Sucklers or bucket feed?

Manoffeeling

Hi all. I am starting to farm on 70 acres with no sheds but the land is all in the 1 piece. I have money to build a good shed. There is no pressure on me to 'bull' into it as I am a full time carer for my son. but I will be able to farm once the wee man gets stronger. For all the whizz kids out there, I am wondering what the best system is for me. I love the sucklers, but they are time consuming and require a lot of investment. However, dairy calves are more freely available and require alot less capital. My question is from a purely financial point, which is the best system? From a time managment view, the bucket calves are better. What do the experts think??
PS My wife is an accountant so I have been warned to watch the figures!!!!!

Username John

Hi Manoffeeling,

I am nearly afraid to suggest it - but I will...

What about sheep?

IMO there would be a few advantages in your setup.
From a capital investment perspective surely they are the best - you buy sheep this summer - you sell their offspring next summer and still have the sheep to breed again.
You wouldn't need massive sheds either for em.
You would need help prob for lambing, so 4 weeks / year or so. But after that they should fit around your carer job fairly well I would have thought.

There are some smart lads on here with a lot of sheep, who could offer a lot better advise than me (I am just throwing out the suggestion )

PMU

good to see you out on your own now.what about contract rearing dairy heifers

Manoffeeling

Hi John. I like sheep, but lack the certain 'calling' that they require! PMU- I don't know the mechanics of such an arrangment. How does it work? How rearing heifer calves for the suckler market and selling them incalf?

Farmer Pudsey

I go the dairy calves route except you have no housing so another option would be to buy bucked fed weanling in the autuam. However this Fall will be tricky, factory prices will more than likly be strong in the early part of it at least, so this will effect the store trade.

I cannot see the weanling/store trade staying strong into the new year unless Libya/Iran start taking cattle on the hoof so I be inclined to hold off until next spring unless young cattle fall well back from September on.

Tipp Man

Took a quick look on donedeal there recently

There are loads of calves 3 months old on there that are weaned - way less hastle then trying to feed calves.

You'd probably need some kind of shed for the winter though

DMAXMAN

if you are going to be clinical and watch the figures you have to sit down and do your budget. if buying calves you will probably have to factor in meal feeding in the absence of experience. also winter feed and housing. vet can be a big cost especially if you get any respiratory problems.also doing well you would carry the cost of stockk and the rest for up to 2 years.as well you would have to factor in having to buying followers for next year. my suggestion would be to get a good stock farmer to buy you some heifers for summer grazing. shorter term,no need for housing ,sell some stock as year goes on to reduce stocking rate.far simpler

bob charles

unfortunately the best return with the least work will be to rent the ground. say if its decent land 10k for 70ac will be very hard to beat whatever way you try and bend the figures.

if you plan on using the farm to get enjoyment and hopefully a return, buying beef animals in the spring and giving them a good summer at grass and selling again in the autumn may leave a few bob. Very few situations will beat renting out at 10k:mad:

Tipp Man

bob charles wrote: »

unfortunately the best return with the least work will be to rent the ground. say if its decent land 10k for 70ac will be very hard to beat whatever way you try and bend the figures.

if you plan on using the farm to get enjoyment and hopefully a return, buying beef animals in the spring and giving them a good summer at grass and selling again in the autumn may leave a few bob. Very few situations will beat renting out at 10k:mad:

And thats it in a nutshell

Manoffeeling

Tipp Man wrote: »

And thats it in a nutshell

I know but I have 13k in SFP before I step foot in the place. I have been farming a good while but am now on my own. This time it is a money making venture!!

bob charles

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I know but I have 13k in SFP before I step foot in the place.

I hope you will be saying the same in 2 yrs time!! sorry for being a realist but its simples to lose 13k a year on 70ac's especially if things go against you. If you rent with the SFP you would be getting unto 20k a year on the return. Your fooling yourself thinking that farming it can make more money, if your looking at this from a purely financial point of view.

leg wax

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I know but I have 13k in SFP before I step foot in the place. I have been farming a good while but am now on my own. This time it is a money making venture!!

what part of the country are you in,

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I know but I have 13k in SFP before I step foot in the place.

I hope you will be saying the same in 2 yrs time!! sorry for being a realist but its simples to lose 13k a year on 70ac's especially if things go against you. If you rent with the SFP you would be getting unto 20k a year on the return. Your fooling yourself thinking that farming it can make more money, if your looking at this from a purely financial point of view.

Long term lease for ten years @ 10k per yr + your 13k SFp. You would be mad to do anything else unless you have money to throw away. I'm sorry but you will break your back trying to make that return doing anything else. Get a handy job to top it up

bbam

Build slowly.
I think the advice on summer grazing stock is good.
But you could also get in some dairy cross sucks and be rearing them too, once weaned they are similar in management during the grazing season.
I'd suggest heifers all the way. At least that way you could select some at 18 months and put them to the bull.

I think that way you are building numbers and keeping your options open for suckling down the line.

That's a nice SFP to be starting with. Spend it wisely as it may not always be there.

bob charles

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Long term lease for ten years @ 10k per yr + your 13k SFp. You would be mad to do anything else unless you have money to throw away. I'm sorry but you will break your back trying to make that return doing anything else. Get a handy job to top it up

don't think anyone in their right mind would contract into paying SFP for 10yrs, you will be doing well to be still getting a meaningful amount in a years time. IMV subsistence agriculture in Ireland (which most of ag in ireland is) is up the creek without a paddle.

49801

sheep require much more frequent care than cattle. So I'd hit that on the head straight away.

I would look into the contract rearing If I was you. monthly paycheck is very appealing to suckler owners;) and will keep the account happy. calves get delivered to you from the dairy once off milk and stay with you for 18months or so. You keep them growing to hit their targets and get them incalf. The owner still has all the expense of the AI, doses, vets etc. You have the expense of fert and silage. Only thing is you'll have to build a shed but it sounds like you are happy to do that anyways.
Caution Alert. A strong relationship with the owner is very important.

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Long term lease for ten years @ 10k per yr + your 13k SFp. You would be mad to do anything else unless you have money to throw away. I'm sorry but you will break your back trying to make that return doing anything else. Get a handy job to top it up

don't think anyone in their right mind would contract into paying SFP for 10yrs, you will be doing well to be still getting a meaningful amount in a years time. IMV subsistence agriculture in Ireland (which most of ag in ireland is) is up the creek without a paddle.

What I mean is could he rent it in some way and hold onto his SFp?

20silkcut

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

bob charles wrote: »

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Long term lease for ten years @ 10k per yr + your 13k SFp. You would be mad to do anything else unless you have money to throw away. I'm sorry but you will break your back trying to make that return doing anything else. Get a handy job to top it up

don't think anyone in their right mind would contract into paying SFP for 10yrs, you will be doing well to be still getting a meaningful amount in a years time. IMV subsistence agriculture in Ireland (which most of ag in ireland is) is up the creek without a paddle.

What I mean is could he rent it in some way and hold onto his SFp?

If you are getting the SFP you can only have animals in your herd number on your farm.
Don't know where guys are getting the 10k figure on 70 acres.
Most farmers want to pay less than top dollar when they are taking land without maps.
You could be rightly screwed if an inspection reveals you are not actively farming. It's a full 100% SFP deduction if they find you are not farming at least 80% of the land you declare in any given year.
Better off farm it yourself than be fretting about inspections that could take 13K off you at the stroke of a pen.

Farmer Pudsey

If you have 13K SFP there is no fear of you unless you are a right idiot. No one will give you the full value of SFP 13K and rental value. Dept is cracking down on contract rearing unless you own the cattle when they are in your herd No ie you pay a set sum and get a set sum they are cracking down on the so much per day lark. Any way what most dairy farmers pay for contract rearing heifers would not cover costs.

I keep enough this year to draw SFP. I cannot see the price of young stock holding unless Libya/Iran open so do not get caught paying fancy prices for them. With no debt at present you could put up a shed in the medium term. Nothing fancy but I go for a six bay slatted, 16' slats and leave a 20-25 area at the back for crush pens etc.

49801

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you have 13K SFP there is no fear of you unless you are a right idiot. No one will give you the full value of SFP 13K and rental value. Dept is cracking down on contract rearing unless you own the cattle when they are in your herd No ie you pay a set sum and get a set sum they are cracking down on the so much per day lark. Any way what most dairy farmers pay for contract rearing heifers would not cover costs.

I keep enough this year to draw SFP. I cannot see the price of young stock holding unless Libya/Iran open so do not get caught paying fancy prices for them. With no debt at present you could put up a shed in the medium term. Nothing fancy but I go for a six bay slatted, 16' slats and leave a 20-25 area at the back for crush pens etc.

Is that right that you loose the SFP if you go contract rearing?

Farmer Pudsey

I may be wrong but definately it is an issue with the disadvantage area payment and I am not sure about SFP I was getting them mixed however it is something to check out.
The way around it is for you to pay a set sum to dairy farmer/other farmer and get a set sum on finish of contract.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I may be wrong but definately it is an issue with the disadvantage area payment and I am not sure about SFP I was getting them mixed however it is something to check out.
The way around it is for you to pay a set sum to dairy farmer/other farmer and get a set sum on finish of contract.

So by what your saying, you would be giving the dairy farmer a loan:D:D, sounds good, anyone interesting in contracting rearing most of my animals.

I can't see an issue with contract rearing and SFP

Manoffeeling

Contract rearing sounds like a great way to fall out with some one!!

The thoughts of a 'hand shake' way of farming is something that I will never enter again.

I would rather rear my own and sell them. At least if 1 of them dies, it is my loss.

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

So by what your saying, you would be giving the dairy farmer a loan:D:D, sounds good, anyone interesting in contracting rearing most of my animals.

I can't see an issue with contract rearing and SFP

I have heard of one or two doing it this way heifers are put in at a base price and taken back at a second price however the grazing farmer get a nice bit more that 75 cent/day there is targets to be met and any heifer not incalf is held and finished by the contracted farmer

Manoffeeling

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I have heard of one or two doing it this way heifers are put in at a base price and taken back at a second price however the grazing farmer get a nice bit more that 75 cent/day there is targets to be met and any heifer not incalf is held and finished by the contracted farmer

If, if and if. Why, why and will ya? You would want a prenuptial before you'd start.

Farmer Pudsey

Manoffeeling wrote: »

If, if and if. Why, why and will ya? You would want a prenuptial before you'd start.

Not really as have no intrest in contract rearing dariy heifers. Most farmers contract rearing heifers seem to be giving a subsidy to the most profitable section in the agriculture industry.