holidays are being cut, pressure is increased on drivers to work excessive hours by lowering pay rates, increasing overtime hours with no fair reward for doing same, cutting sick day conditions thus pressuring drivers to work when unfit, etc etc.

While there are those who may well say that this and that is done in the private sector, that isn't going to be a fair rationale to follow suit. This time of year, many private hire coach drivers will drive 70+ hour weeks with no regard for rest time/day. Some UK firms employ part time drivers who, after travel times which are unpaid, are earning for 4 hour days for 6-7 hour days or working part time on top of other jobs with little regard for working time directives.

I've no interest per se in this except as that of a passenger who'd rather be one of 80 people moved from A to B by a driver who is fit for duty and not sick or pressurised over a driver who's knackered, hungry, medically unwell and not alert on the road. I sure you would too.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Safety is a key factor here when safe driving schemes are being cut, breaks are not being honoured, drivers are not being replaced, experienced drivers are taken from duties, rest periods and holidays are being cut, pressure is increased on drivers to work excessive hours by lowering pay rates, increasing overtime hours with no fair reward for doing same, cutting sick day conditions thus pressuring drivers to work when unfit, etc etc.

While there are those who may well say that this and that is done in the private sector, that isn't going to be a fair rationale to follow suit. This time of year, many private hire coach drivers will drive 70+ hour weeks with no regard for rest time/day. Some UK firms employ part time drivers who, after travel times which are unpaid, are earning for 4 hour days for 6-7 hour days or working part time on top of other jobs with little regard for working time directives.

I've no interest per se in this except as that of a passenger who'd rather be one of 80 people moved from A to B by a driver who is fit for duty and not sick or pressurised over a driver who's knackered, hungry, medically unwell and not alert on the road. I sure you would too.

Why is safety more an issue with C.I.E. companies than with the thousands of drivers across the country working for private companies? Are all the private companies taking chances with safety? are C.I.E. drivers and "safety critical" staff holding their companies to ransom?

C.I.E. are going to comply with the law and will not force drivers to go beyond their driving time in work!

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Safety is a key factor here when safe driving schemes are being cut breaks are not being honoured, drivers are not being replaced,

These are genuine issues, agreed.

Experienced drivers are taken from duties, rest periods and holidays are being cut, pressure is increased on drivers to work excessive hours by lowering pay rates, increasing overtime hours with no fair reward for doing same, cutting sick day conditions thus pressuring drivers to work when unfit, etc etc.

All of that applies to everyone, not just people within Dublin Bus. So what about experienced drivers losing out to less experienced drivers, if they are all qualified so what, just because you are there longer it doesn't mean you are better if you have the same job title as someone else.

The fact is that sick pay IS abused whether you like to admit it or not, It happens in pretty much all companies, and from managing a team of staff myself, I can tell you that the number of people called in sick, following a public holiday or a match was vastly reduced when their uncertified sick days were taken away. Or is it just a co-incidence that the most popular days for people calling in sick are Monday's, Friday's or after an event or bank holidays? If a staff member is sick they go to the doctor, like anyone else will and get a certificate.

While there are those who may well say that this and that is done in the private sector, that isn't going to be a fair rationale to follow suit. This time of year, many private hire coach drivers will drive 70+ hour weeks with no regard for rest time/day. Some UK firms employ part time drivers who, after travel times which are unpaid, are earning for 4 hour days for 6-7 hour days or working part time on top of other jobs with little regard for working time directives.

If such companies exist feel free to report them to the authorities. I notice that you are not really fleshing out this claim very much, no doubt because there is very little foundation in them. The scheduled service running privates in this country are nowhere near doing the kind of things you report. There are cowboy operators in most industries in every country in the world, it doesn't mean they are all like them, all people are asking for is a more reasonable set of terms and conditions, everyone must make sacrifices but some CIE staff appear to think they should make none.

I've no interest per se in this except as that of a passenger

Quite: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72945452&postcount=122

ho'd rather be one of 80 people moved from A to B by a driver who is fit for duty and not sick or pressurised over a driver who's knackered, hungry, medically unwell and not alert on the road. I sure you would too.

I would too, but the reductions being talked about would not make the situation as bad as you make out. There are some valid points that are made but the sick leave is a huge red herring. If you're ill you go see a doctor and get a certificate if you want to be paid. The same as the rest of us.

There are many companies who do not have any generous conditions as CIE in this company who operate in transport and they seem to get by perfectly well.

Losty Dublin

devnull wrote: »

All of that applies to everyone, not just people within Dublin Bus. So what about experienced drivers losing out to less experienced drivers, if they are all qualified so what, just because you are there longer it doesn't mean you are better if you have the same job title as someone else.

The issue isn't about drivers replacing drivers though, It's about the conditions for them to operate safely regardless of how long they are working for the company.

devnull wrote: »

The fact is that sick pay IS abused whether you like to admit it or not, It happens in pretty much all companies, and from managing a team of staff myself, I can tell you that the number of people called in sick, following a public holiday or a match was vastly reduced when their uncertified sick days were taken away. Or is it just a co-incidence that the most popular days for people calling in sick are Monday's, Friday's or after an event or bank holidays? If a staff member is sick they go to the doctor, like anyone else will and get a certificate.

Abused by some, I agree. Reason enough to get rid of it for everybody? Hardly. It is a cost to provide it but the benefits of outweigh the abuses as a whole.

devnull wrote: »

If such companies exist feel free to report them to the authorities. I notice that you are not really fleshing out this claim very much, no doubt because there is very little foundation in them. The scheduled service running privates in this country are nowhere near doing the kind of things you report.

Dev, you know enough about the bus trade to know that private hire coachs and tour coaches this time of the year abuse the working time hours with gay abandon. The trouble is, these drivers are self employed operators so the hire companies don't care for this, same way there is no track kept of private van, taxi and lorry drivers.

devnull wrote: »

Quite: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72945452&postcount=122

My dad (who retired years ago) was actually a very rare thing on the railways; a 9-5 man. Who incidentally didn't work for Dublin Bus, the topic of this thread

devnull wrote: »

I would too, but the reductions being talked about would not make the situation as bad as you make out. There are some valid points that are made but the sick leave is a huge red herring. If you're ill you go see a doctor and get a certificate if you want to be paid. The same as the rest of us.

The sick leave isn't a red herring, though. Many people have recurring conditions or pick up ailments that don't require a trip to a GP yet need a day off work. Also a GP isn't available at 5AM or late night if you are on shifts bar A+E or maybe call out GP so some leeway is needed.

devnull wrote: »

There are many companies who do not have any generous conditions as CIE in this company who operate in transport and they seem to get by perfectly well.

In fairness, there are very very few transport companies working as vigorous a timetable as Dublin Bus so these issues are not arising as much; Luas would be the next busiest.

Vahevala

Having 7+ uncertified days is ridiculous within any industry in my opinion. If you are clearly that sick, you will go to the doctor/hospital and will get paid, no questions asked.

Uncertified days will be abused I am afraid. For most people, they are viewed as extra holiday days and take them when they are not even remotely sick!

Vahevala

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The issue isn't about drivers replacing drivers though, It's about the conditions for them to operate safely regardless of how long they are working for the company.



Abused by some, I agree. Reason enough to get rid of it for everybody? Hardly. It is a cost to provide it but the benefits of outweigh the abuses as a whole.



Dev, you know enough about the bus trade to know that private hire coachs and tour coaches this time of the year abuse the working time hours with gay abandon. The trouble is, these drivers are self employed operators so the hire companies don't care for this, same way there is no track kept of private van, taxi and lorry drivers.




My dad (who retired years ago) was actually a very rare thing on the railways; a 9-5 man. Who incidentally didn't work for Dublin Bus, the topic of this thread




The sick leave isn't a red herring, though. Many people have recurring conditions or pick up ailments that don't require a trip to a GP yet need a day off work. Also a GP isn't available at 5AM or late night if you are on shifts bar A+E or maybe call out GP so some leeway is needed.



In fairness, there are very very few transport companies working as vigorous a timetable as Dublin Bus so these issues are not arising as much; Luas would be the next busiest.

If you are on the Northside of Dublin, D-Doc is there, you can call to them or they can call to you.

What ailments are that bad that require a day off work but not enough to see a doctor? If you are unable to work, you are able to see a doctor.

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Abused by some, I agree. Reason enough to get rid of it for everybody? Hardly. It is a cost to provide it but the benefits of outweigh the abuses as a whole.

I could say the same to my employer. Doubt they would agree though. They're also not losing money, unlike CIE.

Dev, you know enough about the bus trade to know that private hire coachs and tour coaches this time of the year abuse the working time hours with gay abandon. The trouble is, these drivers are self employed operators so the hire companies don't care for this, same way there is no track kept of private van, taxi and lorry drivers.

I know there are a small number of people who are taken advantage of yes, but there are a huge amount more people who are treated fairly in the big private companies.

My dad (who retired years ago) was actually a very rare thing on the railways; a 9-5 man. Who incidentally didn't work for Dublin Bus, the topic of this thread

Which is part of CIE and many conditions are across the group as has been pointed out before

The sick leave isn't a red herring, though. Many people have recurring conditions or pick up ailments that don't require a trip to a GP yet need a day off work.

No, in the majority of companies they don't have to go to the doctor no, but if they do not they won't get paid. Many people, believe it or not, go to the doctor to get a certificate to say they are unfit for work, not to see the doctor itself, generally all reasonable doctors will know if someone is suffering from such conditions, and will write a sick cert outlining this without an appointment. If they have a long term condition then they can also write letters, outlining this to an employer. All of the above I've seen happen in companies and place I have worked.

Also a GP isn't available at 5AM or late night if you are on shifts bar A+E or maybe call out GP so some leeway is needed.

I work shifts. I have the same problem. However if you are calling in sick for work than at least some of these hours will be when the doctor is operating. Even if you are operating a shift such as 3pm to 11pm, you still have 2 or three hours to see a doctor if you really wanted to.

In fairness, there are very very few transport companies working as vigorous a timetable as Dublin Bus so these issues are not arising as much; Luas would be the next busiest.

Funny that? There are some coach operates who are operating the same service 24 hours a day 364 days a year. Dublin Bus operate much less services at the weekend compared to what they do in the week, a luxury that a lot of the other operators on coach services don't have.

SandyfordGuy

Many people have recurring conditions or pick up ailments that don't require a trip to a GP yet need a day off work.

In other words they don't want to see a doctor, because it will cost them oney that they don't want to pay, yet they are happy enough to take money from their company.

If a company pays you despite the fact you are sick and of no use to them, I don't think it is too much to ask for you to actually see a doctor considering many people would love to have that condition. Yet Dublin Bus staff not only get paid for sick days, they also get two uncertified sick days, so yeah, they have it so hard, my heart bleeds.

If you don't see a doctor then it starts to sound like such person may have something to hide.

devnull

It's a pointless discussion, it speaks volumes about why this country is where it is.

MaxGenius

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Driving standards have raised in this company over the last decade. Losing the €250 bonus tokens.

You shouldn't need a €250 token to incentivise you to drive safely. Surely that is a fundamental part of your job?

cleveland browne wrote: »

Self certified sick days cut from 7 to 2

Holidays capped at 23 days

Monitoring equipment to be installed across the fleet to monitor driver behaviour

First 3 days sick with not be paid

Sickness benefit to be reduced to 70% for 4 weeks 60% for 8 weeeks 50% for 14 weeks.

Attendance and Safe Driving awards scrapped

All Schedules to be reviewed to take account of current loading.

Overtime and Restday work Monday to Saturday to be paid at flat rate

Overtime and Restday work on Sunday to be paid at Double time

Bank Holidays to be Paid as Double time instead of Treble time. ( remember you get a days pay even if you don't work so effectively working a bank holiday is just a flat days pay.)

Shift pay won't be paid unless there is at least a three hour difference in duty start times.

No travelling time if the start and finish is the same place no matter where that is.

I don't see anything wrong with these proposals. I would love 23 days holiday a year, like many others - I have 20. I've also had a pay freeze since 2009, my bonus was scrapped, I also work overtime without any extra pay. The only thing I take issue with is not allowing drivers have a proper break.

It's great these staff have had all these extra privileges and it's a shame it has to end, but if the company is loosing money then something has to give.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The sick leave isn't a red herring, though. Many people have recurring conditions or pick up ailments that don't require a trip to a GP yet need a day off work. Also a GP isn't available at 5AM or late night if you are on shifts bar A+E or maybe call out GP so some leeway is needed.

Ridiculous, bus drivers are not the only people working odd hours. Many doctors have an early/late surgery, some even work weekends. You find a way to fit it in around work if it's not an emergency.

J_Dublin15

What is the problem with driver CPC? First of all I read that this is about safety and now I read that people are against improving this? Which way is it?

For those not in the know, this is what driver CPC is:

Driver CPC was introduced across the EU in 2008 for professional bus drivers and 2009 for professional truck drivers to set and maintain high standards of road safety, health and safety and driving among professional drivers of buses and trucks.

Three key aims:
Ensuring all professional drivers have good driving and safety standards and that those standards are maintained throughout their career
Creating a common standard for the training and testing of drivers throughout the EU
Reducing fatalities and serious injuries on Irish roads. The RSA’s target is for Ireland to have one of the lowest casualty rates in Europe.

Is that such a bad thing? Just gives me the impression like others have said, that safety is a smokescreen.

Losty Dublin

Vahevala wrote: »

If you are on the Northside of Dublin, D-Doc is there, you can call to them or they can call to you.

What ailments are that bad that require a day off work but not enough to see a doctor? If you are unable to work, you are able to see a doctor.

Oh yes there are call out GP services there. I called one for my Mum a few weeks ago at half 8 in the PM. He arrived at 12:50AM, very practical if you are need to ring in work sick :rolleyes:

As to your second question, call out out a GP for stomach upsets, cramps, sinusitis attacks, colds, flu's, period pains to name a few :rolleyes:

devnull

Pray tell, in such situation the person would be working the next day no? as far as I'm aware no Dublin Bus shifts start after 8pm.

If they're going to be unfit to work the following day, they go to the doctor the following day, get the certificate for the same day and return to work the next day. If they are better they go to work the next day.

The fact is people I hear in the public and semi state companies say they not go to doctor because they don't need to. Well in most companies these days you are required to go to the doctor, to get proof that you are unfit to attend work.

As to your second question, call out out a GP for stomach upsets, cramps, sinusitis attacks, colds, flu's, period pains to name a few

Well most of those generally last more than 24 hours so you just go to the doctor the next day. If you call in one day saying you can't come to work because you have a cold, yet the day before and the day after you are fine, many would be suspicious.

dirtynosebeps

devnull wrote: »

Pray tell, in such situation the person would be working the next day no? as far as I'm aware no Dublin Bus shifts start after 8pm.

If they're going to be unfit to work the following day, they go to the doctor the following day, get the certificate for the same day and return to work the next day. If they are better they go to work the next day.

here hows uncertified and certified works.
if a driver is taking a one day uncertified sick day they ring the garage tell the supervisor what they're doing and they'll be in the following day.as they are not going sick with a cert hence uncertified. unlike alot of other places a bus driver cannot take 2 uncertified days one after another. for 2 or more consecutive sick days they must produce a cert.
if they are going sick with a cert they ring the garage telling the supervisor of same. now heres where the problem lies dev.
if they were to go sick for one day with a cert. they have to ring in saying they're going sick. make an appointment with a doctor which is usually the day after they go sick in other words the day they're due back.
on any given day sheets are marked up for all drivers usually by around 12-1pm for the following day. when a driver goes sick with a cert that driver cannot be marked up for a duty until the duty supervisor receives the cert. so for example going by what dev says above if driver A goes sick today they wont be working tomorrow either because the duty supervisor would've had to have received the cert by 11.30am this morning. so in actual fact it would be almost impossible for a bus driver to go sick for one day with a cert.
D.B. takes pride in it's training of drivers. these 7 days uncertified are for driver who maybe feeling a bit under the weather for whatever reason and therefore would not be 100% fit to do their duty.they are probably some of the best trained drivers anywhere in the country. please be aware i am talking about the sick days here and the reasons why they may be taken.
now for the safe driving. yes there is a bonus and to get that bonus the driver must have no culpable accidents. it's an incentive and fair play to dublin bus for having it other wise there would be alot of accidents involving dublin bus drivers.
another thing people seem to forget is fare evasion. this is rife within dublin bus and it is a serious amount of lost revenue. people might think it's a game by not paying the right fare or using dodgy passes.but what they are actually doing is thieving,robbing call it what ever you want.this is a serious amount of money that dublin bus could do with to provide a service. the drivers know where it's happening and how bad it is. yet dublin bus want to penalize the workers, foot soldiers instead of the real culprits. in other words they want the drivers to suffer because of what i've outlined above in relation to fare evasion.

cleveland browne

devnull wrote: »

It's a pointless discussion, it speaks volumes about why this country is where it is.

Exactly, a word to the wise this is already a done deal. The company have a list of 16 demands they have bulked it out so they have give in it so the unions can claim a win. So of the 16 probably 8 are core even within them there is room for tweaking. 6/8 won't happen at all. That way the union can go to the members and say look we stopped x,y and z usually the stuff that attracts most resistance. It's a well worn dance routine that those of us who have worked for DB have seen time and time again.

Now let's go through the motions one more time but with feeling this time.

Btw it's pretty pointless arguing here stuff like this attracts the usual anti semi state heads that would tell you chaining you to the steering wheel was reasonable.

What does annoy me about this is that the company is doing **** all to stop the massive fare evasion and abuse of social welfare passes. The amount of revenue being lost is huge which is unfair not only to the staff who are being asked to carry the can, but also to the decent correct fare paying passengers who are being forced to pay higher and higher fares each year because that's easier than tackling the problem.

Cookie_Monster

Vahevala wrote: »

What ailments are that bad that require a day off work but not enough to see a doctor? If you are unable to work, you are able to see a doctor.

you don't need to spend 60+ euro on a doctor to tell you that you have a bad cold and need rest and there's nothing else you can do apart from take a lemsip or two and some vitC.

Shift pay won't be paid unless there is at least a three hour difference in duty start times.

can someone explain that one to me? Is that the gap if you are working routes in the morning, and then not agin till evening rush hours?

If you have 45 minutes for a break you have to come back on time irrespective of how late your break starts.

that sounds totally unacceptable to me, how can they legally curtail your break entitlement like that? It's hardly the drivers fault if traffic makes him late for a scheduled changeover and he's late for a break as a result.

cleveland browne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Vahevala wrote: »

What ailments are that bad that require a day off work but not enough to see a doctor? If you are unable to work, you are able to see a doctor.

you don't need to spend 60+ euro on a doctor to tell you that you have a bad cold and need rest and there's nothing else you can do apart from take a lemsip or two and some vitC.

Shift pay won't be paid unless there is at least a three hour difference in duty start times.

can someone explain that one to me? Is that the gap if you are working routes in the morning, and then not agin till evening rush hours?

If you have 45 minutes for a break you have to come back on time irrespective of how late your break starts.

that sounds totally unacceptable to me, how can they legally curtail your break entitlement like that? It's hardly the drivers fault if traffic makes him late for a scheduled changeover and he's late for a break as a result.

A dose of diarrhea is another one usually cleared up in 24 hours or less but completely impossible to go to drive a bus with no access to toilet facilities for upto 5:30 hours.


3 hours difference in start time refers to bogies( split shifts) where they work mornings have a 3 or 4 hour break and work evening.
They would normally work 4 or more different duties over a 5 week rota if the difference in starting time between any of those duties is not more than 3 hours they would not be paid shift pay.

Cookie_Monster

cleveland browne wrote: »

3 hours difference in start time refers to bogies( split shifts) where they work mornings have a 3 or 4 hour break and work evening.
They would normally work 4 or more different duties over a 5 week rota if the difference in starting time between any of those duties is not more than 3 hours they would not be paid shift pay.

so not get paid to do nothing for those 3 hours, that seems pretty reasonable to me.

cleveland browne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

cleveland browne wrote: »

3 hours difference in start time refers to bogies( split shifts) where they work mornings have a 3 or 4 hour break and work evening.
They would normally work 4 or more different duties over a 5 week rota if the difference in starting time between any of those duties is not more than 3 hours they would not be paid shift pay.

so not get paid to do nothing for those 3 hours, that seems pretty reasonable to me.

No I'll try again.

Bogie drivers follow a roster made up of a varying number of duties depending on the route. If their earliest start time is for example 6am then they would only be paid a shift allowance if their latest start time was after 9am.

liger

When are unions polling their members on these changes? Will unions and DB hold talks for a few weeks first?

cleveland browne

liger wrote: »

When are unions polling their members on these changes? Will unions and DB hold talks for a few weeks first?

If it follows normal course, stand off followed by negotiations, then vote which will be rejected, more negotiation next vote rejection, more negotiating no agreement, sent to labour court for arbitration, final vote narrowly passed.

The_Wrecker

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so not get paid to do nothing for those 3 hours, that seems pretty reasonable to me.

Its the start times only. A shift driver may do an early starting at 6am one week then a relief starting at 10am the next week, thus being a 4hr shift gap.
A bogie shift driver may start at 645am one week then 930 the next, thus under 3hrs and not recognised as shift work.

rx8

This has f*** all to do with a dose of the trots, or a 3 hour gap in your starting time... This is all aimed at striping back the terms and conditions that we currently have, to get the company ready for the HAND-OVER to First Bus, or Stagecoach in 2014 when DB's current agreement runs out !

I mean, who do they think they are kidding here ?, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

Nobody in 59 gives 2 f***s about Drivers, their families or anyone else in the wages grade,once they get their golden hand-shakes and their exorbitant pensions (out of a scheme that's €300 million in the red), then that'll be all right then.

Fare evasion?? what's that ?:rolleyes:

cleveland browne

rx8 wrote: »

This has f*** all to do with a dose of the trots, or a 3 hour gap in your starting time... This is all aimed at striping back the terms and conditions that we currently have, to get the company ready for the HAND-OVER to First Bus, or Stagecoach in 2014 when DB's current agreement runs out !

I mean, who do they think they are kidding here ?, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

Nobody in 59 gives 2 f***s about Drivers, their families or anyone else in the wages grade,once they get their golden hand-shakes and their exorbitant pensions (out of a scheme that's €300 million in the red), then that'll be all right then.

Fare evasion?? what's that ?:rolleyes:

Agreed

devnull

Fare evasion is a huge problem in Dublin Bus and it does without doubt need to be clamped down on, increasing the standard fare penalty is a good start to that, but a hell of a lot more needs to be done.

When I used to use the bus regularly before network direct, the number of people who were over traveling, and paying a lower fare for their journey than they should by lying to the driver was huge.

Very few drivers took on passengers and inspectors are barely seen.

bk

devnull wrote: »

Fare evasion is a huge problem in Dublin Bus and it does without doubt need to be clamped down on, increasing the standard fare penalty is a good start to that, but a hell of a lot more needs to be done.

When I used to use the bus regularly before network direct, the number of people who were over traveling, and paying a lower fare for their journey than they should by lying to the driver was huge.

Very few drivers took on passengers and inspectors are barely seen.

That is why I'm convinced moving to tag-on/tag-off leap card system, in-conjunction with a high flat cash fare (e.g. €3 for all including children), could solve most of this problem over night, along with other benefits.