Plastic Wrapping near runway at DUB. Dangerous ??

charliehotel

At 00:09 it seems that a piece of plastic wrapping/bag is freely blowing across the airfield.

How big a threat would this be if it entered an aircraft engine?

shedweller

I would think the engine could cope. The apu in the tail might choke a bit on it though.

stopthepanic

shedweller wrote: »

I would think the engine could cope. The apu in the tail might choke a bit on it though.

A plastic bag certainly could cause damage. have you ever seen a plastic bag that has had heat added to it? it melts and a melting piece of plastic in a jet engine could have a serious effect on the engines performance especially at a crucial time of take off when defined power is required.

if it burns, it creates carbon deposits and this is bad.

How would the APU even come into question here? it's in the tail section and switched off at this stage.

An Udaras

It's FOD or Foreign Object Debris it certainly has potential to get ingested into an engine.

It's important for airport users and those outside who enjoy the hobby of plane watching to be vigilant against those that litter. I understand that there are no trash bins at viewing spots as the authorities feel if people where dumping there litter it could attract birds so they just hope people take it home with them.

If you notice people littering outside Airports and fear it could lead to/or attract birds contact the Airport Police/Gardai who will respond. Littering or large scale feeding of the birds has the potential endanger civil aviation.

drdeadlift

An Udaras wrote: »

It's FOD or Foreign Object Debris it certainly has potential to get ingested into an engine.

It's important for airport users and those outside who enjoy the hobby of plane watching to be vigilant against those that litter. I understand that there are no trash bins at viewing spots as the authorities feel if people where dumping there litter it could attract birds so they just hope people take it home with them.

If you notice people littering outside Airports and fear it could lead to/or attract birds contact the Airport Police/Gardai who will respond. Littering or large scale feeding of the birds has the potential endanger civil aviation.

Or just tell them to take their **** with them,i HATE people who throw their rubbish on the ground without any care in the world it really pisses me off.

A320

stopthepanic wrote: »

shedweller wrote: »

I would think the engine could cope. The apu in the tail might choke a bit on it though.

A plastic bag certainly could cause damage. have you ever seen a plastic bag that has had heat added to it? it melts and a melting piece of plastic in a jet engine could have a serious effect on the engines performance especially at a crucial time of take off when defined power is required.

if it burns, it creates carbon deposits and this is bad.

How would the APU even come into question here? it's in the tail section and switched off at this stage.

APU may not be switched off at this point,depends on ops,yes its in the tail but the air intake inlet sucks air in through a door facing the airflow but its unlikely to suck any plastic in depending on a/c again.

View Profile

A320 wrote: »

APU may not be switched off at this point,depends on ops,yes its in the tail but the air intake inlet sucks air in through a door facing the airflow but its unlikely to suck any plastic in depending on a/c again.

Had a ground handlers headset get sucked into the APU inlet before on a turnaround. Probably didn't help that he threw it up to a colleague at the rear service door, next to the inlet.

kona

View Profile wrote: »

Had a ground handlers headset get sucked into the APU inlet before on a turnaround. Probably didn't help that he threw it up to a colleague at the rear service door, next to the inlet.

They seem to really do their best to damage aircraft! :pac:

What damage would a bag do? like the chances are it would go through the fan, if it went into the core , would it tangle up or stop in the compressors? I dont think the result would be as catastrophic as other FOD ingestion on T/O?

Harry Bosch.

charliehotel wrote: »

At 00:09 it seems that a piece of plastic wrapping/bag is freely blowing across the airfield.

How big a threat would this be if it entered an aircraft engine?

Are you serious? Do you really think that planes would be allowed to fly if this was a threat to the engine!! Check out how they test engine indigestion.

AfterDusk

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

Check out how they test engine indigestion.

Yeah they have Aviation Gaviscon for that sort of stuff. Nothing to worry about

charliehotel

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

Check out how they test engine indigestion.

As far as I am aware, the dramatic engine explostions which are readily available to see across the internet are to examine a contained engine failure - to ensure that the engine casing remains intact and does not emit any debris when a fan blade fails.

That does not mean that taking in such plastic debris as we have here wouldn't cause damage, so yes, I am ''serious''.

veetwin

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

charliehotel wrote: »

At 00:09 it seems that a piece of plastic wrapping/bag is freely blowing across the airfield.

How big a threat would this be if it entered an aircraft engine?

Are you serious? Do you really think that planes would be allowed to fly if this was a threat to the engine!! Check out how they test engine indigestion.

Mmm I wonder if you were a passenger and saw plastic waste such as this being ingested on the takeoff roll would you not be concerned?

sparrowcar

Even flight crews cause ingestions....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zSgwdXDbbk

Darwin

veetwin wrote: »

Mmm I wonder if you were a passenger and saw plastic waste such as this being ingested on the takeoff roll would you not be concerned?

I'd be more concerned that somebody didn't switch off their electronic equipment for departure as instructed by cabin crew. Why can't people do what they are told? On my last trip, we were waiting for an incoming flight to land when an announcement was made somebody had left their mobile on (not sure how they knew this). One guy hops out of his seat to check his stowed baggage just as we take our position on the runway.

phonypony

I suppose there's also the possibility of a plastic bag getting caught on an AOA vane or melting onto a hot pitot tube!

A320

phonypony wrote: »

I suppose there's also the possibility of a plastic bag getting caught on an AOA vane or melting onto a hot pitot tube!

Or the mechs doing operational tests and not pulling the CBs or doing so incorrectly thus melting the covers onto the probes!!!!!

phonypony

A320 wrote: »

Or the mechs doing operational tests and not pulling the CBs or doing so incorrectly thus melting the covers onto the probes!!!!!

you mean like this - http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4505a76a&opt=0

ImDave

Darwin wrote: »

I'd be more concerned that somebody didn't switch off their electronic equipment for departure as instructed by cabin crew. Why can't people do what they are told? On my last trip, we were waiting for an incoming flight to land when an announcement was made somebody had left their mobile on (not sure how they knew this). One guy hops out of his seat to check his stowed baggage just as we take our position on the runway.

Does anybody know how they are doing this? Never heard of it before but seems interesting, as I am sure it would require fitting of some specific equipment to detect cellular frequencies on board?

Shamrock231

When a message or call comes through on a mobile, it makes that "Thunk-taa-taa-thunk-taa-taa-thunk" sound over the radios. If you get what I mean, like when you leave your phone next to your computer speakers...

A320

phonypony wrote: »

you mean like this - http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4505a76a&opt=0

ha exactly,on the boeing 737 it's not too much of a problem but the airbus has automatic probe heating in low & high settings,believe it or not there is a wrong way of killing power to these probes which actually fool the computers to go into full heat/fail safe mode!!
I Expect to see SB's in the next few years installing an automatic system in the B737

ImDave

Shamrock231 wrote: »

When a message or call comes through on a mobile, it makes that "Thunk-taa-taa-thunk-taa-taa-thunk" sound over the radios. If you get what I mean, like when you leave your phone next to your computer speakers...

Oh ok cool it's as simple as that! I used to hear it the whole time when flying myself in 172's or similar, if either instructor or myself forgot to turn off the mobile. I just thought larger aircraft would have been insulated from that effect to a more substantial degree. Cheers.

A320

ImDave wrote: »

I just thought larger aircraft would have been insulated from that effect to a more substantial degree. Cheers.

well the quality of sensitive wiring and routing rules would be definitely superior to light aircraft

I remember my sister telling me when she flew with etihad a few years ago some lads mobile phone rang very loudly as the plane was belting down on takeoff,the air hostess gave him an absolute bollocking when the seat belt sign went off!!!

LeftBase

A320 wrote: »

well the quality of sensitive wiring and routing rules would be definitely superior to light aircraft

I remember my sister telling me when she flew with etihad a few years ago some lads mobile phone rang very loudly as the plane was belting down on takeoff,the air hostess gave him an absolute bollocking when the seat belt sign went off!!!

I was taking a connection flight in the states with jetblue and some "I know my rights under the 22nd amendment" type refused to end his call and turn his phone off on the taxi out. He kept saying "I have the right to use my phone if I wish" etc. You know how they can be over there!:mad:

Plane returned to stand and he was offloaded.

lord lucan

LeftBase wrote: »

I was taking a connection flight in the states with jetblue and some "I know my rights under the 22nd amendment" type refused to end his call and turn his phone off on the taxi out. He kept saying "I have the right to use my phone if I wish" etc. You know how they can be over there!:mad:

Plane returned to stand and he was offloaded.

Fair play to them for doing that. It's a costly decision to return to stand but they obviously weren't taking any ****e and the principal outwayed the economics. Pain in the arse for all the other pax who do as instructed though.

xflyer

Fair play but argumentally there is some discussion about the effects of mobile phones. The truth is, nobody really knows. There may or may not be an effect but do you really want to be on the aircraft that provides the definitie proof by crashing?

What many people don't realise is that within an airliner they may be close to some vital electonic component.The assumption is that everything is close to the flight deck. That is not true. You may indeed be sitting directly above something rather important in the middle of the cabin. In fact it's almost certain you are.

The modern airliner is a rather complicated vehicle. Despite the impression given to customers that it's some form of aerial bus service. It's not true.

A320

very true xflyer,especially on airbus there is lots of sensitive wiring running along under the floorboards and behind ceiling panels,induced signals onto sensitive wiring is the main concern from what I gather from various courses etc

Su Campu

Good job it wasn't a weather balloon....

http://avherald.com/h?article=450ab9a0&opt=0

A KLM Boeing 777-200, registration PH-BQL performing flight KL-621 from Amsterdam (Netherlands) to Atlanta,GA (USA) with 286 passengers, was climbing through FL150 about 40nm westsouthwest of Amsterdam when the crew spotted a balloon, presumably a weather balloon, passing their aircraft at an estimated minimum separation of 1 meter/3 feet vertical and 8 meters/26 feet horizontal. The aircraft continued to Atlanta for a safe landing without further incident.

The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) rated the occurrence a serious incident and opened an investigation, the DSB reported in their quarterly bulletin.

Tenger

LeftBase wrote: »

I was taking a connection flight in the states with jetblue and some "I know my rights under the 22nd amendment" type refused to end his call and turn his phone off on the taxi out. He kept saying "I have the right to use my phone if I wish" etc. You know how they can be over there!:mad:

Plane returned to stand and he was offloaded.

Excellent, he agreed to their terms and conditions when he booked his flight, one of which was no doubt 'I agree to comply with all instructions given by the aircraft commander or crew'

LeftBase

Tenger wrote: »

Excellent, he agreed to their terms and conditions when he booked his flight, one of which was no doubt 'I agree to comply with all instructions given by the aircraft commander or crew'

He has the right to do what he wants however under the 827th ammendment!;)

urajoke

1 meter/3 feet vertical and 8 meters/26 feet horizontal

Good luck proving that one boys.

oppenheimer1

xflyer wrote: »

Fair play but argumentally there is some discussion about the effects of mobile phones. The truth is, nobody really knows. There may or may not be an effect but do you really want to be on the aircraft that provides the definitie proof by crashing?

What many people don't realise is that within an airliner they may be close to some vital electonic component.The assumption is that everything is close to the flight deck. That is not true. You may indeed be sitting directly above something rather important in the middle of the cabin. In fact it's almost certain you are.

The modern airliner is a rather complicated vehicle. Despite the impression given to customers that it's some form of aerial bus service. It's not true.

The idea that a mobile phone signl could cause an airliner to crash is utterly perposterous. All sensitive cables are shielded from RF interference and they have to be as the signals generated by the aircrafts own systems are much stronger (orders of magnitude). Aircraft are constantly flying through an RF field. It is also likely that every aircraft carrying passengers has at least one mobile phone switched on throughout the flight - and they're not falling out of the sky.

The real threat mobile phones on aircraft is rather ironically to systems on the ground. As aircraft are so high and travel so fast, a mobile phone has the potential to be in contact with many more base stations than normal. This reduces the number of frequencies available for other users on the ground. It also has the potential to crash the less robust switching systems, particularly first generation mobile phone equipment.

Cessna_Pilot

Not to mention how annoying/distracting it can be when the de de de de de comes though your headset on final as some half wit thinks he needs to let people know he's almost home...some people just haven't got a clue...

oppenheimer1

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

Not to mention how annoying/distracting it can be when the de de de de de comes though your headset on final as some half wit thinks he needs to let people know he's almost home...some people just haven't got a clue...

The pilot will only experience that kind of interference if s/he has a mobile phone held up to the headset.

The kind of interference you talk about doesn't happen at distances greater than 3-4m and no passenger is that close to the cockpit headset.

In any case the cockpit headset should be shielded from interference.

Cessna_Pilot

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The pilot will only experience that kind of interference if s/he has a mobile phone held up to the headset.

The kind of interference you talk about doesn't happen at distances greater than 3-4m and no passenger is that close to the cockpit headset.

In any case the cockpit headset should be shielded from interference.

I've experienced it. Our FA caught a passenger making somewhat discreet calls from his seat in the second row.

Stovepipe

Hi there
Older Mobile phones in close proximity to older CRT displays caused the image to distort.I've seen it myself.Doesn't affect modern LCD displays.Mobiles are a hazard when they are dropped in the cockpit and us mechs have to go digging to try and find them. The A320 is a particular beaut in this regard.Regarding the plastic, it's a hazard, no matter now light it is. As for pitot covers, it's rare to ever fully "dress" an aircraft anymore, with it's full set of pitot and other covers, except for air shows or storage, because of the risk of forgetting one. Some covers and blanks, when installed, are very difficult to see.

regards
Stovepipe

bluecode

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The idea that a mobile phone signl could cause an airliner to crash is utterly perposterous. All sensitive cables are shielded from RF interference and they have to be as the signals generated by the aircrafts own systems are much stronger (orders of magnitude). Aircraft are constantly flying through an RF field. It is also likely that every aircraft carrying passengers has at least one mobile phone switched on throughout the flight - and they're not falling out of the sky.

Preposterous or not, no one actually knows what the effect of 130 passengers dialling up their mobiles to tell their relatives that they are on final approach would have on the ILS or autopilot or any of the other systems on board the aircraft. The issue isn't one mobile phone or device. It's a planeload of the things in use. Most probably it would at the very least blank out radio communications with ATC.

The pilot will only experience that kind of interference if s/he has a mobile phone held up to the headset.

The kind of interference you talk about doesn't happen at distances greater than 3-4m and no passenger is that close to the cockpit headset.

In any case the cockpit headset should be shielded from interference.

They aren't shielded, simple as that. It does happen from further away than a few metres. Admittedly that is no more than an irritation. Also an embarrassment when it's your mobile phone.:o

But as I said, one phone is not the problem. It's multiples of devices in use. That might be a problem and until it's proved otherwise. The best option is to restrict their use.

billy few mates

I've seen many plastic bags and wrappers going through engines (in fact just yesterday I fished out the remains of one just yesterday from an engine), there's no danger, they simply get shredded by the fan and most of it gets blown out the back as confetti with a few little bits wrapped around the fixed stator vanes in the coldstream duct.
Once they hit the fan and get shredded the centrifugal force generally throws the debris outboard and it gets blown overboard in the fan (coldstream) duct rather than passing through the core of the engine itself.

As mentioned earlier, plastic bags are far more of a nuisance from a maintenance point of view when they get ingested into the APU air inlet. On many A/C like the B737 for example the APU air inlet is on the aft left hand side of the fuselage just behind door 2 right (galley service door) and its quite common for debris to be ingested when the caterers have the door open and are passing in and out with loose material just waiting to be blown in. What happens then is that the bag blocks the air inlet to the oil cooler causing a 'HOT' (High Oil Temp) shutdown after a few minutes of operating, the engineers then have to go up and fish out the debris from the cooling screen.

Its also quite common (and quite a nuisance) for plastic bags and other debris to be sucked into the ram air inlet ducts for the air conditioning packs on either side of the fuselage, again causing heat exchanger cooling problems and spurious 'pack trips'.
When the air conditioning packs are running on the ground many aircraft have turbo fans to draw more air into the packs for cooling and they create quite a suction force on the inlets. I've lost count of the number of plastic bags, hats, headsets, detachable coat hoods etc I've had to remove over the years from ground handling staff who've got too close to the inlets when doing their walkrounds....

A plastic bag through a modern high bypass engine in really a non event....

A320

billy few mates wrote: »

the APU air inlet is on the aft left hand side of the fuselage just behind door 2 right (galley service door)

Ahem the other left...:D

billy few mates

Damn, I missed that when I edited my post to change it to Door 2 'Right'....:)

As for pitot covers, it's rare to ever fully "dress" an aircraft anymore, with it's full set of pitot and other covers, except for air shows or storage, because of the risk of forgetting one.

Rare it might be, but we fit pitot covers and gear pins to our A/C when they're not going straight back out, at certain times of the year we even blank the APU exhaust to stop the birds nesting in there. We always make a tech log entry to ensure we don't forget to remove them.....