Final Fantasy VII retrospective

Retr0gamer

The latest Gamespite is all about revisiting games and giving them a second chance and has a great article all about FFVII which is well worth a read. Jeremy Parish wrote an article about FFVII that went down in infamy because he absolutely blasted the game. It was meant to be tongue in cheek and quite harsh despite every point it made being fair but a lot of people took it the wrong way. Anyway the new piece is written from the perspective of him going back to play it and it's a much fairer assessment. I think he was a bit harsh on barret who has a decent backstory. The comments section is full of the Jenova/Sephiroth in charge stuff but one interesting thing came out of it that I never knew. The optional Zack scenes in Nibelheim were added to the Western release and were only available in the international rerelease of the game in japan.

http://www.gamespite.net/toastywiki/index.php/Games/G11-FinalFantasyVII

Here's the original piece, remember to take it with a pince of salt:

http://www.gamespite.net/toastywiki/index.php/Games/FinalFantasyVII

ancapailldorcha

The original piece goes a bit over the top IMO (liking FFVII means you have head trauma?) but the second piece is quite well argued and put together.

Retr0gamer

Well it was meant to be over the top and provoke a response from the more rabid fanboys that wouldn't get it.

ancapailldorcha

Fair enough. It was completely spot on. I've thought a lot of Parish since I read his thoughts on FFXIII.

Retr0gamer

Yeah he does know his stuff and makes good points, even when I don't agree with him like on FFXII.

Also to put the original article in context it was part of a series of articles where the authors ripped into games they felt were over rated and had to be as mean as possible.

ancapailldorcha

I see.

I didn't enjoy FFXII that much on my first playthrough but having played more RPGs now I'd be keen to give it another run through. I get the impression he's embracing the newer direction and ideas that FFXII had, even though they were ultimately bludgeoned by Square Enix. He seems to be a bit fed up with the usual Nomura creations that usually feature in FFs. I like a lot of Nomura's characters but he's produced an awful lot of duds. I'm assuming FFXII's cast was originally going to be composed of Balthier, Ashe & Basch (Maybe Fran?). I thought those 3 were great characters lacking in the usual cliches one sees while playing through the FF series.

Vokes

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm assuming FFXII's cast was originally going to be composed of Balthier, Ashe & Basch (Maybe Fran?). I thought those 3 were great characters lacking in the usual cliches one sees while playing through the FF series.

Yeh I think Basch, and maybe the others to a lesser extent, was originally intended to be the main protagonist (which would've been great) but he didn't fit with the target demographic. Presumably then that's how Vaan came about.

Retr0gamer

I heard that Vaan and Penelo being shoehorned in was a big contributing factor to Matsuno leaving the project. You can really tell when he left the project because the story goes from a really intriguing political tale just like Tactics Ogre and Vagrant Story, to a fetch quest and an abrupt ending. I wish he stayed around. While I didn't like FFXII's battle engine at all I was a bit too down on it because Xenoblade recently showed how amazing the idea could be if implemented properly.

ancapailldorcha

That makes sense considering Penelo has no role in the story at all while Vaan's part is to meet Balthier. I'd say he could be removed and 95% of the dialogue in the game would be the same.
Isn't Basch a carbon copy of Ashley Riot though? I haven't played Vagrant Story so I'm not sure.

Retr0gamer

Not at all. Ashley Riot is a very complex character with a lot going on and then there's the fact that he's getting this mind screwed with by Lea Monde throughout the game. They're very different characters.

ancapailldorcha

Hmm.. Didn't know that. I'd written Basch off as a mere copy, not that he was a bad character or anything. I still need to pick up VS.

noodler

I read the 2006 critique first.

So much wrong with that but no point replying or debating troll bait.

Was going to read the updated one but its 3 or 4 times the size.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

So much wrong with that but no point replying or debating troll bait.

All were valid points, it was just a bit pverly vicious at times, which again was the point.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

All were valid points, it was just a bit pverly vicious at times, which again was the point.

Hey whatever Retr0.

Its pretty much every opinion on the game you have ever spouted.

Its no real surprise you'd post it here - everybody knows your opinion on the game at this stage, it seems unnecessary to link to outside sources just to prove there are others who feel the same way.

Retr0gamer

I just thought it would be an interesting read for others here and it's a new one and besides Kat Bailey there's no one else in the industry that knows their RPGs better than Jeremy Parish which why I thought people would be interested.

Aurongroove

I disagree with the idea that Midgar made FFVII.
I agree that it was a wonderful opening chapter; pity Cocoon didn't come anywhere near Midgar in captivation else XIII might've been all the better for it.


Midgar was wonderful, but trying to argue the rest of the game was tacked on filler or what have you is the best of nonsense.


On XII, There was a scene with a 'Judge Drace' which made the skin on my arse tighten, I remember thinking "Oh good, Final Fantasy are doing a political story and it's really heating up, this story might wind up being as good as the old Suikodens"
but then it just vanishes and the story sort of wanders off.

Aurongroove

Also no amount of point making can take away from FFVII's cultural impact and it's impact that decides a things 'legendary' status. the game will always be too far above 10 out of 10, becasue it's a "Micheal Jackson", a "Bladerunner" or a urinal hanging up in an art gallery.

It dosn't matter how many mistakes Bladerunner had for example, it'll always be one of the most important films ever made. downplaying what it actually is, or even just being honest about what it actually is, will always have people saying "you've missed the point/context/importance" etc. Which is what a review of FFVII is.

no one should review FFVII anymore they should study it's anthropology.

Retr0gamer

Aurongroove wrote: »

no one should review FFVII anymore they should study it's anthropology.

Frankly, what you just posted it totally ridiculous. Nothing is above criticism no matter how culturally relevant it is. The impact FFVII has is another discussion entirely. Your comparison is silly as well, Bladerunner despite it's cultural significance isn't beyond criticism either, you'll find plenty of reviews of it still cropping up.

The issue of gamespite it is taken from is all about exploring what people think about games that they had low opinions of and giving them a second chance. Not sure how you will argue it doesn't fit in there.

ancapailldorcha

Aurongroove wrote: »

I disagree with the idea that Midgar made FFVII.
I agree that it was a wonderful opening chapter; pity Cocoon didn't come anywhere near Midgar in captivation else XIII might've been all the better for it.


Midgar was wonderful, but trying to argue the rest of the game was tacked on filler or what have you is the best of nonsense.

The game never felt "tacked on". It was more that they'd set up an interesting world and plot with the futuristic Midgar and then left it for a load of towns and the usual "Hunt the baddie" story. I was always wondering how Shinra were bleeding the planet dry with only one city looking to be using significant amounts of Mako.
+1 on Coccoon. It would have been nice to actually run around the place a bit instead of the endless corridors and that definitely would have helped the game.

Aurongroove wrote: »

On XII, There was a scene with a 'Judge Drace' which made the skin on my arse tighten, I remember thinking "Oh good, Final Fantasy are doing a political story and it's really heating up, this story might wind up being as good as the old Suikodens"
but then it just vanishes and the story sort of wanders off

Definitely, you have 2 empires going to war with Dalmasca stuck in the middle and then it ends with some "go here, find this" nonsense.

Retr0gamer

I think the article makes a good point that the game originally started out as a detective story and was supposed to be set entirely in a city. I think since FFVII was a transitional game Square weren't prepared to make a game that didn't have a world map or a shorter game so after midgar went a bit more traditional. And the world outside Midgar always felt a bit tacked on to me, once you leave midgar the plot is less interesting and it never finds the pace in Midgar. It never reached the heights of Midgar and the wild changes in style were particularly jarring. Games like Suikoden and Panzer Dragoon Saga had game lengths of 20 hours and were all the better for them, it would have been interesting to see how a more focused FFVII set in just midgar that was a bit shorter would have fared, the pacing would have been improved I'd imagine.

There's also the fact that FFVII really was thrown together at the last minute, which might explain some of the stylistic changes. The developers themselves said they were surprised at the end when a decent game appeared in the last few days of development, it was quite a nightmare development by all accounts. Of course this happens a lot in game development, I was listening to a podcast with looking glass employees and they were commenting on how Thief and Deus Ex only came together in the last 3 weeks or so.

noodler

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I think the article makes a good point that the game originally started out as a detective story and was supposed to be set entirely in a city. I think since FFVII was a transitional game Square weren't prepared to make a game that didn't have a world map or a shorter game so after midgar went a bit more traditional.

Is this actually true?

Regarding the plot change, I can hardly think of an RPG (or even a story-driven game) that didn't have an initial plot which turned out to be something bigger etc.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And the world outside Midgar always felt a bit tacked on to me, once you leave midgar the plot is less interesting and it never finds the pace in Midgar. It never reached the heights of Midgar and the wild changes in style were particularly jarring.

Nobody could possibly aruge that the other locations were less awesome than Midgar but every game has a main city and Midgar made sense plot wise.

The change in styles? I can't really understand that comment at all. It is supposed to be a world map after all - I would understand if people had a criticism of a game because the tows were too homogenous.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Games like Suikoden and Panzer Dragoon Saga had game lengths of 20 hours and were all the better for them, it would have been interesting to see how a more focused FFVII set in just midgar that was a bit shorter would have fared, the pacing would have been improved I'd imagine.

I never had a problem with FF7's length - it was perfectly fine for me. I don't agree for a second with the author's points here.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's also the fact that FFVII really was thrown together at the last minute, which might explain some of the stylistic changes.

Again, I'll take your word for it but even then we are taking a leap that a stringent time limit for the development team had an effect in the way you say. Surely though, having less time would have made the towns more similar rather than less?

ride-the-spiral

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The game never felt "tacked on". It was more that they'd set up an interesting world and plot with the futuristic Midgar and then left it for a load of towns and the usual "Hunt the baddie" story. I was always wondering how Shinra were bleeding the planet dry with only one city looking to be using significant amounts of Mako.
+1 on Coccoon. It would have been nice to actually run around the place a bit instead of the endless corridors and that definitely would have helped the game.



Definitely, you have 2 empires going to war with Dalmasca stuck in the middle and then it ends with some "go here, find this" nonsense.

I also never felt the game was tacked on. I remember the first time playing it, I didn't really read the manual and missed out on the beginner's explanations in sector 7, so I had no hint of the world map or the fact that the game was ever going to take place outside Midgar. The odd references to The Promised Land made me hopeful that the game would give the chance to go there so I was quite happy when it became more open. That being said the game never became too open, for most of the game after Midgar it retained a healthy sense of the linearity which made the Midgar section so great.

I agree about Cocoon. There was a (very) brief period (controlling Sazh I think?) at some festival where the game slowed down a bit and I was hopeful that it was returning to the pacing of Midgar section, but no, five minutes later and you're on the run down corridors again.

XII was very engaging at the start, the story seemed like it could have been so good. I remember the opening section with Reks setting up the political story but as it went on everything became much more cliché and the story and script became a bit cringey. Two of the worst parts which stick in my mind; I was all eager to go to Archadia and then when you get there it's a city where everybody just tries to use the word "information" as much as possible. And all that "history back in the hands of man" stuff was just awful I thought.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

Is this actually true?

Regarding the plot change, I can hardly think of an RPG (or even a story-driven game) that didn't have an initial plot which turned out to be something bigger etc.

Yep it's well documented.

At the time most RPGs only really started in the initial city. FFVII was unusual that it had a huge part of the game devoted to the initial city and went into far more depth than any other RPG at the time. The point that was being made was that the game might have been better if it had been brave enough to stick to that. It felt like Square added the world map on because it was expected of an RPG at the time and it showed in the way the story and locations were less interesting or complex outside of Midgar. It's more pondering what could have been and an example of how FFVII was a transitional game rather than a criticism.

noodler wrote: »

The change in styles? I can't really understand that comment at all. It is supposed to be a world map after all - I would understand if people had a criticism of a game because the tows were too homogenous.

At the time Square hadn't the CGI farms it had at the time so it farmed out the CGI cutscenes and backgrounds to contractors all across Japan and also America. It's nothing to do with homogeneity of the locales and how they look the same, it's more got to do that there's no unifying artstyle outside of Midgar that ties the whole game together. It a lot of the locales felt out of place from Midgar, I know I felt it.

noodler wrote: »

I never had a problem with FF7's length - it was perfectly fine for me. I don't agree for a second with the author's points here.

Again nothing wrong with a long game but there's an awful lot of filler and fetch quests outside Midgar which contribute to the loss in pace. Also if you've ever played a 20 hour RPG like say Mother 3, they never really focus on a macrocosm but more a microcosm. Usually the story, and character explorations benefit from a more focused narrative and the pace of the game is excellent with all half baked filler cut right out. I think that if FFVII was a shorter game set entirely in Midgar it would have been a lot better but then that's just theorising, but that's half the fun sure.

noodler wrote: »

Again, I'll take your word for it but even then we are taking a leap that a stringent time limit for the development team had an effect in the way you say. Surely though, having less time would have made the towns more similar rather than less?

Again this has been documented, can't tell you where I read it, it was a while ago. It also leads into why FFXIII was a bit of a mess. Square had farmed out all the art assets and they had them to use so turfed them together and made the game around them so they weren't wasted. It's how they worked since FFVII. They mentioned that they did the same with FF13, creating art assets with no clear focus for them and making the game around them. They've come to realise that in this day and age it's bad work practice and are going through a major dev team restructuring to modernise production at the moment.

ride-the-spiral

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Again this has been documented, can't tell you where I read it, it was a while ago. It also leads into why FFXIII was a bit of a mess. Square had farmed out all the art assets and they had them to use so turfed them together and made the game around them so they weren't wasted. It's how they worked since FFVII. They mentioned that they did the same with FF13, creating art assets with no clear focus for them and making the game around them. They've come to realise that in this day and age it's bad work practice and are going through a major dev team restructuring to modernise production at the moment.

This makes sense. I had the feeling that the production of XIII consisted of coming up with the words Fal'Cie, l'Cie and Cie'th and structuring the whole game around using them incredibly often.

RedXIV

I don't know if I'd say personally if the game suffered after you left Midgar but I always automatically chopped the game up to being a different style of game once they left Midgar. I didn't disapprove but I did notice.

In hindsight I can look back now and say yes, the Midgar chapter is exceptionally well tied together and the prospect of a Midgar only game is an interesting one to entertain but I'm not sure how well it would have done. The optimism is there but on the other hand, I'm now so accustomed to the concept of a rolling world map and towns with varying styles of presentation that I don't know if I would be happy with out that. I know it disappointed me in FFX and FFXIII

Retr0gamer

Actually just thinking about it there, there might have been some corporate goings on that led to the redesign. I can imagine Kitase getting a telling off by management for trying something so radical with what was at the time probably one of the most expensive games at the time and Sqaures big chance at over taking Dragon Quest. Pure speculation but the thoughts of it amuse me

I can't check here but Gamastra rings a bell about a good FFVII development article, it might be there were the info is.

o1s1n

noodler

^


Thats Retr0 btw!

o1s1n

I'll just leave this here so

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056635587

Final Fantasy VII FTW!

/runs away

ancapailldorcha

I didn't know this sort of carry on was so common in the FF series.

Retr0gamer

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I didn't know this sort of carry on was so common in the FF series.

Never been to a con then? It gets much worse there, at least I've the looks to pull it off :P

ancapailldorcha

I was referring to the outsourcing of development. Never actually been to a convention but I'm well aware of cosplayers and such.

Retr0gamer

Outsourcing happens all the time in all big game development, even as far back as the PS1 era. Square at the time didn't have the CGI workstations to handle all the rendering of cutscenes and backgrounds (which could take days for a single frame to render) so outsourced it. Sure they are still outsourcing to CGI companies.

ancapailldorcha

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Outsourcing happens all the time in all big game development, even as far back as the PS1 era. Square at the time didn't have the CGI workstations to handle all the rendering of cutscenes and backgrounds (which could take days for a single frame to render) so outsourced it. Sure they are still outsourcing to CGI companies.

I can understand the animation, I was referring to the art design. I never thought building the levels would take so much. Then again, FFXIII took ages to put together.

Retr0gamer

The backgrounds were all 3D models with matte painted backgrounds. Back in 1995-1997 rendering of those backgrounds could take weeks, and that doesn't even include texturing and modeling. It's the same process as the CGI sequences. Also remember that the work that went into the backgrounds was just as strenuous as the CGI cinema work. There's about 330 unique backgrounds in FFVII all of which had to be created and rendered.

ancapailldorcha

I had no idea that amount of work was involved.

Aurongroove

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Bladerunner despite it's cultural significance isn't beyond criticism either, you'll find plenty of reviews of it still cropping up.

I'm not saying the reviews aren't cropping up, or that the thing is beyond criticism (saying something is 'beyond criticism', has connotations that one thinks the thing is perfect), I'm saying the criticism/review doesn't matter.

The same thing happens in Musicology, You write a book called "re-evaluating Mozart" and you'll be writing something that doesn't matter: it's not that Mozart is beyond criticism or that there aren't any new criticisms sprouting up; it's that the criticism of Mozart is a worthless commodity.

Neither can FFVII itself, nor current day reviews of FFVII nor SE for that matter, do anything today that matters to the level that FFVII mattered back in the day.
It's cultural impact has come and gone and has extended far beyond the thing itself, thus looking at what it is, is a waste of time, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's a waste of time to do it; FFVII status has already has been decided by basic historical record. It achieved something culturally that made it's short comings (much as they're obvious there) irrelevant to the game's identity.

boarder294

just the love the graphics in final fantasy..