Kenny to push for debt deal after Yes vote

cyberhog

The Government is to push European leaders to slash the cost of its crippling bank bailout after it secured resounding support for the fiscal treaty.

...

Mr Kenny said he raised the banking crisis directly with the German Chancellor and he also discussed it with French president Francois Hollande, Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, Mr Barroso and president of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy.

He said the Yes vote gives the Government the power to negotiate more strongly on the issue of bank debt.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenny-to-push-for-debt-deal-after-yes-vote-553873.html


Merkel must be laughing her ass off! If our poor deluded Taoiseach thinks the EU leaders are going to give us anything other than crippling austerity then he's a bigger fool than I thought.

loldog

Ireland's quirky constitutional requirement regularly provides the shaky EU project with a much needed figleaf of democratic legitimacy. It's a mistake to underestimate political capital.

.

onemorechance

cyberhog wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenny-to-push-for-debt-deal-after-yes-vote-553873.html


Merkel must be laughing her ass off! If our poor deluded Taoiseach thinks the EU leaders are going to give us anything other than crippling austerity then he's a bigger fool than I thought.

Mr Kenny said he raised the banking crisis directly with the German Chancellor and he also discussed it with French president Francois Hollande, Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, Mr Barroso and president of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy.

Good man Enda! So brave of you to raise the banking crisis directly with your European equivalents! What a brave and courageous leader you are! Did Francois Hollande give you a pat on the head for your bravery?

He said the Yes vote gives the Government the power to negotiate more strongly on the issue of bank debt.

Surely the threat of a No vote before the election would have given them a strong negotiating point also!

With Enda's negotiating skills we'll end up paying for Spain's bank bailout too! :pac: Maybe it's best that he doesn't speak directly to Mariano Rajoy anymore!

books4sale

Maybe you all missed the point.

The Irish people voted 'YES', that's what we now have to negociate with, there are no other alternatives. :pac:

superluck

Ireland is definitely in a stronger position now to renegotiate it's debt because it did what the Germans requested. The yes vote demonstrates Ireland is not to be messed with.

Galwayguy35

superluck wrote: »

Ireland is definitely in a stronger position now to renegotiate it's debt because it did what the Germans requested. The yes vote demonstrates Ireland is not to be messed with.

Somehow I don't think Germany and France are quaking in their boots about a country whose population would fit in one corner of Paris and Berlin or our Mr Nice Guy Taoiseach.

soupdrinker

Enda was too afraid to debate the treaty with other party leaders in a tv studio, how the hell is he going to negotiate a deal on the bank debt with the bigwigs of europe:mad:

Scofflaw

Ladies and gents, the referendum is now over - which means the Politics forum will no longer be tolerating AH-style posts in the name of democracy. Please bear this warning in mind.

moderately,
Scofflaw

books4sale

soupdrinker wrote: »

Enda was too afraid to debate the treaty with other party leaders in a tv studio, how the hell is he going to negotiate a deal on the bank debt with the bigwigs of europe:mad:

How do you know Kenny was afraid to debate in a TV studio, where did you pull that misinformation from. Did he say that publicly?

Enda Kenny is the leader of this country as voted by the Irish people, I don't want to see our leader wasting time in TV studios debating with a bunch of nobodys.

Let the man do his job, which is to lead this country as a strong and proud member of the European Union.

Together we stand tall, divided we fall.

forfuxsake

books4sale wrote: »

How do you know Kenny was afraid to debate in a TV studio, where did you pull that misinformation from. Did he say that publicly?

Enda Kenny is the leader of this country as voted by the Irish people, I don't want to see our leader wasting time in TV studios debating with a bunch of nobodys.

Let the man do his job, which is to lead this country as a strong and proud member of the European Union.

Together we stand tall, divided we fall.

By 'nobodies' do you mean the second largest party in the state?

A yes or no will suffice.

soupdrinker

He is supposed to be representing us, the country yet he couldn't stand up on TV with other leaders and debate the referendum and explain why we should vote yes.

If he was a confident capable leader and could honestly explain to the country why we should vote yes, then he should have easily been able to take part in a debate.

If he couldn't do that, he most certainly cannot stand up and negotiate a deal with the leaders of Europe! Every interview I have seen with him does not give me any confidence what so ever that he could do a deal.

Going by the current state of the country, I don't know what he is spending his time doing, but he's not doing a good job of leading.

As for 'together we stand tall, divided we fall', that's a load of rubbish! There is more divides in this country all down to the way this country has been/is being run. What about the working class who are struggling to pay their mortgages and yet all the rich builders/bankers get away with everything. Its gone too far for the country to stand together and there is no-hope of this unless the government starts taking action against the big boys and starts making an effort to look after the little guys!

Bullseye1

I will believe it when I see it.

Mr.Micro

superluck wrote: »

Ireland is definitely in a stronger position now to renegotiate it's debt because it did what the Germans requested. The yes vote demonstrates Ireland is not to be messed with.

Tbh I think Ireland's situation will be a long way off the EU agenda, as the very survival of the Euro is the main issue. It looks very grim indeed for the Euro and it may go down to, every man for himself. Voting for the Treaty may just be papering over the cracks and a small boost for the EU, but trivial in the scale of the problems that we in the Eurozone are in.

TheInquisitor

superluck wrote: »

Ireland is definitely in a stronger position now to renegotiate it's debt because it did what the Germans requested. The yes vote demonstrates Ireland is not to be messed with.

You couldn't be more wrong. Ever! Whats stronger " germany we want a debt deal or we'll take you all down with us" or "Germany now that we've signed our lives away and have no way back will you now do this debt deal for us, oh and if you say no there's nothing we can do anyway "?

later12

I would be skeptical that Ireland's Referendum result will now deliver a bank deal - I think the Spanish and Italian crises are going to deliver our deal. In that respect, I think Kenny is playing politics.

I'm not sure if anyone was following the Taoiseach's words last night, but they were pretty amusing: "I feel a change of attitude among European leaders for dealing with our issues politically" and "Ireland's competitiveness has improved. We've moved from 24th to 20th in the world in terms of competitiveness" - it was as if the TSCG was some sort of gigantic issue for European policymakers or as though its ratification were somehow related to our apparent improvements in competitiveness. Really silly stuff, and this seems, on the face of it, to be more of the same.

Like everyone else, I hope it's true. But lets wait and see, shall we?

RichardAnd

books4sale wrote: »

How do you know Kenny was afraid to debate in a TV studio, where did you pull that misinformation from. Did he say that publicly?

Enda Kenny is the leader of this country as voted by the Irish people, I don't want to see our leader wasting time in TV studios debating with a bunch of nobodys.

Let the man do his job, which is to lead this country as a strong and proud member of the European Union.

Together we stand tall, divided we fall.

I'm sorry that you see other people in such a light because a fundamental of democracy is that there are no "nobodies".

books4sale

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm sorry that you see other people in such a light because a fundamental of democracy is that there are no "nobodies".

I'm not sorry.

'Nobodies' are people that want to be somebody, isn't that what politics are power are all about.

Don't tell me that nobody in the government wants to lead the country as Taoiseach. It's the highest office in the country and what they all aspire to, and before you tell me that they are there to work for the people. I never met a politician who didn't work for him or herself first. They think of themselves first, party second, country third and well people fourth, (every few years when they need a vote).

Good loser

TheInquisitor wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong. Ever! Whats stronger " germany we want a debt deal or we'll take you all down with us" or "Germany now that we've signed our lives away and have no way back will you now do this debt deal for us, oh and if you say no there's nothing we can do anyway "?

But that would be blackmail and the 'NO' side would never countenance that!
Or would they?

When you have power (i.e. money) it's easy to cut deals. We don't so we must be shrewd and subtle.

As mentioned above the Euro is tottering. The whole Zone will be lucky to have it intact at years end - with us on the inside. Luck will have a lot to do with it.

Going Forward

books4sale wrote: »

Maybe you all missed the point.

The Irish people voted 'YES', that's what we now have to negociate with, there are no other alternatives. :pac:

We now actually have less bargaining power having passed the referendum, so in reality Enda will have no real options but keep his head down for the forseeable future.

He had to say something by way of thanks for the result.......

onemorechance

books4sale wrote: »

I'm not sorry.

'Nobodies' are people that want to be somebody, isn't that what politics are power are all about.

Don't tell me that nobody in the government wants to lead the country as Taoiseach. It's the highest office in the country and what they all aspire to, and before you tell me that they are there to work for the people. I never met a politician who didn't work for him or herself first. They think of themselves first, party second, country third and well people fourth, (every few years when they need a vote).

Many people get into politics, possibly even most people get into politics due to a desire to change and hopefully improve the society and world in which they live.

There are many local councillors, t.d.'s etc. who work long hours, 7 days a week dealing with issues as mundane as someone's bin not being picked up to helping someone who has being made homeless.

It's just sad that in the Dáil for example that there is such division and competition between parties and individuals that in this time of national crisis they could not put all that crap behind them and all work together to find the best solution for Ireland.

There should also be more freedom to change key personnel within key civil service departments such as Finance and Health when the Minister decides and especially in a change of Government.

TheInquisitor

Good loser wrote: »

But that would be blackmail and the 'NO' side would never countenance that!
Or would they?

When you have power (i.e. money) it's easy to cut deals. We don't so we must be shrewd and subtle.

As mentioned above the Euro is tottering. The whole Zone will be lucky to have it intact at years end - with us on the inside. Luck will have a lot to do with it.

Of course it would be blackmail . Whats wrong with that? We should be subtle? What?? We should be screaming bloody murder for better terms. Constantly bringing it up at every single meeting . We had power, we had a vote. Now we have no power.

onemorechance

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Of course it would be blackmail . Whats wrong with that? We should be subtle? What?? We should be screaming bloody murder for better terms. Constantly bringing it up at every single meeting . We had power, we had a vote. Now we have no power.

It does seem to be the case. Ireland had a huge chance to negotiate prior to the vote, just like they did with previous referendums to get changes made to help Ireland.

Now we have voted yes, we have saved the EU a potential headache and they can move on and essentially forget about Ireland, they have bigger problems in Greece and Spain.

It's sad that Eamonn Gilmore stood up in the Dáil and said that he would welcome it if Hollande did get some growth measures added into the treaty at a later date, but was happy to push for the yes vote without that. Why did they not push for it themselves!!?? Say to the other EU members that they need this to ensure a yes vote in Ireland. They asked for NOTHING! They should have been demanding, but they didn't even ask!

As another poster said, if Enda could not debate the issue on tv with his Irish counterparts, who all essentially want the best for Ireland, then what hope is there in him being able to negotiate, let alone debate the issues with his European counterparts who have their own interests?

His state of the nation address seems even more sad and pathetic now, a pointless speech made to fulfil his own personal goals in being leader of the country and a sign of his near complete ineptitude for the role.

It's seems to be the case that a ruthless streak is needed to be the leader of a country, you must be the alpha male, Enda is a nice guy, but he is not an alpha male.

Good loser

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Of course it would be blackmail . Whats wrong with that? We should be subtle? What?? We should be screaming bloody murder for better terms. Constantly bringing it up at every single meeting . We had power, we had a vote. Now we have no power.

That's childish -the logic (so called) of Vincent Browne, Shane Ross, Declan Ganley and Sinn Fein etc. In other words all the clowns.

We're getting €100 bn at 1%. What do you want?

onemorechance

Good loser wrote: »

That's childish -the logic (so called) of Vincent Browne, Shane Ross, Declan Ganley and Sinn Fein etc. In other words all the clowns.

We're getting €100 bn at 1%. What do you want?

The EU/IMF loan is around 3.5 to 4% I think.

The EU could share the burden of the bank bailout, especially as Irish banks owe much of the money to other European banks. They could allow Ireland to default on a certain percentage of bond holder payments. Even a 10% reduction would be a HUGE saving.

Sand

later12 wrote: »

I would be skeptical that Ireland's Referendum result will now deliver a bank deal - I think the Spanish and Italian crises are going to deliver our deal. In that respect, I think Kenny is playing politics.

I'm not sure of that tbh. The much maligned Greeks stubbornness delivered us a minor reprieve from the crucifying terms of the original November 2010 deal. The Spanish and Italians crisis may lead to a deal, but theres a very limited pot in the ESM, and the Germans are vehemently against increasing it - it may be exhausted by the Spanish and Italian deal if there is even one. We Irish may be told that our deficit is nothing to do with the banks (as many posters on this board will tell you - Ireland's problems as they stand are nothing to do with banks - good negotiating stance lads). Ireland has just endorsed the strategy and narrative of the November 2010 bailout, which is that of a short term liquidity problem on the part of reckless sovereigns. We have no grounds to expect any retrospective "bank debt" bailout, even if Spain, Italy and Greece get one.

Kenny isn't playing politics, he is being played. Kenny, Noonan, Gilmore and Co. similarly talked up the ECB's debt of gratitude to Ireland, our status as a poster boy of austerity, etc back in Jan and Feb of this year. They got punched in the face and sent crying back home when they asked for a deal on the promissory notes.

Ireland - both the government and the people by the latest referendum - are consistently telling the world that the problem is that of a fiscally reckless sovereign, and that the Nov 2010 bailout will work. So if the plan is working, why change it and invite moral hazard in the face of a German electorate intensely hostile to any idea (no matter how incorrect) that Germany is being mugged?


@Good loser

When you have power (i.e. money) it's easy to cut deals. We don't so we must be shrewd and subtle.

If we dont have power, how come we must grant so much of it to foreign government to run the rule over us?

Power is a matter of perception. We have power. Our government is simply too cowardly to even conceive that we might have power, so advises our people to surrender whatever shreds of it exist. Shrewd and subtle? Where the promissory note deal as our reward for years of dropping our pants and bending over the negotiating table?

We're getting €100 bn at 1%. What do you want?

We?

We're not getting anything like 100bn at 1% - the banks are. Are you a bank? I'm not.

Good loser

Sand wrote: »

I'm not sure of that tbh.


@Good loser


If we dont have power, how come we must grant so much of it to foreign government to run the rule over us?

Power is a matter of perception. We have power. Our government is simply too cowardly to even conceive that we might have power, so advises our people to surrender whatever shreds of it exist. Shrewd and subtle? Where the promissory note deal as our reward for years of dropping our pants and bending over the negotiating table?

No. Power is real. We don't have money so we don't have power. Our lack of money is clear to Europe.

The promissory note 'deal' - as you call it - gave us, i.e. allowed us to print, €32 bn on a promise to pay it off over ten years.

Some now want to renege on that deal - after the first instalment was repaid.



We?

We're not getting anything like 100bn at 1% - the banks are. Are you a bank? I'm not.

The Irish economy - through the banks. Every borrower, every depositor, every shareholder including our Government.

Sand

I'm neither a borrower nor a depositor, nor a shareholder with any Irish bank. So, again, whose this "we" you speak of?

And the Irish banks are simply not lending at all to the Irish economy. This is being shown by credit in the Irish economy collapsing by all measurable means.

So, yet again, whose this "we" you speak of?

the groutch

he's done it the wrong way round.
he should have been saying to them BEFORE the election "give us better terms, or I'll tell the people to vote NO"

Good loser

Sand wrote: »

I'm neither a borrower nor a depositor, nor a shareholder with any Irish bank. So, again, whose this "we" you speak of?

And the Irish banks are simply not lending at all to the Irish economy. This is being shown by credit in the Irish economy collapsing by all measurable means.

So, yet again, whose this "we" you speak of?

We are the depositors, the borrowers and the shareholders. Certainly the majority of Irish adults. And you are, at least, a shareholder through the Government. Also the banks on lend quite a lot of this money to the Govt so they can meet their committments. The banks profits such as they are are used to pay for the Govt guarantee - at least €1 bn per annum.

[Jackass]

New low for forum.

Government achieves goal of yes vote => Government now committed to refocus energies on securing better terms on bailout agreement => ??? => Government being heavily criticised for being cowards, namely Enda Kenny?

Clearly patience is running out and memories are shortening, but the very point that we are a small country makes these deals difficult to negotiate, and we have to be tactical. Anyone with an absolute shred of negotiating experience or knowledge knows that threats are absolutely counter productive, it's not a hostile engagement, and you have to play ball, do your bits (i.e. treaty) and look for your concessions.

We also have to wait on terms for Spain, a much much more powerful nation, and then look to get any of their concessions applied to us also, retrospectively, as the deal was the first nations will get the better terms.

People who criticise Enda Kenny (all of you in this thread) simply have not got the first clue about the position we're in and how to handle it. You make it out like he's a joke, yet the biggest joke is the idea that he would storm into the European Parliament and start banging on the table with his demands, or else....

THAT would be the moment the other leaders laughed at us, whilst turning off the tap of funding, and why would they bother negotiating with us if we're unreasonable?

And what will they say if we cause major problems and don't play ball with our first bailout and need a second? You'll be sure they'll put a condition of "non-negotiable" on stricter terms to force us to comply...

Please, none of you, ever consider a career in diplomatic relations...

Scofflaw

the groutch wrote: »

he's done it the wrong way round.
he should have been saying to them BEFORE the election "give us better terms, or I'll tell the people to vote NO"

That's based on a view that there is no way to negotiate except by banging the table and threatening. How do you ever get to a win-win by that method? Or do you believe there is no such thing as a win-win?

cordially,
Scofflaw