Iberworld A320 birdstrike EIDW

phonypony

Just some info, Iberworld 3506 landed safely at 11.20Z, met by fire crews, taxied under its own power.
It had ingested a bird into the number two engine on departure, as observed by another aircraft at the hold.
Two interesting things to note, EI521 from Paris to Dublin decided to divert to Belfast and refused an instruction to enter a hold, citing fuel concerns, they later inquired with Scottish control about any delays at Belfast, they must not have had much holding fuel.
Also the clearance to land for the Iberworld was given by the approach controller rather than tower, haven't observed that before at Dublin..

Names

phonypony wrote: »

Also the clearance to land for the Iberworld was given by the approach controller rather than tower, haven't observed that before at Dublin..

This is standard in this sort of situation, the aircraft was in a critical stage of flight, which was made even more critical with the loss of number 2 engine. The tower passes the landing clearance to the APP controller, who in turn passes it to the aircraft , it cuts out the need for the crew to change freq at such a critical time, thus reducing the workload for the crew and the chance of freq confusion etc, is gone. Standard practice in an emergency

phonypony

and another possible one on landing today, EI651 A320, currently being inspected. A lot of bird activity out at Dublin this week...

Blue Punto

This is what happens when you cut the grass by niallsaviation, on Flickr

BrianD

In this event is there a specified route for aircraft to return to Dublin. I know it will depend on what runway was used and where the incident occured during the flight. I noted that the ATC referenced the aircraft being "over the city centre" at some point. Most airports are adjacent to urban areas so just curious to know what scenarios are in place for Dublin.

Suits

BrianD wrote: »

In this event is there a specified route for aircraft to return to Dublin. I know it will depend on what runway was used and where the incident occured during the flight. I noted that the ATC referenced the aircraft being "over the city centre" at some point. Most airports are adjacent to urban areas so just curious to know what scenarios are in place for Dublin.

I think he asked him what his intentions were and he said they wanted a right turn. In engine failure on climb out scenarios ATC will let the pilot choose his action as he is best in the picture and able to access the situation on an ongoing basis. A lot pilots will Mayday and say "engine failure climbing straight ahead to x altitude runway heading, standby". That lets the controller know they have an issue and that they will advise them of what they plan to do when the situation is a little more under their control(emergency actions done,checklists run through etc). ATC will never force an action on a Mayday aircraft. I was personally surprised they went right toward the city and mountains and not left on to the "deader side" of the airport. Could have been to do with what side the engine failed on but I'm only guessing.

A320

Imagine getting a controller like this!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q

Suits

A320 wrote: »

Imagine getting a controller like this!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q

I may stand corrected but was this the one where a certain person went to pieces and there was a bit of unhappiness within the EI training structure over it?
Controller sounds to me as if he just wants to know what is happening. The pilot isnt giving too much info and MCO's airspace is a bit crowed by the sounds.

vicwatson

EI521 from Paris to Dublin decided to divert to Belfast and refused an instruction to enter a hold

Can a pilot refuse to do as told by ATC like this?

Suits

vicwatson wrote: »

Can a pilot refuse to do as told by ATC like this?

You cant do anything without clearance but you dont have to accept one if you dont want to!

vicwatson

Suits wrote: »

You cant do anything without clearance but you dont have to accept one if you dont want to!

So no punishment per se for Pilot or Airline?

Suits

vicwatson wrote: »

So no punishment per se for Pilot or Airline?

No. If a pilot feels a clearance is unsafe he does not have to take it. I assume these EI guys felt they would not have the fuel to hold safely and so went to Belfast. A lot of the time it is the pilot who dictates terms to the controller!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXqI824igA There's an example for you there!

I suspect Barcelona may have been fresh in their minds. Or that may have had no bearing at all!

vicwatson

Suits wrote: »

No. If a pilot feels a clearance is unsafe he does not have to take it. I assume these EI guys felt they would not have the fuel to hold safely and so went to Belfast. A lot of the time it is the pilot who dictates terms to the controller!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWXqI824igA There's an example for you there!

I suspect Barcelona may have been fresh in their minds. Or that may have had no bearing at all!

Poor passengers !:eek:

Bessarion

Suits wrote: »

I may stand corrected but was this the one where a certain person went to pieces and there was a bit of unhappiness within the EI training structure over it?
Controller sounds to me as if he just wants to know what is happening. The pilot isnt giving too much info and MCO's airspace is a bit crowed by the sounds.

Suits, the EI engine failure out of MCO had no-one going to pieces. it was calmly handled as per SOP's. The controller was ignoring the request from the crew to 'standby' as they were dealing with the situations and had no new info to give him. The aircraft was under control and level with no conflict with other traffic.

Suits

vicwatson wrote: »

Poor passengers !:eek:

I'd rather be in Belfast than take my chances in the Irish Sea(and then god forbid Larne:eek:)!:D Perhaps in the 70s I would have gone with the latter option but it's ok now I suppose!;)

Suits

Bessarion wrote: »

Suits, the EI engine failure out of MCO had no-one going to pieces. it was calmly handled as per SOP's. The controller was ignoring the request from the crew to 'standby' as they were dealing with the situations and had no new info to give him. The aircraft was under control and level with no conflict with other traffic.

There was an incident when an EI pilot froze, I was wondering if this was it thats all. If it isnt that is fine. The crew didnt fully make clear their intentions that is why the controller was asking them.

globemaster1986

I see nothing wrong with the mayday call. Actually this is the best way to make a mayday call. By saying "Mayday Mayday Mayday, Shamrock 12G, engine failure, climbing straight ahead. Standby." he gives the controller more than enough information.

He has declared a mayday, advised of an engine failure and his intentions and asked the controller to "Standby", ie wait untill I contact you further. The fact the controller failed to understand the meaning of "standby" is another matter. You will notice how the controller was advised the "Standby" numerous times but kept calling. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate: meaning, first job maintain control of the A/C, complete memory items/emergency procedures, second job Navigate (already advised ATC climbing straight ahead) and of least concern immediately in such a situation, Communicate. So speaking to ATC was not exactly their top priority when dealing with the engine failure. An example of poor ATC IMHO

vicwatson

Suits wrote: »

I'd rather be in Belfast than take my chances in the Irish Sea(and then god forbid Larne:eek:)!:D Perhaps in the 70s I would have gone with the latter option but it's ok now I suppose!;)

Maybe they should have had enough fuel aboard for such an eventuality !

Suits

vicwatson wrote: »

Maybe they should have had enough fuel aboard for such an eventuality !

Fuel is money

vicwatson

Suits wrote: »

Fuel is money

So are passengers

Suits

vicwatson wrote: »

So are passengers

Who cares about passengers??

cuterob

is that an american captain on the EI flight?

vicwatson

Suits wrote: »

Who cares about passengers??

I'd agree with you had it been Ryanair !!

Bearcat

Suits wrote: »

There was an incident when an EI pilot froze, I was wondering if this was it thats all. If it isnt that is fine. The crew didnt fully make clear their intentions that is why the controller was asking them.

You can't come on to a forum saying pilots of certain airlines froze in an incident without elaborating.......that's a vicious allegation without proof attached.

Suits

Bearcat wrote: »

You can't come on to a forum saying pilots of certain airlines froze in an incident without elaborating.......that's a vicious allegation without proof attached.

Posting a name location etc would be worse I think. I dont know who it was or when it happened.....it's not a vicious allegation, it was a question. Cool the jets.

Bearcat

Jets are cool, but you said a certain Aer Lingus pilot froze in an incident.

That is a scurrilous remark to say without backing it up. All yack and no shack....

A320

globemaster1986 wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with the mayday call. Actually this is the best way to make a mayday call. By saying "Mayday Mayday Mayday, Shamrock 12G, engine failure, climbing straight ahead. Standby." he gives the controller more than enough information.

He has declared a mayday, advised of an engine failure and his intentions and asked the controller to "Standby", ie wait untill I contact you further. The fact the controller failed to understand the meaning of "standby" is another matter. You will notice how the controller was advised the "Standby" numerous times but kept calling. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate: meaning, first job maintain control of the A/C, complete memory items/emergency procedures, second job Navigate (already advised ATC climbing straight ahead) and of least concern immediately in such a situation, Communicate. So speaking to ATC was not exactly their top priority when dealing with the engine failure. An example of poor ATC IMHO

Exactly

Suits,you are waffling again,who did ya hear it off this time????

Suits

Bearcat wrote: »

Jets are cool, but you said a certain Aer Lingus pilot froze in an incident.

That is a scurrilous remark to say without backing it up. All yack and no shack....

If I said it was John X on the midday flight from London that would be a scurrilous remark. I just said that I was told it happened.

Suits

A320 wrote: »

Exactly

Suits,you are waffling again,who did ya hear it off this time????

If you are going to name me specifically I want you to provide clear proof that I am wrong, otherwise dont libel me.

I base what I say on what I'm told. Told my people I feel are reputable enough to trust. If I am incorrect I will hold my hands up and apologise no problem. I take issue with how people tend to disagree with insults here and not counter claim.

castie

Suits wrote: »

If you are going to name me specifically I want you to provide clear proof that I am wrong, otherwise dont libel me.

I base what I say on what I'm told. Told my people I feel are reputable enough to trust. If I am incorrect I will hold my hands up and apologise no problem. I take issue with how people tend to disagree with insults here and not counter claim.

You have nothing to back up your statement.
Hence he asked are you waffling....

libel....give me a break..

Bessarion

Suits wrote: »

I may stand corrected but was this the one where a certain person went to pieces and there was a bit of unhappiness within the ..... training structure over it?...........

I have already corrected your mistake on this incident.
You then continue to denigrate the rep of an Irish airline, all of which (happily) have very highly regarded safety standards.

Anyone else feel these posts are against A&A rules?

Dogwatch

Information is inaccurate

Suits

Bessarion wrote: »

I have already corrected your mistake on this incident.
You then continue to denigrate the rep of an Irish airline, all of which (happily) have very highly regarded safety standards.

Not permitted under boards.ie A&A forum rules.

Anyone else want to report these posts?

On reflection I hold my hands up and perhaps should not have said it. However it is a bit over the top to suggest I am attacking Aer Lingus. Many airlines have had pilots who dont perform under pressure, nobody suggests it's the airline's fault. It's just a human reaction to stress. An FO straight off line training may freeze due to inexperiance etc, and nobody can say they wouldnt do the same.
I apologise to anyone who took offence and to any Aer Lingus staff who feel "denigrated"

Hence he asked are you waffling....

asked did he?:rolleyes:

LeftBase

Bessarion wrote: »

I have already corrected your mistake on this incident.
You then continue to denigrate the rep of an Irish airline, all of which (happily) have very highly regarded safety standards.

Not permitted under boards.ie A&A forum rules.

Anyone else want to report these posts?

Having recently joined and recently read the rules I believe a statement like that is not permitted either....

sparrowcar

Lads back on topic and all that... :rolleyes:

The YouTube link for the EI MCO incident wont play on ipad for me so found it on liveATC if anyone is interested.

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/ei-120-engine-failure-at-kmco/?action=dlattach;attach=3792

Bearcat

Yeap, back on topic.....did IB have to shut down the engine ? I'm being too lazy to read back.

I absolutely hate when they cut the grass in peak summer (I know the grass grows).......it's a field day( sorry for pun) for the birdies with a feast of worms and other delicious feasts for the birds to gorge on. Do the birds give a toss with shot gun noises? Nope they move about a 100m and settled down again. I think it is an accident awaiting to happen especially if you injest into both engines a clatter of rooks. Off runway 10 Malahide estuary here we come.

I suppose it's an evil necessity to cut the grass but it certainly exponentially increases the threat levels to aircraft safety with the influx of birds.

urajoke

Bearcat wrote: »

Yeap, back on topic.....did IB have to shut down the engine ? I'm being too lazy to read back.

I absolutely hate when they cut the grass in peak summer (I know the grass grows).......it's a field day( sorry for pun) for the birdies with a feast of worms and other delicious feasts for the birds to gorge on. Do the birds give a toss with shot gun noises? Nope they move about a 100m and settled down again. I think it is an accident awaiting to happen especially if you injest into both engines a clatter of rooks. Off runway 10 Malahide estuary here we come.

I suppose it's an evil necessity to cut the grass but it certainly exponentially increases the threat levels to aircraft safety with the influx of birds.

For clarity IB=Iberia and 4O or IBW=Iberworld now Orbest Orizonia Airlines.

Yes they shut down the engine due to indications of a possible fire, The DAA say they have to cut the grass right back every 4-5 years why I don't know but they do.

LeftBase

Could they not cut the grass but not scalp it? Like say it's a foot high,cut it down to 1/4 foot,that should still keep the birds away!

I remember hearing stories of Soviet airbases where they used to litter dead birds around so as to show an other birds what they would be in for, was also mention of them using landmines too! Crazy Ruzkis!:cool:

andy_g

Right I have said it before on other posts please hit the report button to report a post.

Airline bashing in anyway will not be tollorated anymore off topicness you will be banned im not going to give warnings.

castie

Might be a really really stupid question.

Why is there grass there at all...
I know nearly all airports have grass but if theres incidents like then get rid of the grass???

Bearcat

Couldn't agree more. There's enough threats out there with out making more.

LeftBase

castie wrote: »

Might be a really really stupid question.

Why is there grass there at all...
I know nearly all airports have grass but if theres incidents like then get rid of the grass???

Is one of the purposes of the grass not to aid drainage of the runway and provide a little better stopping power for over runs etc?