Improving my swimming endurance?

nellocono

OK first let me apologize as I am certain this question has been asked in many forms before...

I am looking for some advice on the swim part of an IronMan or 3.8km...How long would it take someone to get up the endurance to swim this?

I know how to swim and can do a few lenghts of the pool non-stop. However, I know my breathing is the main factor that is stopping me right now as I dont really know how to master it properly. I need to focus more on exhaling under water...

Anyway, my two questions are 1. Is there any videos/books or materials you could advise that would be useful in developing your swimming technique?

and 2. How long does it generally take someone to get up the endurance for a 3.8km open-water swim. Would an 8 week training program work?

Appreciate any and all pointers you can give!

tunney

nellocono wrote: »

OK first let me apologize as I am certain this question has been asked in many forms before...

I am looking for some advice on the swim part of an IronMan or 3.8km...How long would it take someone to get up the endurance to swim this?

I know how to swim and can do a few lenghts of the pool non-stop. However, I know my breathing is the main factor that is stopping me right now as I dont really know how to master it properly. I need to focus more on exhaling under water...

Anyway, my two questions are 1. Is there any videos/books or materials you could advise that would be useful in developing your swimming technique?

and 2. How long does it generally take someone to get up the endurance for a 3.8km open-water swim. Would an 8 week training program work?

Appreciate any and all pointers you can give!

Being brutally honest - you don't know how to swim. You know how not to drown. The "my breathing is the main factor that is stopping me" is a bit of a hint there.

Rather than worrying about the time to get the endurance up you need to worry about getting the technique right.

Get some lessons - one on one with someone who works with triathletes. Join a Masters swimming club or a triathlon club.

Coming from a few lengths to learning to swim, to getting up to finished an IM swim within the cut off times..... I wouldn't aim to do one this summer but next summer would be plenty of time if you worked at it!

Kurt Godel

Can't better that advice from Tunney, but in the spirit of giving you stuff you can practice tomorrow...

1.)Practice breathing on the one side, every fourth stroke. Try and examine what works and what doesn't- are you gasping for air? Getting a gob full of water? Are you exhaling in a burst, or slowly over a few strokes? Then...

2.)Practice bilateral breathing (getting the breath on alternate sides) every three strokes. Keep your face looking down to the bottom, just move your mouth up enough to take a breath (there should be a "wave" cushioning water from your mouth). Once you have the breath, continue the first stroke. Then start exhaling over the next two, so your lungs have emptied enough by the time your next breath comes.

Having said that, if you are only doing a few lengths non-stop, you've bigger issues than breathing to tackle first...

nellocono

Thanks for the advice.

Without sounding too smart, are you saying that everyone that does a triathlon or IM gets professional swimming lessons first?

I think the majority of people who haven't swam in long time would nite jump into a pool and swim non stop for 20 30 or 40 lengths...

RacoonQueen

Put simply, you do it the same way you improved your run endurance by going long and slow. Loads of people fly by me in my gym pool but they can only string a couple of lengths together. In an hour, by swimming slower I swim further than they do.

PM me your email address I have a dvd I got from 220 magazine a couple of years ago. Never watched it myself but it might be of use to you. Best way to work on your breathing is by doing drills really(well thats how I improved though I'm still crap ) so a swim coach would probably be your best bet tbh.

griffin100

nellocono wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

Without sounding too smart, are you saying that everyone that does a triathlon or IM gets professional swimming lessons first?

I think the majority of people who haven't swam in long time would nite jump into a pool and swim non stop for 20 30 or 40 lengths...

Not everyone who does an IM gets swim lessons, but then again not all are trying to go from basic swimming to swimming 2.4 miles in 8 weeks. Consider this, Finks just finish swim plan for IM is 30 weeks and involves 2-3 sessions per week. Can you get to a standard of finishing an IM swim in 8 weeks, I'm sure you can, but it ain't gonna be easy. I assume your biking and running is ok?

nellocono

Not everyone who does an IM gets swim lessons, but then again not all are trying to go from basic swimming to swimming 2.4 miles in 8 weeks. Consider this, Finks just finish swim plan for IM is 30 weeks and involves 2-3 sessions per week. Can you get to a standard of finishing an IM swim in 8 weeks, I'm sure you can, but it ain't gonna be easy. I assume your biking and running is ok?

This is what I was looking for...I just threw the 8 weeks figure out there to guage answers, wasnt expecting to train for this in that short a time... Was just wondering what it took really. I am not really interested in completing a full Iron man just now, just the swimming part or at least get myhead around what is involved in the training.

nellocono

Also, just realized that my gym does swimming lessons programs (8 weeks I think), so I may enroll there to try and improve...

couerdelion

Just like people can complete a marathon in 6 hours if they want you can take up to 2hrs 20 mins to do an ironman swim ( a non-branded event may be different).

If you can swim a 50m length in 1 min 30s and keep that pace going for 76 lengths then you'll finish the swim section in 1 hr 54mins.
Most new swimmers make the mistake of trying to swim as fast as they can straight away and end up having to rest every 25-50m. Swim slow and steady, concentrate on technique drills (in particular the pull phase) and before you know it you'll be swimming the distance easily enough.

Swimming is the one side of the triangle that gives the least return for hours put in though and it takes a lot of time in the pool to gain just a few seconds.

interested

Joining this late but a common question
Lots of entertaining advice so far, so Ill try not to repeat. Going from swimming lengths of a pool to 3.8km in open water can be daunting and it can be a serious challenge to some and less so to others.

You can buy books, watch youtube video's and ask for advice online about hand entry, breathing techniques etc etc but ... the fastest way to improve in my opinion is to follow the advice already given above.

"Get some lessons - one on one with someone who works with triathletes. Join a Masters swimming club or a triathlon club."

Ensure (as much as possible) the person giving advice is providing a return for your money. Be realistic, be up front with them about how much time you have to swim in a week and adhere to their advice regarding drills etc. and employ these as much as possible when swimming on your own or during group swimming.

In my opinion a couple of one on one sessions to begin with and then maybe, one or two for a couple of months should ensure that you've adopted your stroke based on their advice - but hey, if you've got the cash Im sure there are lots of people looking to help you on a more regular basis.

Its worth remembering that after a while its time to work on building swim fitness and endurance if your stroke is sufficient. To determine when this is can be difficult to do without someone who's on the deck looking at your stroke.

One key point often forgotten is that its pretty useful to do at least one open water session per week - swimming in your wetsuit and in different conditions will prepare you for whatever course you eventually take on.


Anyhow- best of luck, it can often boil down to sheer persistence and resolve, there's not many short cuts with swimming, but taking the time to get your stroke more efficient will save you some frustration in the long run.

peter kern

"Rather than worrying about the time to get the endurance up you need to worry about getting the technique right"


that comment is a bit of an chicken and egg question and you cant say that without having seen the swimmer in question.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

"Rather than worrying about the time to get the endurance up you need to worry about getting the technique right"


that comment is a bit of an chicken and egg question and you cant say that without having seen the swimmer in question.

"Problem with breathing" - 9/10 means lifting head and body position.

nellocono

Body position and breathing are not related... At least in this case imo... No matter what position I am in it doesn't take from the fact that I find a breathing technique hard to master....

tunney

nellocono wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

Without sounding too smart, are you saying that everyone that does a triathlon or IM gets professional swimming lessons first?

Nope, but those that don't get them can swim.

nellocono wrote: »

I think the majority of people who haven't swam in long time would nite jump into a pool and swim non stop for 20 30 or 40 lengths...

I think the majority of people vastly overestimate their swimming competency.

nellocono wrote: »

Body position and breathing are not related... At least in this case imo... No matter what position I am in it doesn't take from the fact that I find a breathing technique hard to master....

Right so not related for you...

However for everyone else there is a direct connection between improper body position in the water, also known as balance in the water, and breathing. For everyone other than you the lack of balance in the water stemming from poor body position means that they are in effect always off balance in the water but barely keep it together but when they try to breathe they are already off balance and moving their head to breathe is the straw that breaks the camels back and they sink and thereby struggle to breathe.

shotgunmcos

I've never had one to one lessons. Most of the club have had instruction from a local stroke correction guy. Some have improved significantly others are still there paying through the nose winter after winter. The ones that progress are practicing consistently between lessons. IMO the best way to advance is to join a swim tri group or masters group. Do the prescribed set of work with your mind on one or 2 technical elements of your stroke. Apply what you learn to a real swim set.

Swimming is really technical and the moment you switch off your stroke loses length and force.

As some have said there are no short cuts with swimming. But putting the time and effort into developing your stroke and fitness can be very rewarding.

I found one arm drills very good for developing bi lateral breathing. That and stubborn attention to the purpose of it...

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

"Problem with breathing" - 9/10 means lifting head and body position.

Yep that was me 10000000% and within an hr a coach had it sorted for me and it make my work in the pool so much easier.

peter kern

as elvis says 1 hour should be enough to get the basics right to breath proper
( sometimes 5 min is enough and sometimes it takes a few month)

" The ones that progress are practicing consistently between lessons".
is equally important ....as mentioned above, and you need to want to improve and work hard for it.
there is no easy way...
anybody that says otherwise does so for financial reasons and knows what lazy people want to hear.

peter kern

Originally Posted by nellocono
Thanks for the advice.

Without sounding too smart, are you saying that everyone that does a triathlon or IM gets professional swimming lessons first?

tunney
Nope, but those that don't get them can swim.

you would be surprised how many people that swim well get lessons! I get more decent to good swimmers to 1 2 1 classes than really poor swimmers .

JustAThought

SomE great advice here.

I usually swim 40 or 50 lengths when I swim; & a few years back wanted to improve & make it less boring so I " joined" a swim club . Unbelievable difference; I couldn't believe it. It was a come-along club : one hour a week; with different lengths separated for different standards ; the local rugby club were all in one; firemen in the other ; I was tested & put in withthe kids!! I was so offended! But! Despite my 40 lengths it was amazing what you could do when in a sprint Q with feckin 12 year olds& a coach shouting at you & yelling breathe / change sides; or giving you different swim & stroke instructions. It was Resl eye- opener & amazing learning experience. I'd highly recommend it, or something similar ; particularly with a bit of competitive pressure as your technique improved.

mh_cork

I've gone down this path, I'm training for an IM at the moment and I'm now at the stage where I will be able do the IM swim comfortably. I havent gotton any lessons, I dont do drills or use any equipment. I'm still painfully slow but I did the Double Oly in Athy last weekend and the swim was ok. I have just worked hard in the pool and got the time in since Jan. I'm still only doing 2/3 sessions a week of 2500m, which is only just enough swimming for an IM.

Its strange to hear the difference if someone asks about doing a marathon, IM run, IM bike from beginner status. The advice is always that you need to build up the mileage (think LSD). But for swimming, the advice is usually to get lessons.

If you want to improve your swim, then get wet! There is no replacement. Lessons are great, but allocate 3 times as much time to practice what you are taught. If you can do a few lengths at the moment, then set a target of doing 1000m each session (not in one go, break it up as much as needed) for 2-3 weeks. Once this gets comfortable, go to 1500m. Continue this until you can get to 3000m without any major problems. If you can comfortably do 3000m, then an IM swim is possible (but will require some open water training). It took me about 12 weeks to do this.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Originally Posted by nellocono
Thanks for the advice.

Without sounding too smart, are you saying that everyone that does a triathlon or IM gets professional swimming lessons first?

tunney
Nope, but those that don't get them can swim.

you would be surprised how many people that swim well get lessons! I get more decent to good swimmers to 1 2 1 classes than really poor swimmers .

I was trying to say that not everyone HAS to get lessons, talking down the cost.

I get lessons. I will continue to get lessons. I think expert advice is essential.

interested

arguably off topic but related to swim endurance imho.

out of interest - how many hours a week do people spend swimming in open water ?

I guess the question is based around the principal that swimming fast is all well and good, but it works best when done in the right direction.

Ive checked the swim log in the swim forum and was fairly surprised that few seem to log the distances or hours spent there or the numbers are just less than I expected when the majority of people on here (and the swimming forum) race in open water.

Dont get me wrong, its considerably easier to improve technique or receive solicited feedback from someone on the deck in a pool environment than it is in open water ... but ... at some point ... sink or swim

Im biased at the moment since I either have to do single-leg-flip turns or swim in the sea, but Id normally swim at least 2 or more hours in the sea each week during the summer months. I reckon it definitely helps improve race times, since swimming in a suit again takes a bit of getting used to.

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

I was trying to say that not everyone HAS to get lessons, talking down the cost.

I get lessons. I will continue to get lessons. I think expert advice is essential.

so you are saying you get lessons and get slower ...... please expalin me that and I would like to know how your coach deals with that. He must go ballistic.

ps that has to go in the science thread ;-) ;-)

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

so you are saying you get lessons and get slower ...... please expalin me that and I would like to know how your coach deals with that. He must go ballistic.

ps that has to go in the science thread ;-) ;-)

Firstly I'm not coached, once I lost the commitment to the training there was no point in wasting his time any further.

When I was working with Rich I did improve - alot.

About 3 weeks ago I started back getting help with my stroke. I need it.

So I did get help, and I now get help, its the two years in between that I didn't get help (or swim) that I got slower.

I only swam twice a month in 2011 and amn't doing much better this year!!