What if you're wrong ?

Opticom

Entertaining answer, but he never actually answers the question :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

So (and this applies to Theists as well as Atheists) what is your answer ?

Sindri

42

Kylo Ren

7

kylith

Then I'm wrong. If there is a god I'm sure it'll forgive me for not believing in something there was no evidence for.

Dades

You'd need to elaborate. Wrong about which religion?

Some deities are a little more insecure and petty than others.

MagicMarker

Have I been transported 6 years into the past?

What kind of answer are you expecting OP? Who gives a shít if we're wrong? I'm not going to believe in the existence of something just because I might be wrong in thinking it doesn't exist.

Frankly, it's a retarded question.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

So (and this applies to Theists as well as Atheists) what is your answer ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIymF6Fx6c

Sindri

If I was simply wrong and there was some omnipotent supernatural "God like" being or whatever qualifies as a God?

Well then I would have to at least acknowledge it's existence.

Galvasean

Pascal's Wager strikes again.
I think opposition to the wager can be summed up in a Simpsons quote (is there anything they can't do?):
"What if we picked the wrong religion? We'd just be making the real God madder and madder."

endacl

Sindri wrote: »

If I was simply wrong and there was some omnipotent supernatural "God like" being or whatever qualifies as a God?

Well then I would have to at least acknowledge it's existence.

Damn. That's what I wanted to say...

Aidan_a

My philosophy (please bear with I'll get to your question in a minute) is that nobody knows and and anyone who's says any different is talking ****. What you do know however is that you are alive right now and you might as well enjoy it while it lasts.
But the whole idea that humans are super to other forms of life and will live forever doesn't really click with me. What makes humans so special? And afterlife for eternity, I would go insane after a few billion years of boredom. I think I would rather be mortal and I don't know I think everything has a beginning and an end, nothing lasts forever.

Anyway, if i'm wrong, no big deal, then I wake up in an afterlife, there's a god who tortures people in hell for eternity, I can't respect a person/ god who would do that to anyone, not a mind worship it.
But anyway either way i'm not scared of death at least not right now, maybe I will be when I get older...

Opticom

Dades wrote: »

You'd need to elaborate. Wrong about which religion?

Some deities are a little more insecure and petty than others.

Wrong about your particular belief / non belief, whether that is about your own particular religion (if you have one) or Atheism. I don't expect everyone to have a same answer, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer either, I expect everyone who's thought about it, will answer it in their own way.

kippy

Opticom wrote: »

Wrong about your particular belief / non belief, whether that is about your own particular religion (if you have one) or Atheism. I don't expect everyone to have a same answer, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer either, I expect everyone who's thought about it, will answer it in their own way.

You believe what you believe/you don't believe as the case may be. There's no wrong. It's not an exam.

Opticom

Galvasean wrote: »

Pascal's Wager strikes again.

I didn't intend for it to be about Pascal's wager, it's just a question, not which is the 'best' bet, or 'best' answer.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

Wrong about your particular belief / non belief, whether that is about your own particular religion (if you have one) or Atheism. I don't expect everyone to have a same answer, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer either, I expect everyone who's thought about it, will answer it in their own way.

I don't think you get the point Dades is making. Let's say that we take atheism as an example since we're in A&A. For those of us who are atheists, if we're wrong then there must be at least one god. Now before we even get to the difference between mono and polytheism there is a big difference between Yahwheh and Loki for example. So it would help to answer your question if we knew what god you are proposing to exist in this hypothetical scenario.

Opticom

kippy wrote: »

You believe what you believe/you don't believe as the case may be. There's no wrong. It's not an exam.

Exactly, it's opinion.

I'm just interested in the potentially different personal answers as to 'what if you're wrong ?'

Dades

That's a bit vague...

Everyone, religious or not, is potentially wrong about an infinite number of religions.

The consequences of being wrong I guess depend on how much of your life you've wasted on the wrong belief, or the unlikely scenario that there is a god and he's a real bollocks.

So as long as you haven't wasted your life, or whatever *god* there turns out to be doesn't give a crap whether you believe in him or not then it's all good.

Opticom

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I don't think you get the point Dades is making. Let's say that we take atheism as an example since we're in A&A. For those of us who are atheists, if we're wrong then there must be at least one god. Now before we even get to the difference between mono and polytheism there is a big difference between Yahwheh and Loki for example. So it would help to answer your question if we knew what god you are proposing to exist in this hypothetical scenario.

For the sake of discussion, I presume some people here, culturally might pick the Christian God, as they are most likely familiar with that concept, or they may prefer to pick another one, or give a general answer, that's up to them.

Forest Demon

I am going to be a like Neo in the Matrix and fly into the air

Jimoslimos

If I'm wrong so be it, won't make much difference.

I get judged by a gentle, caring god - YAY!! Forgiveness, angels playing harps on fluffy clouds, 72 virgins, <insert random religious heaven concept>. No difference and haven't wasted my life 'believing'.

On the other hand, if I'm wrong and get a vengeful, spiteful god and end up banished to burn in the fiery depths of hell for eternity, meh - not the best but lets face it, I've done enough 'evil' according to religious teaching I'd probably be heading that direction anyway - belief or no belief.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

For the sake of discussion, I presume some people here, culturally might pick the Christian God, as they are most likely familiar with that concept, or they may prefer to pick another one, or give a general answer, that's up to them.

OK, with specific regard to the Christian God, if I'm wrong and the universe is at the whim of this genocidal, homophobic, mysogynistic, petty little prick then we should be afraid. Very afraid.

However, I would like to reiterate that given the differences between the soteriological claims and moral punishments of different religions, it's not possible to give a general answer to the question.

Sarky

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. If I die and I get judged by a god, I'll shrug, explain how weak the evidence for it was, maybe apologise, and then see just how full of forgiveness it is. I'm willing to bet not very, if available records are anything to go by.

Opticom

oldrnwisr wrote: »

OK, with specific regard to the Christian God, if I'm wrong and the universe is at the whim of this genocidal, homophobic, mysogynistic, petty little prick then we should be afraid. Very afraid.

You really believe that ? Fair enough.

I would say it would depend more how you have treated others, as presumably your belief that there was no God was held with a sincere deep down honest conviction, so I don't see how you could be faulted for that alone.

That's how I tend to see others, i.e. how they treat other people, not what they happen to 'believe' / don't believe.

Tigger

Why is the atheism forum dedicated to justifying athiesm?

What if we are wrong and scientology is the right way ?
What if we are wrong And the Christian god allows a man who covered up many many atrocities against children to be his friend in earth
What I the Muslims really get to go to heaven and have loads of virgins refuse to shag them for all eternity
What if the Native Americans were right and white people almost wiped them out

The concept of god is farcacle it was invented by primitaves to explain stuff and while holding onto some of the concepts values or culture is ok: constantly asking people who are developed enough to realise its all crap is in my educated opinion equal to arguing with a child who was told something by their mother and now won't accept a blatant truth.

Gregor Samsa

If I'm wrong, I'll apologise profusely to Moloch, punch Horus in the face, and run away from Zeus in case he tries to rape me in bull-form.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

You really believe that ? Fair enough.

Let me see...

genocidal - Genesis 6-7, Genesis 19, 1 Samuel 15

homophobic - Leviticus 18:22

mysogynistic - 1 Timothy 2:12

So yeah.

Opticom wrote: »

I would say it would depend more how you have treated others, as presumably your belief that there was no God was held with a sincere deep down honest conviction, so I don't see how you could be faulted for that alone.

That's how I tend to see others, i.e. how they treat other people, not what they happen to 'believe' / don't believe.

First of all, I have to say that it is nice to see that you have developed your own moral compass. Really. I'm not being sarcastic or patronising. If more people practiced that then we'd all be better off.

However, that is not what Christian soteriology claims. There is a difference of opinion between certain New Testament writers such as James and Paul regarding the most important characteristic required for salvation but belief in God is most definitely a requirement no matter where you look. It does, according to the Bible, matter what you believe/don't believe and this is demonstrated throughout the Old and New Testament including the first commandment in Exodus and Paul's unequivocal statement in Galatians 2:16.

Finally, just to correct your misconception I don't positively believe that no god exists. I merely reject the assertions of the god concepts with which I have been presented because they lack any evidentiary support.

Opticom

Tigger wrote: »

asking people who are developed enough to realise its all crap is in my educated opinion equal to arguing with a child who was told something by their mother and now won't accept a blatant truth.

Anyone can be wrong, I can be wrong, you can be wrong, other people can be wrong, or do I misunderstand you, are you saying you cannot be wrong ?

endacl

phutyle wrote: »

If I'm wrong, I'll apologise profusely to Moloch, punch Horus in the face, and run away from Zeus in case he tries to rape me in bull-form.

Best answer. And I'll sort loki while you're at that. Tricky little bugger, loki...

Littlehorny

If atheists are proved wrong, fair enough they have been proved wrong the evidence has revealed the truth. But what if atheists were ever proved right what would happen around the world? Doesnt bear thinking about imo.

Sarky

People would realise that they are solely responsible for their happiness and the happiness of others, and the survival of the planet, and might drop all that silly hatred and segregation stuff to collaborate in an effort to make sure some of us manage to live on another planet by the time this one gets annihilated by long-overdue meteorite strike.

Or something else entirely. We'd probably see a fair few once-religious people reveal themselves to be sociopaths at heart.

Galvasean

endacl wrote: »

Best answer. And I'll sort loki while you're at that. Tricky little bugger, loki...

I have a plan to deal with him...

Since I'm posting blockbuster movie clips, was anyone else reminded of this when reading the thread title?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pLzrlYQ7UM

Anyone?

Doom?

Littlehorny

Sarky wrote: »

People would realise that they are solely responsible for their happiness and the happiness of others, and the survival of the planet, and might drop all that silly hatred and segregation stuff to collaborate in an effort to make sure some of us manage to live on another planet by the time this one gets annihilated by long-overdue meteorite strike.

Or something else entirely. We'd probably see a fair few once-religious people reveal themselves to be sociopaths at heart.

Thats what i am thinking, met a few very religious people in my life who were right hateful, nastys b*****ds. Think alot of self righteous people just could not cope with being shown up as being wrong about something, also America would descend into turmoil.

Opticom

oldrnwisr wrote: »

First of all, I have to say that it is nice to see that you have developed your own moral compass. Really. I'm not being sarcastic or patronising. If more people practiced that then we'd all be better off.

Well in fairness I know quite a few Christians/Theists/Atheists that get this, but you're right quite a few Christians/Theists/Atheists don't. If we all got it, the world would be a better place for all.

Apologies for quoting here, but just in case you want to remind a few 'Christians' in future :

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” - Matthew 22:34-40

oldrnwisr wrote: »

However, that is not what Christian soteriology claims.

I'm not sure I agree it does.

From the Catechism : "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Also "A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience "

St. Agustine was also very big on following your conscience regard beliefs.

Presumably, a lot of Atheists, deep down believe with an honest heartfelt sincere conviction that there is no God, therefore, provided such Atheists treat everyone with sincerity and kindness, I cannot see how they can be faulted much ? Would they not fair out far better than the ‘Christian’ that believed in God, yet treated others badly ?

Sarky wrote: »

Or something else entirely. We'd probably see a fair few once-religious people reveal themselves to be sociopaths at heart.

I have to agree, but also a fair few once agnostics as well.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

Well, I have lots of other faults to make up for it, but hopefully more 'Christians' get it, because it's basic bible 101

Apologies for quoting here, but just in case you want to remind a few 'Christians' in future :

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” - Matthew 22:34-40

Jesus doesn't teach here that these are the only commandments but rather that these two principles represent the spirit of the law. Jesus makes it quite clear in Matthew 5:17 and again in Matthew 19:17 and Matthew 24:34-35.

It is only with the writings of Paul that there begins a gradual rejection of Jewish law as seen in Colossians 2:16-17.

Opticom wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree it does.

From the Catechism : "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Also "A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience "

Presumably, a lot of Atheists, deep down believe with an honest heartfelt sincere conviction that there is no God, therefore, provided such Atheists treated everyone with sincerity and kindness, I cannot see how they can be faulted ? In fact would they not fair out far better than the ‘Christian’ that believed in God, yet treated others badly ?

Couple of problems with this.

Firstly, the paragraph begins by talking about those "who do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church." I'm not sure that there are many if any atheists in this country who fall into that category.

Secondly, the part I have highlighted shows that even in the Catholic tradition belief is a primary requirement contrary to your previous assertion about it all being about treating others right.

Thirdly, the paragraph instructs people to do behave in line with God's will and not the benefit of your fellow man.

Finally, while the Bible is itself a man-made text, the CCC is even more so. Unless you can provide a theological justification for such a passage it might as well just be the Pope reading out the cricket scores.

In the end, to get back to one of my previous points, what you believe is promoted in the New Testament as the key component of salvation. The idea of being saved by faith alone is mentioned no less than 12 times in the New Testament (Romans 3:28-30, 4:5, 5:1, 9:30, 10:4, 11:6; Galatians 2:16, 2:21, 3:5-6, 3:24; Ephesians 2:8-9 and Philippians 3:9).

Tigger

Opticom wrote: »

Anyone can be wrong, I can be wrong, you can be wrong, other people can be wrong, or do I misunderstand you, are you saying you cannot be wrong ?

In general of course I can be wrong
In the case of whether the bible ( for example) is a book written to explain stuff by primitives to primitives then no I cannot be wrong.

Opticom

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Jesus doesn't teach here that these are the only commandments but rather that these two principles represent the spirit of the law. Jesus makes it quite clear in Matthew 5:17 and again in Matthew 19:17 and Matthew 24:34-35.

It is only with the writings of Paul that there begins a gradual rejection of Jewish law as seen in Colossians 2:16-17.

Couple of problems with this.

Firstly, the paragraph begins by talking about those "who do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church." I'm not sure that there are many if any atheists in this country who fall into that category.

Secondly, the part I have highlighted shows that even in the Catholic tradition belief is a primary requirement contrary to your previous assertion about it all being about treating others right.

Thirdly, the paragraph instructs people to do behave in line with God's will and not the benefit of your fellow man.

Finally, while the Bible is itself a man-made text, the CCC is even more so. Unless you can provide a theological justification for such a passage it might as well just be the Pope reading out the cricket scores.

In the end, to get back to one of my previous points, what you believe is promoted in the New Testament as the key component of salvation. The idea of being saved by faith alone is mentioned no less than 12 times in the New Testament (Romans 3:28-30, 4:5, 5:1, 9:30, 10:4, 11:6; Galatians 2:16, 2:21, 3:5-6, 3:24; Ephesians 2:8-9 and Philippians 3:9).

In fairness, some Christians might have that interpretation, but basically without boring you to death with counter quotes, that would not be consistent with the theology of mainstream Christian denominations, in summary the consistent position would be that it's up to God's judgement regarding a genuine, ethical and moral Atheist.

Opticom

Tigger wrote: »

In general of course I can be wrong
In the case of whether the bible ( for example) is a book written to explain stuff by primitives to primitives then no I cannot be wrong.

Out of interest, what would you define as 'primitives ?'

The Mad Hatter

If I'm wrong nothing happens. We go to jail, peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it. But if I'm right, you, Lenny, will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters.

endacl

Opticom wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you define as 'primitives ?'

Bronze age mud-hut dwellers who lived on a flat earth?

endacl

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

If I'm wrong nothing happens. We go to jail, peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it. But if I'm right, you, Lenny, will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters.

Oh, masterful quote pickin' there sir. I doff my hat. Not a mad one, yet doffed nonetheless.:D

krudler

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

If I'm wrong nothing happens. We go to jail, peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it. But if I'm right, you, Lenny, will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters.

woooaahooah so you better watch out, you better not cry..

pauldla

If I'm wrong, I'll look god squarely in one of his eyes and say

"I'm not wrong. YOU'RE wrong! The whole freaking system is wrong! You want the truth? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth! 'Cause when you reach over and put your hand into a pile of goo that was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do!! Forget it Lord, it's Chinatown!"

Then I'll ask if they have cake.

Kivaro

Sindri wrote: »

42

That IS the answer.

But what is the question? (Which is more important)

Kivaro

Sarky wrote: »

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. If I die and I get judged by a god, I'll shrug, explain how weak the evidence for it was, maybe apologise, and then see just how full of forgiveness it is. I'm willing to bet not very, if available records are anything to go by.

Why apologise?
I would tell it to "F" off, and the high horse he rode in on.

(the horse would presumably have wings .....)

legspin

I will bear the consequences of my decision as honestly as I can. If that means I am condemed to hell and eternal suffering then so be it. Any "god" that is willing to let that happen really is a nasty little shít and I don't want to be anywhere near it at all.

oldrnwisr

Opticom wrote: »

In fairness, some Christians might have that interpretation, but basically without boring you to death with counter quotes, that would not be consistent with the theology of mainstream Christian denominations, in summary the consistent position would be that it's up to God's judgement regarding a genuine, ethical and moral Atheist.

Well you see there's the problem. It seems to me that there are an increasing number of Christian denominations which fall into the trap of the Courtier's Reply, the Catholic church being the most obvious example. I'm not really interested in what some church or denomination says about the bible or how it interprets it, I'm interested in what the Bible actually says. Oh, and I think you'll find that a sola scriptura approach is much more common than you're making out.

Secondly, I think that the idea that there is a consistent theology among Christian denominations, mainstream or otherwise is laughable. If that were the case we wouldn't have over 33000 of them.

Finally, I can't help but notice that you haven't yet answered your own OP. So what if you're wrong? What if say, Allah, for example, is the correct choice?

Penn

If I'm wrong, I'll be in the same boat as everyone else, because I seriously doubt there is anyone on the planet who has lived exactly how some supernatural deity, who doesn't communicate with us but seems really strict and precise with his what he wants us to do, wants us to live to meet his 'criteria'.

How many religions use the same Bible?
How many denominations stem from the same religion but do things differently?
How many people interpret parts of the religion differently?
How many different religions are there to begin with?
How many false gods have been worshipped?
Is it someone's fault they worshipped the wrong god if they never heard of the true god due to where they live?
How many people tried to live the right way but failed due to the actions of someone else?
If we are born with sin, or a desire to sin, how could we ever be truly good?

The entrance criteria is so high, that if I'm going to Hell, I'm going there with everyone else.

Sarky

Kivaro wrote: »

Why apologise?
I would tell it to "F" off, and the high horse he rode in on.

(the horse would presumably have wings .....)

I only might apologise. I'm allowing for the tiny chance that God might actually have a good reason for appearing to act like a vindictive jealous petty sociopathic little sh*t. Chances are he has no such excuse, and if that results in punishment for me, well my point is made for me.

robindch

Penn wrote: »

If I'm wrong, I'll be in the same boat as everyone else, [...]

Well, look at it this way -- if we're all wrong, then it'll be a massive A+A forum for all eternity.

There are worse places to be.

joseph brand

robindch wrote: »

Well, look at it this way -- if we're all wrong, then it'll be a massive A+A forum for all eternity.

There are worse places to be.

Jesus Camp.
Knock.

Penn

robindch wrote: »

Well, look at it this way -- if we're all wrong, then it'll be a massive A+A forum for all eternity.

There are worse places to be.

Plus, we could all get together and play "Spot the guy we read about in the Ongoing Religious Scandals thread"