Hurling Rankings

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

We are good at overturning the odds, who knows maybe we'll do it again. You'd have to say though, until Dublin and Galway and Cork and whoever do beat us in the championship, it's a bit unfair to say they're better.

You could also argue that Waterford have to beat Dublin to prove they are better than them, or that since the 2010 Munster Replay Cork have improved and introduced some very exciting talent whereas Waterford have unquestionably regressed and now have an absentee list as big as the chip on Davy Fitz's shoulder.

So ye are better than Galway, more consistent yes but better is very questionable, Waterford beat Galway last year and deserved to but Galway were a disgrace the same day and are undoubtedly a better team than that.

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

You could also argue that Waterford have to beat Dublin to prove they are better than them, or that since the 2010 Munster Replay Cork have improved and introduced some very exciting talent whereas Waterford have unquestionably regressed and now have an absentee listas big as the chip on Davy Fitz's shoulder.
So ye are better than Galway, more consistent yes but better is very questionable, Waterford beat Galway last year and deserved to but Galway were a disgrace the same day and are undoubtedly a better team than that.

You could argue anything. How could you say that Waterford have to beat Dublin to prove they're better than them, and at the same time not be saying the same for Dublin? Don't think that's fair.

And if your making that argument, surely to god Premier you'd have to say Galway have to beat Waterford before they can be considered better? They've had numerous chances, 2006, 2009 and last year. Even this year in the league when there was something riding on it, in Salthill where I'd say we never won a game until this year, they f*cked it up!

There's more to being a better team than raw talent. Waterford have a much stronger mindset than Galway, and leaders and that has made us a better team over the last 6 years. All I'm saying as that as it stands we could make a good case for being 3rd best (not that that really means anything at the end of the day) and it is frustrating to hear the same things said year in year out.

I do think we'll probably struggle this year, and won't be third best at the end of the year. But hopefully, as so many have been, I'll be proven wrong by this team.

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

You could argue anything. How could you say that Waterford have to beat Dublin to prove they're better than them, and at the same time not be saying the same for Dublin? Don't think that's fair.

And if your making that argument, surely to god Premier you'd have to say Galway have to beat Waterford before they can be considered better? They've had numerous chances, 2006, 2009 and last year. Even this year in the league when there was something riding on it, in Salthill where I'd say we never won a game until this year, they f*cked it up!

There's more to being a better team than raw talent. Waterford have a much stronger mindset than Galway, and leaders and that has made us a better team over the last 6 years. All I'm saying as that as it stands we could make a good case for being 3rd best (not that that really means anything at the end of the day) and it is frustrating to hear the same things said year in year out.

I do think we'll probably struggle this year, and won't be third best at the end of the year. But hopefully, as so many have been, I'll be proven wrong by this team.

Re Dublin, thats exactly my point, CalvinZola said that Waterford have to be ranked ahead of Dublin until such time as Dublin beat Waterford, my point is why not the other way around??

Agree with everything you say about Galway and they really are an enigma, personally I think Waterford will really struggle this year and I think Clare will beat them in the semi of Munster, but as you say its all opinions and we will see.

MrJoeSoap

I know the GAAInfo site had a ranking system until a couple of years back. Anyone know of anything similar that is more up-to-date. Might be interested in doing one up myself.

dastardly00

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

I know the GAAInfo site had a ranking system until a couple of years back. Anyone know of anything similar that is more up-to-date. Might be interested in doing one up myself.

I can't seem to find any website that has rankings. The last update on GAAinfo.com was 28-SEP-2010. GAAinfo.com used the Elo Ranking system. It could be easier to use a ranking system similar to that used for the IRB World Rugby Rankings maybe!

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

Re Dublin, thats exactly my point, CalvinZola said that Waterford have to be ranked ahead of Dublin until such time as Dublin beat Waterford, my point is why not the other way around??

Agree with everything you say about Galway and they really are an enigma, personally I think Waterford will really struggle this year and I think Clare will beat them in the semi of Munster, but as you say its all opinions and we will see.

I know what you mean, and Dublin probably were better than us last year. It all depends on how you base your opinion on who's the third best team (see below).

I think we could lose to Clare alright. Having said that I wouldn't see there being much in it, and a dodgy decision or anything could turn it. Win that and we're in an all-ireland quarter final and I guess that and being in Division 1A would be an alright year.

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

I know the GAAInfo site had a ranking system until a couple of years back. Anyone know of anything similar that is more up-to-date. Might be interested in doing one up myself.

What would your criteria be? Would it be based on the year before, this year's league form, or would it be an accumalation of a few years results a la the European Rugby ranking system?

MrJoeSoap

Mountainlad wrote: »

What would your criteria be? Would it be based on the year before, this year's league form, or would it be an accumalation of a few years results a la the European Rugby ranking system?

I'm willing to use a cumulation or at least research the best of the options. A lot of research to be done and it will never be an exact science. Watch this space I guess.

aidan24326

1. Kilkenny (the best without a doubt and they show no signs of stopping either)

2. Tipperary (excellent in 2010 but blown hot and cold since. have something to prove at this stage)

3. not much between Cork, Galway, Waterford, Dublin. I think any of those 4 teams could beat each other on a given day. Any of them could beat Tipp too if things went their way, but are a bit away from neing able to chellenge Kilkennny.

Then you have Limerick, Clare, Wexford and Offaly in the next group. Any of them could beat the likes of Galway or Waterford on their day, but wouldn't get near Kilkenny and would lose to Tipp more often than not.

I think that's a fair assessment of it?

MrJoeSoap

aidan24326 wrote: »

1. Kilkenny (the best without a doubt and they show no signs of stopping either)

2. Tipperary (excellent in 2010 but blown hot and cold since. have something to prove at this stage)

3. not much between Cork, Galway, Waterford, Dublin. I think any of those 4 teams could beat each other on a given day. Any of them could beat Tipp too if things went their way, but are a bit away from neing able to chellenge Kilkennny.

Then you have Limerick, Clare, Wexford and Offaly in the next group. Any of them could beat the likes of Galway or Waterford on their day, but wouldn't get near Kilkenny and would lose to Tipp more often than not.

I think that's a fair assessment of it?

I'd have Limerick and Clare in a group ahead of Offaly and Wexford.

1.KK
2.Tipp
3.Cork/Galway/Dublin/Waterford (in that order)
4.Clare/Limerick
5.Offaly/Wexford

premierstone

aidan24326 wrote: »

1. Kilkenny (the best without a doubt and they show no signs of stopping either)

2. Tipperary (excellent in 2010 but blown hot and cold since. have something to prove at this stage)

3. not much between Cork, Galway, Waterford, Dublin. I think any of those 4 teams could beat each other on a given day. Any of them could beat Tipp too if things went their way, but are a bit away from neing able to chellenge Kilkennny.

Then you have Limerick, Clare, Wexford and Offaly in the next group. Any of them could beat the likes of Galway or Waterford on their day, but wouldn't get near Kilkenny and would lose to Tipp more often than not.

I think that's a fair assessment of it?

Hot and Cold?? They have only lost one championship game in the last two years and that was to KK and the 4 point margin was the closest anyone has come to KK apart from when Tipp beat them.

My own ranking would be:
1. KK
2. Tipp
3. Dublin
4. Cork
5. Galway
6. Waterford
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford

Speak Now

premierstone wrote: »

Hot and Cold?? They have only lost one championship game in the last two years and that was to KK and the 4 point margin was the closest anyone has come to KK apart from when Tipp beat them.

My own ranking would be:
1. KK
2. Tipp
3. Dublin
4. Cork
5. Galway
6. Waterford
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford

What about Cork beating Tipp

premierstone

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

What about Cork beating Tipp

That was over two years ago

Speak Now

premierstone wrote: »

That was over two years ago

So 2001 since Tipp went unbeaten in the Championship

dastardly00

^^^^^^
The last few posts are all good examples of why there is a need (for us folk on the GAA forum anyway) to have a ranking system that involves points!!

This is all getting very OT, so maybe we could set-up a thread to discuss how to go about making up a ranking system for hurling. MrJoeSoap said earlier that he was going to do a bit of research into it

premierstone

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

So 2001 since Tipp went unbeaten in the Championship

Yes your point being?? And for your information they went through 2000/2001 unbreaten in all competitions and challenge matches, winning 4 titles

Clareman

Because the Best Teams Never to Win an All Ireland is being taken off topic I'm creating this 1 to discuss people's hurling rankings.

MrJoeSoap

Out of interest, how would people rate the importance of a league game in relation to a Championship game, percentage wise? So assuming that the Championship is the be-all and end-all, how important would you rate the results in the league, factoring in the bit of experimentation that is involved, young players being blooded etc...

60% perhaps?

(Purely thinking of a ranking system here, there simply aren't enough Championship games to use for a system like this. Then trying to factor in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher games will be extra fun...)

hardybuck

1. Kilkenny
2. Tipp
3. Waterford - until beaten by Galway or Dublin beat us I won't place them ahead of us, and we've already beaten both in league this year. Cork also haven't beaten Waterford since 2006 as far as I remember.
4. Cork
5. Dublin
6. Galway
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford

premierstone

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Out of interest, how would people rate the importance of a league game in relation to a Championship game, percentage wise? So assuming that the Championship is the be-all and end-all, how important would you rate the results in the league, factoring in the bit of experimentation that is involved, young players being blooded etc...

60% perhaps?

(Purely thinking of a ranking system here, there simply aren't enough Championship games to use for a system like this)

Dont think you can really come up witr a specific % and if you were to do this I think you would also need to distinquish between knockout championship matches, and povincial games where the backdoor is available.

Fireball07

I reckon:

1. Kilkenny




2. Tipperary
3. Waterford/Cork/Dublin
6. Limerick/Clare/Galway
9. Offaly/Wexford etc.

premierstone

hardybuck wrote: »

1. Kilkenny
2. Tipp
3. Waterford - until beaten by Galway or Dublin beat us I won't place them ahead of us, and we've already beaten both in league this year. Cork also haven't beaten Waterford since 2006 as far as I remember.
4. Cork
5. Dublin
6. Galway
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford

Why are Waterford ahead of Dublin so? Waterford havent beaten Dublin either

Im not saying your wrong btw its just your rationale seems strange, Dublin havent beaten Waterford cos they havent played.

hardybuck

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Out of interest, how would people rate the importance of a league game in relation to a Championship game, percentage wise? So assuming that the Championship is the be-all and end-all, how important would you rate the results in the league, factoring in the bit of experimentation that is involved, young players being blooded etc...

60% perhaps?

(Purely thinking of a ranking system here, there simply aren't enough Championship games to use for a system like this. Then trying to factor in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher games will be extra fun...)

Difficult to judge on 2012 because of the format. From a Waterford perspective, we started off with a new manager and a few injuries, and lost our first game to Cork. Because we were playing Kilkenny & Tipp straight afterwards, we were immediately in relegation trouble.

The only must win game for us with two full teams coming against each other was against Galway, which we won to effectively keep our Div 1 status. In our final game, Dublin were already in a relegation final and a win for us kept us up. So Dublin made a lot of changes and we won in a canter.

So you can see this years league was all over the place.

MrJoeSoap

hardybuck wrote: »

3. Waterford - until beaten by Galway or Dublin beat us I won't place them ahead of us, and we've already beaten both in league this year. Cork also haven't beaten Waterford since 2006 as far as I remember.

I think people are quite quick to use the "X haven't beaten us since Y" card when it suits their county. Because of the nature of the hurling championship, there are always going to be gaps in years when teams don't face each other, particularly teams from other provinces. Therefore it is important that you "triangulate" and "weight" games, so to speak...

Waterford beat Galway by 10 points in a game of X importance
Dublin beat Galway by 6 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Waterford by 21 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Dublin by 4 points in a game of X imporance

The key is in gauging how important the games were and using that as your measuring stick. The Munster Final is a huge occasion, but the losing team know that they have another chance if they lose. An All-Ireland semi-final doesn't afford the same luxury, so should it be classed as more important?

It's far too complicated to just say Cork haven't beaten Waterford since 2006, because in all likelihood if they were to play each other this weekend Cork would be strong favourites.

MrJoeSoap

premierstone wrote: »

Dont think you can really come up witr a specific % and if you were to do this I think you would also need to distinquish between knockout championship matches, and povincial games where the backdoor is available.

Agreed, I've actually addressed that in my next post. ^

hardybuck

premierstone wrote: »

Why are Waterford ahead of Dublin so? Waterford havent beaten Dublin either

Im not saying your wrong btw its just your rationale seems strange, Dublin havent beaten Waterford cos they havent played.

Because Dublin have had a good 2011, but this is only a recent development. Waterford have been consistently winning and challenging for provincials, and in the All Ireland semi's nearly every year over the last 10 years.

Mountainlad

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Out of interest, how would people rate the importance of a league game in relation to a Championship game, percentage wise? So assuming that the Championship is the be-all and end-all, how important would you rate the results in the league, factoring in the bit of experimentation that is involved, young players being blooded etc...

60% perhaps?

(Purely thinking of a ranking system here, there simply aren't enough Championship games to use for a system like this. Then trying to factor in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher games will be extra fun...)

The problem is the incosistency in legaue results and the mitigating factors involved.

My example for the first game between Waterford and Cork for example.

I also felt that in the Waterford v Dublin game that Dublin weren't really trying.

It's diffcult to judge, no question about that.

premierstone

hardybuck wrote: »

Because Dublin have had a good 2011, but this is only a recent development. Waterford have been consistently winning and challenging for provincials, and in the All Ireland semi's nearly every year over the last 10 years.

Rankings are based on current form, and have nothing to do with 10 years ago, Waterford are in decline and Dublin are on anupward curve, it doesnt take Einstein to figure that out. Clare are even favourites to beat Waterford in the Munster Semi which says it all really.

hardybuck

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

I think people are quite quick to use the "X haven't beaten us since Y" card when it suits their county. Because of the nature of the hurling championship, there are always going to be gaps in years when teams don't face each other, particularly teams from other provinces. Therefore it is important that you "triangulate" and "weight" games, so to speak...

Waterford beat Galway by 10 points in a game of X importance
Dublin beat Galway by 6 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Waterford by 21 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Dublin by 4 points in a game of X imporance

The key is in gauging how important the games were and using that as your measuring stick. The Munster Final is a huge occasion, but the losing team know that they have another chance if they lose. An All-Ireland semi-final doesn't afford the same luxury, so should it be classed as more important?

It's far too complicated to just say Cork haven't beaten Waterford since 2006, because in all likelihood if they were to play each other this weekend Cork would be strong favourites.

Well look at it this way:

• Galway have never beaten us. Ever. In 2011 we beat them by 10 points in the All Ireland Quarter final. Knockout.
• Last time we played Cork was in the 2010 Munster final, obviously a huge game, which we won.

If Cork were to play us this weekend they may well be favourites, but they must still go out and beat us. They've obviously targeted the league this year in an attempt to build confidence and momentum, but we all saw how far back they were when Kilkenny picked them apart.

We'll have a better idea of where teams stand in another month or so.

hardybuck

premierstone wrote: »

Rankings are based on current form, and have nothing to do with 10 years ago, Waterford are in decline and Dublin are on anupward curve, it doesnt take Einstein to figure that out. Clare are even favourites to beat Waterford in the Munster Semi which says it all really.

Well on current form we're still ahead of them as we beat them in the league. You may remember them being relegated.

Mountainlad

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

I think people are quite quick to use the "X haven't beaten us since Y" card when it suits their county. Because of the nature of the hurling championship, there are always going to be gaps in years when teams don't face each other, particularly teams from other provinces. Therefore it is important that you "triangulate" and "weight" games, so to speak...

Waterford beat Galway by 10 points in a game of X importance
Dublin beat Galway by 6 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Waterford by 21 points in a game of X importance
Tipperary beat Dublin by 4 points in a game of X imporance

The key is in gauging how important the games were and using that as your measuring stick. The Munster Final is a huge occasion, but the losing team know that they have another chance if they lose. An All-Ireland semi-final doesn't afford the same luxury, so should it be classed as more important?

It's far too complicated to just say Cork haven't beaten Waterford since 2006, because in all likelihood if they were to play each other this weekend Cork would be strong favourites.

Yeah I guess rankings have to have a scientific approach, otherwise as we can see now, there will be a whole load of objections based on subjective views.

I don't think the Munster Final was really representative of Waterford given the way we lined out and the lack of faith the players had in the management's plan.

I think really, the only thing you could say is that rankings should be made in September, probably not just before the championship.

adrian522

I rate Dublin above Waterford at the moment so I wouild go something like this:

1. Kilkenny
2. Tipperary
3. Dublin
4. Waterford
5. Galway
6. Cork
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford.

I'm not fully bought into Cork, despite an excellent league, I think the game against Tipperary will be very telling.

MrJoeSoap

hardybuck wrote: »

Well on current form we're still ahead of them as we beat them in the league. You may remember them being relegated.

Waterford beat Dublin in a game that meant little or nothing to Dublin but a lot to Waterford (and it could be argued that Dublin were looking after themselves for the relegation playoff). Also, Dublin got as far as Waterford last year in the Championship beating Offaly, Galway and Limerick and losing to Tipp in a close contest and Kilkenny by a distance. Waterford beat Limerick by a score, hammered Galway (who, by all accounts were awful last year but still managed to beat Cork by a dozen... talk about Jekyll and Hyde!) but also lost to the same two teams Dublin lost to by a far greater combined total.

Dublins performances in this league campaign (Galway in the 1st/last games and Waterford aside) were very good.

To be honest, the best way to look at it is that all those teams (Cork, Galway, Dublin and Waterford) are very close and any one could beat the other on any given day. No amount of arguing or science are going to give a definitive answer.

hardybuck

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Waterford beat Dublin in a game that meant little or nothing to Dublin but a lot to Waterford (and it could be argued that Dublin were looking after themselves for the relegation playoff). Also, Dublin got as far as Waterford last year in the Championship beating Offaly, Galway and Limerick and losing to Tipp in a close contest and Kilkenny by a distance. Waterford beat Limerick by a score, hammered Galway (who, by all accounts were awful last year but still managed to beat Cork by a dozen... talk about Jekyll and Hyde!) but also lost to the same two teams Dublin lost to by a far greater combined total.

Dublins performances in this league campaign (Galway in the 1st/last games and Waterford aside) were very good.

To be honest, the best way to look at it is that all those teams (Cork, Galway, Dublin and Waterford) are very close and any one could beat the other on any given day. No amount of arguing or science are going to give a definitive answer.

You know what, I'd be just happy if we manage to get over Clare in a couple of weeks if I'm 100% honest!

dastardly00

This has been a busy thread this afternoon!

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Out of interest, how would people rate the importance of a league game in relation to a Championship game, percentage wise? So assuming that the Championship is the be-all and end-all, how important would you rate the results in the league, factoring in the bit of experimentation that is involved, young players being blooded etc...

60% perhaps?

(Purely thinking of a ranking system here, there simply aren't enough Championship games to use for a system like this. Then trying to factor in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher games will be extra fun...)

You could add weighting factors such as:
AI championship: x1
Provincial championship: x0.75
NHL: x0.50

A similar system is in place with the IRB rugby rankings where ranking points gained during the World Cup are worth double compared to the Six Nations/Tri-Nations/Test matches.

Clareman

I would weight games and put points next to each type of game, say something along the lines of.
Win League group game - 1 point
Win League knock out game - 2 points
Win League - 3 points
Win Championship game - 3 points
Lose Championship game - -1 point

Now, I know that some teams will play more games than others, that's why I propose docking a point for losing a game. Once a full ranking was done you could look into a ranking system like the IRB have where the amount of points you get for a win depends on the ranking of the teams you are playing.

calvin_zola

premierstone wrote: »

Rankings are based on current form, and have nothing to do with 10 years ago, Waterford are in decline and Dublin are on anupward curve, it doesnt take Einstein to figure that out. Clare are even favourites to beat Waterford in the Munster Semi which says it all really.

How are waterford in decline? And Dublin on a upward curve? Dublin have just been relegated from the league, and if its championship performances you are going by Dublin have won nothing of merit in the championship in recent years

premierstone

calvin_zola wrote: »

How are waterford in decline? And Dublin on a upward curve? Dublin have just been relegated from the league, and if its championship performances you are going by Dublin have won nothing of merit in the championship in recent years

Do you actually watch hurling at all?? League is about as relevant as a challenge match and to say Dublin have won nothing of merit in championship is been completly unfair, Waterford have never won an AI in my lifetime neither have Dublin, and Waterford are in a province that doesnt include KK which is a huge advantage over Dublin, I know where my money would be if the played in the morning.

redlead

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

It's far too complicated to just say Cork haven't beaten Waterford since 2006, because in all likelihood if they were to play each other this weekend Cork would be strong favourites.

Yeah in the same way that if Galway played Waterford in the morning they would be favourites ....... despite the fact that they never ever beat us :rolleyes:

How people consistently rate Galway so highly year after year is baffling. They are an extremely average side who exit the championship early every year just like the other average sides. When are people going to realise that they are not underachieving at all. Who are all these great players who are underachieving? I thought last year after Galway were hammered by both Dublin and Waterford that people would come to their senses, but I see that they are apparently a top side again ..... have they had a good league or something?

How can a team who havent been a final 4 team in seven years be ranked as 3rd or 4th every year? Am I missing something?

premierstone

Clareman wrote: »

I would weight games and put points next to each type of game, say something along the lines of.
Win League group game - 1 point
Win League knock out game - 2 points
Win League - 3 points
Win Championship game - 3 points
Lose Championship game - -1 point

Now, I know that some teams will play more games than others, that's why I propose docking a point for losing a game. Once a full ranking was done you could look into a ranking system like the IRB have where the amount of points you get for a win depends on the ranking of the teams you are playing.

Over what period of time would the ranking run, ie when would results be discarded, I make this point as if you look at the current debate regarding Waterford a lot of the posters defending Waterford are actually referencing results and achievements of a first 15 that will bear little or no resemblance to the team that lines out against Clare.

dastardly00

premierstone wrote: »

Over what period of time would the ranking run, ie when would results be discarded, I make this point as if you look at the current debate regarding Waterford a lot of the posters defending Waterford are actually referencing results and achievements of a first 15 that will bear little or no resemblance to the team that lines out against Clare.

That's an important point, and one that will always be open for debate. FIFA World Rankings are based on results from the previous four years, which kinda makes sense since World Cups are every 4 years. But there is no defining time point like that in the GAA. The IRB Rugby World rankings, which uses a point-exchange system and take into account results from as far back as 1871 (I think), state that: "The system is designed to produce an accurate picture of current strength, based on results. The importance of past successes will fade and be superseded by more recent results".
Therefore how far back the ranking system should go should be arbitrary enough if a similar system is used for GAA. I suppose it would be up to the person making the rankings and analysing the data to decide :P But the further you go back, the less impact it should make.

MrJoeSoap

The GAA Info site that hasn't been updated since 2010 used the ELO Rating System which seems like the best way to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Here's an example of it being used in soccer:

http://www.eloratings.net/system.html

dastardly00

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

The GAA Info site that hasn't been updated since 2010 used the ELO Rating System which seems like the best way to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Here's an example of it being used in soccer:

http://www.eloratings.net/system.html

Does the ELO system take into enough account the quality of the opposition though? I know it is somewhat included in the 'win expectancy' factor but I'm not sure if that would be enough.

I've been concentrating on more stats this afternoon than in all of my PhD :pac:

aidan24326

premierstone wrote: »

Hot and Cold?? They have only lost one championship game in the last two years and that was to KK and the 4 point margin was the closest anyone has come to KK apart from when Tipp beat them.

Yes hot and cold. A mixed bag in the league, and a laboured win over Limerick last Sunday. Not a great Limerick team either.

I still think Tipp are Kilkenny's nearest challengers (maybe their only challengers) but I do think Tipp have a point to prove in terms of whether they can get back to the heights of where they were.

Sunday's performance won't have the cats feeling too frightened. Still the only team likely to dethrone Kilkenny though. Galway promise a lot but deliver little, Cork are still a work in progress (though improving) and Waterford just aren't good enough to go all the way even though they're still dangerous opponents in a knockout game.

deisedude

I always think it is hilarious people get so hot and bothered arguing over who is the third best team in the country as if it even matters! Its like two bald men fighting over a comb :pac:

calvin_zola

premierstone wrote: »

Do you actually watch hurling at all??

What do you mean by that?

premierstone

calvin_zola wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

well you questioned the statement that Dublin are improving and Waterford are in decline, two pretty obvious facts I would have thought.

redlead

premierstone wrote: »

calvin_zola wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

well you questioned the statement that Dublin are improving and Waterford are in decline, two pretty obvious facts I would have thought.

how so? Dublin have won 1 out of their last 10 league and championship outings. They have declined more this year than waterford. Waterford are apparently in decline every year but they'll prob still end up in a semi and lose by the usual 5 points to a team who is better than them. For all the declining waterford have apparently done, no one has taken their place.

calvin_zola

premierstone wrote: »

well you questioned the statement that Dublin are improving and Waterford are in decline, two pretty obvious facts I would have thought.

I don't think so, im interested to hear how Waterford are in decline this year, because frankly I've been hearing that Waterford have been in decline since 2001, but ya know keep wishing and someday it will come true for ya
I don't agree that the league is insignificant like you mentioned and I think you pointed that out yourself there in your own rankings with Cork ranked over Galway and Waterford

premierstone wrote: »

My own ranking would be:
1. KK
2. Tipp
3. Dublin
4. Cork
5. Galway
6. Waterford
7. Clare
8. Limerick
9. Offaly
10. Wexford

premierstone wrote: »

Rankings are based on current form, and have nothing to do with 10 years ago, Waterford are in decline and Dublin are on anupward curve, it doesnt take Einstein to figure that out. Clare are even favourites to beat Waterford in the Munster Semi which says it all really.

If rankings are based on current form why are Cork are definitely ahead of us I suppose, going by the league that is, like you aren't talking about the championships of recent years cos you said that it had nothing to do with 10 years ago and cork haven't been great in recent times... But no wait then you say -

League is about as relevant as a challenge match

so in that case you aren't making much sense I suppose. And throw your money on Clare if they are favourites with some but not all bookies... when was the bookie ever a good indicator of how good a Waterford team was? We've had many a big pay day in Waterford because of bookies cluelessness and ranking us as outsiders..

DEFTLEFTHAND

aidan24326 wrote: »

Yes hot and cold. A mixed bag in the league, and a laboured win over Limerick last Sunday. Not a great Limerick team either.

I still think Tipp are Kilkenny's nearest challengers (maybe their only challengers) but I do think Tipp have a point to prove in terms of whether they can get back to the heights of where they were.

Sunday's performance won't have the cats feeling too frightened. Still the only team likely to dethrone Kilkenny though. Galway promise a lot but deliver little, Cork are still a work in progress (though improving) and Waterford just aren't good enough to go all the way even though they're still dangerous opponents in a knockout game.

I suppose Tipp took a while to get going in 2010 as well. I think its better for them as they probably peaked too soon last year after winning Munster. The Cork game will be very telling for both sides, I'd fancy the winners to take Munster this year.

Shout Dust

Interesting looking back at these rankings, how quick things change

Realt Dearg Sec

Shout Dust wrote: »

Interesting looking back at these rankings, how quick things change

And if we had another couple of rounds if matches next week they'd be totally different again. Very little between the top teams these days. A puck of a ball here or there and the seasons of Wexford, Dublin, Clare and Cork (off the top of my head) could have been utterly different.