Can a redeployed teacher take the hours of a CID teacher?

anfield liv

Just wondering if you knowledgeable Boards people can assist!!!
A school has a CID teacher with not many hours due to management giving her the runaround and she has 22 teaching hours but few of them are CID, (eventhough teaching in the same school for six years and on 22 hrs for 6 years) and lo and behold ,out of the blue,this teacher is told that her services are no longer required as there has been a teacher redeployed to the school who will take her hours!!!! THOUGHT THERE WAS A PRECEDENT THAT THE TEACHER IN THE JOB,NAMELY THE CID would get first option on the position.Sounds very unfair,should we take action,the union is lukewarm as the incoming teacher may be in the same union as the CID teacher.Does the BOM have a responsibility?Do I smell a BIG legal case here?

linguist

Wow! As a bare minimum, the CID hours should be absolutely protected.

Secondly, if the teacher has had 22 hours every year, there is precedent for those hours to be made CID and backdated to when the CID was awarded. It's definitely a case for the union. The real pity would be if this person hadn't fought for a better CID earlier.

As regards the union and its members...the permanent teacher being redeployed is guaranteed a job so they can't lose really. The union needs to vindicate the rights of the vulnerable party.

spurious

Whether the incoming or CID teacher are both members of the same union is neither here nor there. The two members are not in conflict. The conflict is with management and the issue is protection of the person's CID.

derb12

"Dumped" seems a bit harsh. It is not this new teacher's fault that they are being redeployed.

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

Just wondering if you knowledgeable Boards people can assist!!!
A school has a CID teacher with not many hours due to management giving her the runaround and she has 22 teaching hours but few of them are CID, (eventhough teaching in the same school for six years and on 22 hrs for 6 years) and lo and behold ,out of the blue,this teacher is told that her services are no longer required as there has been a teacher redeployed to the school who will take her hours!!!! THOUGHT THERE WAS A PRECEDENT THAT THE TEACHER IN THE JOB,NAMELY THE CID would get first option on the position.Sounds very unfair,should we take action,the union is lukewarm as the incoming teacher may be in the same union as the CID teacher.Does the BOM have a responsibility?Do I smell a BIG legal case here?

Can you provide a bit more detail?

How many hours does the first teacher actually have on CID? How were they on 22 hours for 6 years yet only hold a CID for a few hours?

If say they have 5 hours on CID and for the last 2 years they have been teaching 22, then they are only entitled to 5 hours. The school is not obliged to give them anything more than their CID states.

If a teacher (presumably permanent) is redeployed - and I too hate the use of the word dumped, the other teacher probably doesn't want to move either - to your school they certainly can take the remaining hours if they are permanent. Those hours are not protected by a CID.

If the first teacher is told they have no job whatsoever realistically in my view they only have a case they have is for their CID hours. The school are entitled (and may be forced) to give the non CID hours to a permanent teacher in this case the redeployed teacher.

anfield liv

First of all can I say SORRY for the use of the word dumped as I may have offended people.The last thing I want to do is offend another person be it teacher or any other profession.
To give a bit more information.The teacher with the few hours CID that is going to be replaced has been teaching 22 hours for the last 6 years,mainstream subjects,honours Irish,if you wouldn't mind, being one.The Principal at the time,going back a number of years knew that a CID would have to be offered if criteria had been met.The hours received were shared between a few teachers meaning they got a watered down CID which has now come back to bite! The thing is that the present incumbent is an honours irish leaving cert teacher and a dept examiner as well as a colaiste gaeilge tutor,very experienced and the rumour is that the incoming teacher is not of the same ilk and this would possibly mean that the school would loose students who would leave and go elsewhere as there is a bit of pressure in the catchment area as it is.This could have far reaching consequences for the future of the school.
Unfortunately Ireland being Ireland there is all sorts of skulduggery happening in the world of Education and the sad fact of the matter is when one section of the dept does not speak to the other all sorts of stuff goes on!You would not believe some of the stories I heard in recent days regarding hiring and moving of teachers,very little respect for so called professionals in this big bad world.

rainbowtrout

I still don't understand why a teacher teaching full hours with mainstream subjects would not have a CID for 22 hours, particularly if they had those hours in their fourth year. Also, if they are as good as you say, why would the principal be trying to avoid giving them a proper CID, and how did they get out of giving that CID. Was it challenged?

anfield liv

unfortunately the problem may have started with the former principal not prioritizing the subject for some unknown reason.Also there were a number of other teachers in the school who required CIDs at the same time so any hours got from the dept were divided evenly leaving damn all per teacher,the other teachers of which there are two have not received full CIDs either!The present principal is now adamant that two of the teachers get CIDs but seemingly the redeployment officer has other ideas,sounds like the usual old rubbish of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing as far as the dept are concerned,and making life hell for all concerned.

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

unfortunately the problem may have started with the former principal not prioritizing the subject for some unknown reason.Also there were a number of other teachers in the school who required CIDs at the same time so any hours got from the dept were divided evenly leaving damn all per teacher,the other teachers of which there are two have not received full CIDs either!The present principal is now adamant that two of the teachers get CIDs but seemingly the redeployment officer has other ideas,sounds like the usual old rubbish of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing as far as the dept are concerned,and making life hell for all concerned.

I still don't get this. The principal isn't given an allocation of hours by the Dept and told 'these are CID hours, divide them between staff due to get CIDs whatever way you think is best'

If the teacher was on 22 hours in their fourth year, then assuming there was nothing unusual about the hours they had, they should have received a 22 hour CID contract. It doesn't matter how many people are due CIDs.

If this is what is actually taking place in your school, then those teachers need union advice and help. That's not how CIDs work.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I still don't get this. The principal isn't given an allocation of hours by the Dept and told 'these are CID hours, divide them between staff due to get CIDs whatever way you think is best'

If the teacher was on 22 hours in their fourth year, then assuming there was nothing unusual about the hours they had, they should have received a 22 hour CID contract. It doesn't matter how many people are due CIDs.

If this is what is actually taking place in your school, then those teachers need union advice and help. That's not how CIDs work.

No doubt the employer (Department/VEC/school) has found a way to write objective grounds into previous contracts for part of the hours.

I always taught 18+ hours but my contract for year four (22 hours) had 7 hours as "not to be considered for CID purposes" as they were from temporary funding such as NBSS.

My hours were my own - I wasn't doing anything for NBSS, no other teacher of my subject was doing anything with NBSS, but my hours were suddenly designated as part-funded by NBSS. A teacher of another subject was given a new NBSS role but my hours were also affected.

anfield liv

a few of us reckon there is /has been something strange going on for a few years and we were kept in the dark....none of our business like!.the religious had a way of their own!! I know in one case while the majority of hours were for a higher leaving cert subject there were a few hours for traveller ed(which I think is gone now),eventhough the teacher in question did not spend anytime specifically teaching a traveller other than if it was part of a mainstream class.As this school year ends the teacher had the majority for a leaving cert honours subject and the rest for history at jun cert hons level,a full 22 hrs again.

bdoo

the allocation for a school is provided by the DES and distributed by the principal. While there will be no allocation for guidance next year many guidance counsellors will have guidance time. that doesn't come from nowhere and the principal has to decide where to find the hours.

my point is that if the school got an allowance of .5 of a teacher for NBSS or whatever that those hours can be used to make an extra split in maths or to ensure that physics stays on the timetable with a small class. Resource hours could be used to make an extra split in maths or something. its all down to decisions by the principal.

The thing is thought that it seems that some principals are avoiding giving the 18 hours to teachers in the 4th year so that they dont get a 22 hour cid. But if it isn't written into the fourth year contract then the cid should issue. so it sounds like a fast one there maybe unless it was the only way to get you the 22 in year Four?

the cid legislation is European law, the redeployment director or des have no call on it if four years have been served unless an objective ground is written into the contract they can only approve new appointments.

ring the union. if all you say is correct the union would sort it very quickly its the one area they are ahead of the curve in because they deal with it more often than most employers.

anfield liv

thanks bdoo,sounds like you could be onto something there,we worship Europe after all!!!!

Does the CID have to be all oireachtas hours,do private hours count?

bdoo

Private hours? is it a private school? The legislation covers all sectors not just education so once all the hours are in the one contract they should count

anfield liv

no its not a private school,its a voluntary catholic secondary school.I assume some of the teachers hours are/were paid by the religious order ...the school trustees.

bdoo

anfield liv wrote: »

no its not a private school,its a voluntary catholic secondary school.I assume some of the teachers hours are/were paid by the religious order ...the school trustees.

I wouldn't be sure about that im in the VEC sector but it would seem strange. Assumptions can be dangerous when it comes to things like this. get facts and tell the union no point going with hearsay and gut feelings tbh.

anfield liv

who could provide the best legal advice in a case like this.The union may not be the best as they may have a conflict of interest in acting for the CID teacher on the one hand and for a redeployed teacher on the other.Any suggestions for impartial knowledgeable legal advice would be great.Please help!!!!

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

who could provide the best legal advice in a case like this.The union may not be the best as they may have a conflict of interest in acting for the CID teacher on the one hand and for a redeployed teacher on the other.Any suggestions for impartial knowledgeable legal advice would be great.Please help!!!!

Realistically the first place to start is with the union because they can advise the teachers on the current state of their contracts and find out why they weren't given contracts for full hours. Then start worrying about the redeployment issue.

bdoo

anfield liv wrote: »

who could provide the best legal advice in a case like this.The union may not be the best as they may have a conflict of interest in acting for the CID teacher on the one hand and for a redeployed teacher on the other.Any suggestions for impartial knowledgeable legal advice would be great.Please help!!!!

if a member of the union is getting shafted they have to act to protect them. the redeployment teacher must be pwt otherwise they would have been let go so their employment is guaranteed and should not cause any issue. it sounds like you are reluctant to use the union. all of the cases are heard in the labour court, the trade unions are best placed to advise on these matters

spurious

Changing the title of the thread.

anfield liv

is there a long waiting list for the labour court? could all this problem be done and dusted by late August?

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

is there a long waiting list for the labour court? could all this problem be done and dusted by late August?

Why does it need to go to the labour court? Why can't you just go to your union?

bdoo

The OP asked about legal advice, I mentioned that these matters were dealt with by the Labour Court where unions are involved. This would make them the best source of information / best route to take.

Unions generally sort things out before this but if there is no joy that is where it will end up.

OP are you just not willing to get the union involved? If you got in touch next week and an official gets on to your case it could be sorted very quickly if it is clear cut.

Either way you'd be better off talking to someone there. People on here don't know the full story and can only give advice as they see it, It seems also that you are not exactly sure of the full details yourself. So once again - get on to your union

rainbowtrout

bdoo wrote: »

The OP asked about legal advice, I mentioned that these matters were dealt with by the Labour Court where unions are involved. This would make them the best source of information / best route to take.

Unions generally sort things out before this but if there is no joy that is where it will end up.

OP are you just not willing to get the union involved? If you got in touch next week and an official gets on to your case it could be sorted very quickly if it is clear cut.

Either way you'd be better off talking to someone there. People on here don't know the full story and can only give advice as they see it, It seems also that you are not exactly sure of the full details yourself. So once again - get on to your union

Ya, I was referring to the OP's reluctance to get the union involved, which seems a little strange. They are used to dealing with CID issues and can in many cases resolve the situation without the need to engage solicitors or go to court. Wondering why this route has not been taken.

anfield liv

There was a call put through to the Union,some union officials are extremely progressive while others seem to take somewhat of an evasive action when it comes to dealing with complex issues.This case is a rotten can of worms which was let to rot and fester over a good few years and is now coming to light in this era of austerity with no one being able to give a definitive answer.If a teacher was required in a school for 6 years and is still is required in the school,should that teacher not have a right to a full CID (no matter whether a redeployed teacher is shifted from another school or not.)What is the legal answer remembering that the school is a voluntary catholic school paying part of the said teachers wages with the remainder coming from the dept.Would European employment law force the dept and or school to prioritize the position of this teacher considering that he was ,is and will be needed over the coming years?

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

There was a call put through to the Union,some union officials are extremely progressive while others seem to take somewhat of an evasive action when it comes to dealing with complex issues.This case is a rotten can of worms which was let to rot and fester over a good few years and is now coming to light in this era of austerity with no one being able to give a definitive answer.If a teacher was required in a school for 6 years and is still is required in the school,should that teacher not have a right to a full CID (no matter whether a redeployed teacher is shifted from another school or not.)What is the legal answer remembering that the school is a voluntary catholic school paying part of the said teachers wages with the remainder coming from the dept.Would European employment law force the dept and or school to prioritize the position of this teacher considering that he was ,is and will be needed over the coming years?

This is what I was asking in my original response.

If your local rep won't do anything go to your area rep.

These are the questions/facts I would be asking/presenting:

• What hours was the teacher on in Years 1, 2, 3, and 4, particularly Year 4.
• What was the breakdown of those hours; mainstream, resource, department paid, privately paid etc, again with particular reference to Year 4.
• What paperwork does the teacher have to back all of this up: Payslips and contracts for those years.
• What CID was actually received in contrast to hours on contract in Year 4. If there is a discrepancy (which there seems to be going by your previous posts), why is there a discrepancy? Was there any objective justification written into the teachers contract for not counting hours towards a CID?
• From a legal standpoint why did the school not give the teacher a CID for the hours they had in their fourth year, particularly when they continued to teach those hours in their 5th and 6th year.

All of those questions need to be answered, and a resolution sought before the issue of redeployment can be addressed in my opinion. If this teacher is entitled to a 22 hour CID, then the issue of redeployment should be solved as there won't be a position in your school to redeploy the other teacher into and the department will have to find somewhere else for them.

anfield liv

I appreciate the advice,Rainbowtrout and will get working on your suggestions right away.Will keep you updated.Thanks a million

anfield liv

just had a word from my colleague who reckons a right pigs ear was made of their case, the redeployed person is in situ seemingly which was as expected,but instead of sorting out a decent timetable for the person who should have had a proper cid that person gets a concoction of what can only be described as pic and mix which will do untold damage for the pursuit of a cid next yr. I am back on friday so will know more then!:(

seavill

So they should have a CID this year or next I'm confused reading your post

anfield liv

I see it this way,teacher will be deemed surplus to needs next year and be let go,this was the year to push the dept for a proper cid as the teacher was teaching the same subjects for the past 5 years,the impetus has now been lost and the new watered down timetable will take from the teachers chances of getting any sort of cid!

bdoo

anfield liv wrote: »

I see it this way,teacher will be deemed surplus to needs next year and be let go,this was the year to push the dept for a proper cid as the teacher was teaching the same subjects for the past 5 years,the impetus has now been lost and the new watered down timetable will take from the teachers chances of getting any sort of cid!

Detail is very hard to get from you.

How many hours are in this years contract? Is there an objective ground? Is the teacher teaching a subject that is being phased out? How else could they be surplus to requirements?

Why did they not push for a cid?

seavill

anfield liv wrote: »

I see it this way,teacher will be deemed surplus to needs next year and be let go,this was the year to push the dept for a proper cid as the teacher was teaching the same subjects for the past 5 years,the impetus has now been lost and the new watered down timetable will take from the teachers chances of getting any sort of cid!

But if they are already entitled to a CID and should have one by now this years timetable is irrelevant.

As far as I am aware your CID is based on your hours of your 4th year (correct me someone if I am wrong) so this years timetable will be irrelevant.
They need to now apply for the CID as they should have one now it seems, using the 4th years hours, get the union involved to fight the case.

Giving up and hoping for a CID next year makes no sense, why wait for something that you should have already gained.

Start the process now and get the union involved it will be definitely sorted, I'm baffled by this one to be honest

doc_17

I thought you had the CID already OP!

rainbowtrout

anfield liv wrote: »

I see it this way,teacher will be deemed surplus to needs next year and be let go,this was the year to push the dept for a proper cid as the teacher was teaching the same subjects for the past 5 years,the impetus has now been lost and the new watered down timetable will take from the teachers chances of getting any sort of cid!

No that's not the way it works. Unless you let it go. It's not relevant what the teacher's timetable is this year and going by your earlier posts that teacher should be starting their 6th year if I'm not mistaken?

If the teacher, through the union puts up a case for a proper CID, that CID will be based on the hours they were on in their fourth year not what they are on this year, based on the fact that it should have been awarded after four years were completed. Basically the CID would be backdated to when it should have been awarded.

If the teacher wins and gets their CID and the redeployed teacher is still on staff it's the principals problem how to sort out the timetable. Go back to the union and push them to sort this out sooner rather than later.

bdoo

From the outset the op has been very unclear about any detail in this matter.

It strikes me that if he was so certain that an injustice had been done that he would be able to offer clear answers to questions posted here in an effort to help.

As I said before facts are what are needed here and until the op provides them and gets over the highly emotive phrases nobody here can give any real advice.

In any case posters here can do nothing to help his colleague which is why I and others advised union contact two months ago.

It may make him feel better to whine on this forum but until action is taken nothing will change