Raw feeding: are vegetables important?

bluecherry74

I've been raw feeding my 2 dogs for a few weeks now and have seen a massive improvement in their health - their poos are perfect (if you know what I mean! ) and one of them who had a very dry coat is starting to get a lovely shine.

They've been getting mainly chicken legs, mince beef, heart and eggs with salmon oil and the odd mackerel. This weekend I decided to introduce some cooked veg after reading the recipe on Dogs First (http://www.dogsfirst.ie/preparing-a-dogs-dinner/) and now I'm getting runny poos from both of them. They haven't had more than a couple of tablespoons at dinner and breakfast - mostly carrot and spud with a few green beans - but it doesn't seem to be agreeing with them (and I have a weeks worth of the recipe in the freezer).

There seem to be quite varied opinions on whether dogs actually need veg and I'm just wondering what other raw feeders on Boards do. Do you include veg and spud in your dog's diet or just stick to meat? Is there any major nutritional benefit to including the veg? Should I persevere with the veg (since I have a freezer full of it) or go back to meat only?

tk123

Some people say there's no need/point but I feed my guy veg in his - I usually put in carrots, spuds, green beans and apples. We eat veg ourselves because it's full of vitamins so it made sense to me to add it to his food and he loves veg anyways. Normally he has minced chicken legs and veg but I make up portions of the veg mix for when he has a treat meal - he takes eg the ribs out and drops them on the ground and eats the veg first lol!!

You might need to give them a few days to get used to the (slight) change in the diet? Adding the veg will possibly save you money in the long run depending on how much you're paying for the meat? I can feed my guy for a month for approx €20

TooManyDogs

The do need vegetable matter of some sort, in the wild they would eat the stomach lining of the animal. There's debate whether they would shake out the stomach contents first or not but there is a significant amount to digested matter on the stomach lining. My lot love the veggies and eat the grass more if I don't include their veggie gloop in their dinner

If your lads aren't responding to the veggies well you could always try green tripe, which is essentially unwashed stomach lining so will have digested grasses there. Make sure it is green tripe though rather than white tripe, white is washed and bleached and of no nutritional benefit at all.

Cussypat1974

You could try butternut squash as a veg. It is the closest thing I can find to pumpkin which is known to help with runny poohs.

Graces7

As others here, our dogs get raw and cooked. Raw chicken, usually necks as we get them at E4 for 10 k, in the morning, then a cooked meal last thing, which is chicken and vegetables from the slow cooker with brown bread. Works well. One eats grass and the other eats nettles.

transit260

anyone else interested in going down that road google''THE BARF DIET''.great info on your animals health and well being.

bluecherry74

Thanks for all the replies! Poos were still runny this morning so I'm going to reduce the amount of veg for a few days and only give it to them at one meal a day. My gut feeling is that they need it, plus I need to get the cost of feeding them down a bit.

tk123 wrote: »

I can feed my guy for a month for approx €20

Wow... that's impressive. A weeks worth just cost me €22 for 2 dogs (English setters). Mind you, one of them is still growing and is getting almost double what the adult is getting. What are you paying for chicken legs? The cheapest I can find is Aldi at €2.00 for 800g (4-5 legs, depending on size).

TooManyDogs wrote: »

If your lads aren't responding to the veggies well you could always try green tripe, which is essentially unwashed stomach lining so will have digested grasses there. Make sure it is green tripe though rather than white tripe, white is washed and bleached and of no nutritional benefit at all.

Thanks - I'll have to see if my butcher has that or can order it.

Cussypat1974 wrote: »

You could try butternut squash as a veg. It is the closest thing I can find to pumpkin which is known to help with runny poohs.

I do remember reading that about pumpkin! I'll buy a butternut squash and see how they get on with that. Thanks for the tip.

tk123

bluecherry74 wrote: »

Wow... that's impressive. A weeks worth just cost me €22 for 2 dogs (English setters). Mind you, one of them is still growing and is getting almost double what the adult is getting. What are you paying for chicken legs? The cheapest I can find is Aldi at €2.00 for 800g (4-5 legs, depending on size).

I get 5 legs for €2.99 in a butchers up the road - the packs are always at least 1.5kg.

Graces7

tk123 wrote: »

I get 5 legs for €2.99 in a butchers up the road - the packs are always at least 1.5kg.

We can get 10 of chicken legs for E10 ie over 30 legs; see if there is a chicken "factory" nearby which is where we get ours. I tend to get the necks which are less than half that cost and add legs and wings and for the cats as well, when chickens are on offer so we get the white meat off that for ourselves.

Until they dropped the pet food subsidy on the legs, they were only E6 for 10k

Bullseye1

My dog loves carrots so she gets one with every meal.

cyndiann

Dogs have absolutely no nutritional requirement for any vegetables or fruit. Please remember that they are carnivores while we are omnivores so they don't need what we need in our diets. Matter of fact, many times those vegetables can be a source of itching and allergies.

The enzymes needed to actually digest vegetables don't exist in a dog's digestive system so they get no nutrition at all from eating them. What I'm telling you is based on real science and as you've found out, it upsets their tummies so please stop and go back to what you were doing originally. I've been feeding raw for 10 years now and went through all sorts of trials on different foods so I speak from experience.

bluecherry74

Graces7 wrote: »

We can get 10 of chicken legs for E10 ie over 30 legs; see if there is a chicken "factory" nearby which is where we get ours.

That's a fantastic price... I must find out if there are any factories or chicken processors around here. Would love to get my hands on some chicken backs and necks. I'm also going to ask my butcher if he'll give me a discount if I buy say 30 legs at a time. His regular price is slightly higher than Aldi but I'd obviously much rather give my business to a "proper" butcher. Sadly, there are far too few left.

bluecherry74

cyndiann wrote: »

Dogs have absolutely no nutritional requirement for any vegetables or fruit. Please remember that they are carnivores while we are omnivores so they don't need what we need in our diets. Matter of fact, many times those vegetables can be a source of itching and allergies.

The enzymes needed to actually digest vegetables don't exist in a dog's digestive system so they get no nutrition at all from eating them. What I'm telling you is based on real science and as you've found out, it upsets their tummies so please stop and go back to what you were doing originally. I've been feeding raw for 10 years now and went through all sorts of trials on different foods so I speak from experience.

Thanks cyndiann. I've read so many opinions on whether or not dogs need veg and both sides seem to have happy, healthy dogs. My gut feeling has always been to include veg, although this could just be from years of hearing how beneficial they are to us humans. I'm still feeding my dogs very tiny amounts of veg and they do seem to be returning to normal, so I may stick with it. I'm gonna keep reading up on raw feeding though - and I'm totally open to hearing any advice and opinions on here!

TooManyDogs

bluecherry74 wrote: »

I've read so many opinions on whether or not dogs need veg and both sides seem to have happy, healthy dogs.

That's the thing, it's like a religious debate with science to back up both sides. They do absorb nutrients and vitamens from the digested matter found in the stomach lining and will eat the stomach including contents of small animals, they'll shake out the contents of big animals but eat the lining. Most dogs I know treat horse/rabbit/sheep poo like sweeties so there obviously is a eveloutionary benefit to them to eat digested veggies.

The key thing is digested though, as Cyndiann pointed out they don't have the enzymes to digest whole uncooked vegetables so if you're going to feed veggies make sure they're broken down, I cook starchy veggies and then blend and freeze the lot and that will break down the cellulose well. Both sides of the debate agree that green tripe is a fairly important part of raw feeding but green tripe contains a huge amount of digested vegetable matter.

Vince32

I don't feed vegetables personally, I've never seen dog eating a carrot or turnip in the wild, so I don't think there is any need to feed them the home.

My dog gets 100% raw food, and is perfectly fine. They will get all they need from the bones, bone marrow and meat, I know some people who feed veggies and their dogs are fine too. But if your unsure about it, run a google search on what veggies your dog can & cannot eat, some breeds will be ok with them others not so much.

My girl gets boneless meat in the morning, and boned meat in the evening and I never have a problem with her.

I knew I could find it again, this list came from a website called - http://www.pethealth...7805:Topic:1935

I think we all know at this point that Raw meats are infact a lot better for your dog, as long as it's human grade.

Anyways, here it is, I would welcome any additions / alterations,to the list before I compile everything into one worksheet, because this data was compiled in 2008 by "some person" it is 4 years old, and everything contained within should be considered outdated, and independently researched before choosing to feed or not to feed these items, just to be safe !

<snip>

hope this answers your question.

Vince

ISDW

My lot love raw carrots as well, but the evidence coming out the other end definitely suggests they get no nutritional value from them. The carrot comes out undigested. If you're feeding veg, definitely puree it, to replicate the teeth crushing up any vegetable matter by a herbivore that would end up in its stomach, that a wild dog would then eat.

tk123

Vince32 wrote: »

I don't feed vegetables personally, I've never seen dog eating a carrot or turnip in the wild, so I don't think there is any need to feed them the home.

I'll have to disagree with you there - my dog ate banana skins out of a bin this morning in the dunes!! :mad::rolleyes::pac:

TooManyDogs

Dogs are able to and do absorb nutrients from pre-digested vegetables, NOT whole vegetables. Dogs have been eating pre-digested green matter for thousands of years in the form of stomach lining. There's an astonishing amount of green matter in a stomach lining.

Here's some benefits of veggies

Broccoli - vitamin C, beta carotene, folic acid, calcium and fiber.
Spinach - fiber, calcium, potassium and vitamins A, B6 and K
Celery - calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium and iron, as well as vitamins A, B, C
Carrot - vitamins B, C, D, E, K, riboflavin, niacin, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium, and iron


It's a religious debate, and I'd say we'll never come to any agreement

tk123 wrote: »

I'll have to disagree with you there - my dog ate banana skins out of a bin this morning in the dunes!!

Mine dig up my potatoes to eat them and one dog eats bell peppers off the plant so now my veggie patch is fenced off so we can actually eat the veggies!

ISDW

My lot go blackberry picking by themselves

Ayla

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Here's some benefits of veggies

Broccoli - vitamin C, beta carotene, folic acid, calcium and fiber.
Spinach - fiber, calcium, potassium and vitamins A, B6 and K
Celery - calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium and iron, as well as vitamins A, B, C
Carrot - vitamins B, C, D, E, K, riboflavin, niacin, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, sodium, and iron

A question: in order to get veggies to a digestible state, how cooked do they need to be? Boiled thoroughly until soft & mashable? Or is an al dente blanch ok? How about roasted?

I've heard that spinach is ok w/ a quick blanch (as long as it's wilted it's digestible), but what about carrots/broccoli/spuds etc? And you can't really cook celery (can you?) so is that ok to give pure raw? Peppers? Tomatoes?

Ugh, so much to take in. (sorry!) :cool:

TooManyDogs

Most of my veggies I leave raw but chop up and then blend them. I will cook starchy veggies like carrots, potatoes and parsnips, then blend them too. Starchy veggies need to be broken up a bit more for them to be digestable for the dogs. Then I freeze the lot into containers and take a container out every couple of days.

The blending and freezing should be sufficient to break down the cellulose in most of vegetables and cooking, blending and freezing should be ok for starchy veggies. It's what works for my lot anyway

bluecherry74

Vince32 wrote: »

I knew I could find it again, this list came from a website called - http://www.pethealth...7805:Topic:1935

Thanks Vince, I knew most of the things on that list were to be avoided; didn't know liver could be toxic if fed too much though! Mine only get a small bit once a week or so.

bluecherry74

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Mine dig up my potatoes to eat them and one dog eats bell peppers off the plant so now my veggie patch is fenced off so we can actually eat the veggies!

I tried starting a compost heap last year, but had to abandon it because this kept happening:

DogsFirst

bluecherry74 wrote: »

I've been raw feeding my 2 dogs for a few weeks now and have seen a massive improvement in their health - their poos are perfect (if you know what I mean! ) and one of them who had a very dry coat is starting to get a lovely shine.

They've been getting mainly chicken legs, mince beef, heart and eggs with salmon oil and the odd mackerel. This weekend I decided to introduce some cooked veg after reading the recipe on Dogs First (http://www.dogsfirst.ie/preparing-a-dogs-dinner/) and now I'm getting runny poos from both of them. They haven't had more than a couple of tablespoons at dinner and breakfast - mostly carrot and spud with a few green beans - but it doesn't seem to be agreeing with them (and I have a weeks worth of the recipe in the freezer).

There seem to be quite varied opinions on whether dogs actually need veg and I'm just wondering what other raw feeders on Boards do. Do you include veg and spud in your dog's diet or just stick to meat? Is there any major nutritional benefit to including the veg? Should I persevere with the veg (since I have a freezer full of it) or go back to meat only?

Hey BC!

Sorry to hear about your trouble! I definitely feel responsible for that one! But runny poos can happen with new the introduction of new foods, definitely, veg or meat or whatever.

If the dog has never encountered the protein before (whilst in the womb, through mothers milk or in the first 6 weeks of life) their introduction down the line can cause brief episodes in the gut. In short the gut tissue is saying "ehh what the bloody hell is this Frank? I'm not sure boss, lets get rid of it just in case, there seems to be a good bit of it around.....". This is why its best to get it in to pregnant mothers / young pups so their systems tag it as safe (it's a natural protection to stop dogs eating the wrong stuff when older).

Also veg has fibre in it. Fibre bulks the stool with water (hence great for constipation). This could be a factor also.

Best advice, if your dog is having an issue, best start off with a little spud (highly digestible) on its own with the food. Always introduce one food at a time so if there's an episode, you can point the finger (I would always re-challenge just in case) then move on to sweet spud, then maybe some mushed up carrot, then some cooked peas, then maybe green beans, all the time moving to bigger, harder veg. Slowly slowly catchy monkey.

It's great that you're not put off, lots of people launch into raw feeding, get a bit of sick and baulk back to the commercial for safety!

If for some reason they can't hold their veg (quite rare) meat and spud / brown rice is fine but ideally include a little multi vitamin each day, just to keep those levels up.

Cherry Blossom

DogsFirst, you have already been told that you need permission for a right of reply anytime your site is mentioned, if this happens again your out of here.

Vince32 - Pleeease stop commiting copyright infringement on this forum!!

Cussypat1974

Cyndiann, can you give any peer reviewed scientific refereces to the fact that dogs do not have the enzymes for digesting veggies? I am not trying to be awkward, just curious as I have never heard this before and have an ex vegetarian dog who has never been sick a day in her life, so am wondering how she survived the first four years or so? if she was unable to digest any of those veggies? see my point? I am totally pro raw feeding btw! It is by far the most natural diet for a dog but not that easly to replicate domestically.

As for cost.... hojnestly people! have you no idea how much good meat is thrown in bins each evening??? Ask at your local butcher/supermarket/deli/corner shop and make friends with the man/woman and get free dog stuff! apart from my ill dog, I feed the other three practically for free from butcher bags! silly people buying meat when buckets are thrown in skips which are perfectly healthy!

I got about ten turkeys last christmas eve...... 3 are still in freezer!
for ZERO euros, and i am a bloody vegan! I had a house full of giblets and the 36 cats at the time were falling around they were soo bloody stuffed! the butcher had to get his lads and my bf to help carry the box of turkey to the car. make friends with the guy who controlls the flesh folks!
Not many vegans spent their christmas eve up to their elbows in turkey blood eh?

bluecherry74

Just wanted to post an update - the dogs seem to have adjusted to the veg just fine and everything is back to normal. As a few people pointed out, I should have started them on it more slowly. But boy, do they love their veg! It's the first thing they lick out of their bowls. I replaced the green beans with butternut squash this week which went down even better, apart for their poo being a rather odd shade of orange!

Cussypat1974

whoops forgpt to warn you about the colour! glad it is going well though. my Kara wasn't getting enough veg last week, obviously, as she ate a bale of grass and did green poohs! she usually has raw carrots as chew toys you see but hasn't recently as I forgot to buy them! raw carrots are GREAT chew toys btw, great for teeth and most dogs love them.

Callaghan24

Hi my name is Steven, I'm new to boards and trying to get some information on raw feeding for my 2 year old rotte, was worndering were u get your meat for €20 and what kind of food would u feed on a daily basis, would chicken legs do as a main meal with some Organ meat, I live in cork any help would be great thanks.

paultf

Check http://www.dogsfirst.ie/

Wibbs

Cussypat1974 wrote: »

Cyndiann, can you give any peer reviewed scientific refereces to the fact that dogs do not have the enzymes for digesting veggies?

As carnivores they have a different digestive system to omnivores like us. Different teeth and jaws, different saliva makeup, much stronger stomach acid and shorter guts. Take one example of the enzyme amalase. That protein can't work at PH's much above above that found in the stomach of humans and can't work at all in dogs. Sure a dog might survive on a purely veggie diet, but it's defo a case of bashing a square peg into a round hole.

Cooked veggies make sense as they do in many cases for us as cooking predigests in a way the dog's systems can't. I'd also be of the opinion that lightly cooked meat(not bones) may be better for younger dogs. One thing the raw foodists miss while referencing "what dogs eat in the wild" is that young wolves/coyotes/dingos eat regurgitated meat from the adults. This is food already rendered into smaller chunks by adult teeth and "cooked" in very strong stomach acid. Young wolves would rarely enough eat "raw". Even around fresh kills they'll lick the adults muzzles to trigger regurgitation.

bluecherry74

Callaghan24 wrote: »

Hi my name is Steven, I'm new to boards and trying to get some information on raw feeding for my 2 year old rotte, was worndering were u get your meat for €20 and what kind of food would u feed on a daily basis, would chicken legs do as a main meal with some Organ meat, I live in cork any help would be great thanks.

I have two English Setters and spend between €20 and €25 a week on their food, which is roughly what it was costing me to feed them a good quality dry food.

Chicken legs make up the main part of their meals - the cheapest I can find them is in Aldi where they're 4 for €2. Breakfast and dinner is roughly 2/3 chicken to 1/3 cooked potato and veg. A couple of times a week they get raw liver, kidneys and mackerel, plus the odd raw egg. I usually give them a "treat meal" once a week too - lap of lamb is quite cheap and they love it.

Another poster linked to dogsfirst.ie and it's a fantastic resource, definitely check it out. It will tell you how much to feed your rottie based on his weight and activity levels and gives you a fair idea of what foods you should be including in his diet.

DogsFirst

cyndiann wrote: »

Dogs have absolutely no nutritional requirement for any vegetables or fruit. Please remember that they are carnivores while we are omnivores so they don't need what we need in our diets. Matter of fact, many times those vegetables can be a source of itching and allergies.

The enzymes needed to actually digest vegetables don't exist in a dog's digestive system so they get no nutrition at all from eating them. What I'm telling you is based on real science and as you've found out, it upsets their tummies so please stop and go back to what you were doing originally. I've been feeding raw for 10 years now and went through all sorts of trials on different foods so I speak from experience.

Totally agreed dogs are carnivores have no use for veg. But they do take a little fruit here and there (antioxidants for example, not in meat) but never heard of vegetables to cause allergies as such (well maybe a dog that has been sensitised to the weird stuff they put in dry food, but not fresh veggies from the offset). New foods can and do cause dietary upset if not introduced slowly and too much plant fibre bulks the stool with water which will cause sloppy stool issues, but neither are an allergic response requiring immune action.

The only reason I'd throw in a few veggies is to "cover bases" so to speak. I'm pretty lazy and don't get a whole mix of meat as often as I should. Cuts of meat like chicken / beef / rabbit etc are great but your little carnivore needs the goodness of pancreas, eyes, brains, adrenal glands, thyroid, that are rarely offered by all meat feeders unless feeding whole rodents, rabbits and birds, which is rare. These tiny bits cannot be totally replaced by a small amount of cooked veg but they certainly help with vitamins, and rarer minerals like selenium and manganese etc, which is a boost for your dog. Yes dogs don't eat veggies but that's cuz they can't cook 'em. Dogs don't have the enzymes to break down veg, that's why you cook or puree the pants out of them. Once cooked and fibre destroyed, they're a perfectly acceptable food source for dogs with no documented route to allergy. But essential they are not. All whole animals, whiskers and all, is undoubtedly the best food for little carnivores.

I would stick in a bit of white food (carbs like spud or rice) pre-run / work / agility for an energy boost but again, it's not needed. Dogs can make their own glucose from protein, clever carnivores.