Dog with a rabbit problem....

dmg10

I'm guessing some of you won't find this a problem but for me it is...

I've a 20month old springer/ collie cross I'm training for searchwork. Last summer she discovered her prey drive and we went through a few months of up and down training where she would get distracted by rabbit scent easily. In recent months she's consistently been doing well to the point where I thought she'd 'grown up' and clicked into the work she's supposed to be doing. Until recently that is...Last week, she went into the person hiding, looked at them, looked at me standing way off, and then turned tail and went hunting. Some of it is very often down to the person I'm using as my training body at the time, and I switch people according to how she's going at the time in her training. But this was a blatant decision that rabbits were FAR more fun today. And she has no recall whatsoever when on the scent. Completely oblivious to me until she's done and comes back all happy with herself. Unfortunately, this won't be acceptable. I really though we'd broken through it as she was doing great.

I have however realised that it's very much rabbit season so the old tempations are back again, almsot like it might be a seasonal thing for her! I tried rabbit breaking scent for a few weeks, no use. I'm now squirting it up the nose but don't think that'll have any effect and maybe its wrong to do it? Anyone any tips on how to stop her chasing rabbits? I reckon she could be pretty headstrong, so have already made the decision that she won't make it for landsearch because of this hunt drive (although will be trying her for the boats). But any tips to give it one last ditch effort would be appreciated.

The other question, I've recently gotten another pup to train, collie/retriever, how do I make sure she doesn't develop that same hunt drive for rabbits as the other one, just from watching her. Is it best to always separate them walking etc?

Many thanks!

PS. Reason I'm posting this here rather than the animal/pets forum is because someone here might understand hunting dogs rather than give the general advice of work on recall in areas of least distraction etc etc. Doesn't work, been there, done that. She's A1 on the beach and in other areas where rabbits don't grab her attention, but bring them into the mix, forget it....

Spunk84

dmg10 wrote: »

I'm guessing some of you won't find this a problem but for me it is...

I've a 20month old springer/ collie cross I'm training for searchwork. Last summer she discovered her prey drive and we went through a few months of up and down training where she would get distracted by rabbit scent easily. In recent months she's consistently been doing well to the point where I thought she'd 'grown up' and clicked into the work she's supposed to be doing. Until recently that is...Last week, she went into the person hiding, looked at them, looked at me standing way off, and then turned tail and went hunting. Some of it is very often down to the person I'm using as my training body at the time, and I switch people according to how she's going at the time in her training. But this was a blatant decision that rabbits were FAR more fun today. And she has no recall whatsoever when on the scent. Completely oblivious to me until she's done and comes back all happy with herself. Unfortunately, this won't be acceptable. I really though we'd broken through it as she was doing great.

I have however realised that it's very much rabbit season so the old tempations are back again, almsot like it might be a seasonal thing for her! I tried rabbit breaking scent for a few weeks, no use. I'm now squirting it up the nose but don't think that'll have any effect and maybe its wrong to do it? Anyone any tips on how to stop her chasing rabbits? I reckon she could be pretty headstrong, so have already made the decision that she won't make it for landsearch because of this hunt drive (although will be trying her for the boats). But any tips to give it one last ditch effort would be appreciated.

The other question, I've recently gotten another pup to train, collie/retriever, how do I make sure she doesn't develop that same hunt drive for rabbits as the other one, just from watching her. Is it best to always separate them walking etc?

Many thanks!

PS. Reason I'm posting this here rather than the animal/pets forum is because someone here might understand hunting dogs rather than give the general advice of work on recall in areas of least distraction etc etc. Doesn't work, been there, done that. She's A1 on the beach and in other areas where rabbits don't grab her attention, but bring them into the mix, forget it....

Take her out of the fields and bring her back to basics . She's only doing Wat she is bred to do .

I won't upset people yet but I'll throw in using the electronic collar when everybody has suggested using back to basics,long lead and other methods lol

dmg10

Spunk84 wrote: »

Take her out of the fields and bring her back to basics . She's only doing Wat she is bred to do .

I won't upset people yet but I'll throw in using the electronic collar when everybody has suggested using back to basics,long lead and other methods lol

The thought has crossed my mind but I'm half afraid to try it as it could ruin her altogether. I know many people think they're cruel but to be honest, where there's a risk of a dog running out on the road oblivious to everything around them because they're in the 'zone', then maybe they have their uses, correctly applied and not abused. If it's something similar or less than falling against an electric fence in a wet wetsuit then I know what it feels like....There's no knowing if it'll work or not and I have heard it could ruin a dog, or it could go the other way. Someone has said she might be too headstrong even for one of them. It will be a last resort though if I do go down that route, very reluctant to unless there's a good chance of success.

I am planning on getting a 50-100ft line out this weekend and bringing her back to where we had issues in our last training session. Do think it's a waste of effort though.

TriggerPL

Spunk84 wrote: »

Take her out of the fields and bring her back to basics . She's only doing Wat she is bred to do .

I won't upset people yet but I'll throw in using the electronic collar when everybody has suggested using back to basics,long lead and other methods lol

afraid spunk is right electric collar is what your down to , but dont put it on and shock the **** out of her , bring her to the areas with rabbits and if she breaks for rabbits , try and stop her and if she doest stop zap her once , grab her tell her no and put her back in the van .

only down fall to the collar is she might get use to it , and no when she has it on or not , meaning you might have to put it on her all the time weather using it or not .

dicky82

i think you could solve the problem without the e-collar. do you have a her trained to hup and recall and she ignores it when on scent or do you not have the recall on her at all? the person who thought me about dogs maintains that the hup is the number one command and followed closely by the recall. once you can hup the dog you can get the rest to follow. of corse some dog's are a bit less obliging than others.

Hunterjohnb

Hello DMG,refresh training on recall,making sure there is no hesitation before you move on.When out in the field use a long lead until she gets the message.When she disobeys chastise immediately where possible.Introduce the command "leave" for anything you do not want the dog to do. hope this helps.:)

dmg10

dicky82 wrote: »

i think you could solve the problem without the e-collar. do you have a her trained to hup and recall and she ignores it when on scent or do you not have the recall on her at all? the person who thought me about dogs maintains that the hup is the number one command and followed closely by the recall. once you can hup the dog you can get the rest to follow. of corse some dog's are a bit less obliging than others.

By hup, you mean to sit/down/stop on command mid stride/ at a distance kind of thing? No, we've been starting to work on that one but haven't made much progress yet. Her recall is pretty much spot on in any other situation except for when on rabbit scent when it appears her ears just go into pure shutdown, she's completely oblivious to anything else except for what she's on. I won't be making the same mistake with the new pup though, the 'stop' (hup?) will be taught very early. I do put a good bit of the blame on myself on not doing more training in those kind of distraction areas when younger. Although, she will sit/stay/come at a good distance in a horse arena full of other dogs but again, put rabbits in the mix....I think she might be in the less obliging bracket...

I also got her quite late in her puppyhood at 4 months and she'd had no obedience training done, was just let run with dogs. But at the time, I wasn't selecting her with the purpose of the work I'm training her for, whereas the new pup has been one of many evaluated. There's a huge difference between her and the new pup in that the new one is very much focused on the human and is much more eager to please the human which is why we're in the situation we are in as the other one doesn't care too much about the human if there's a rabbit hiding in the brambles nearby!

Hunterjohnb wrote: »

Hello DMG,refresh training on recall,making sure there is no hesitation before you move on.When out in the field use a long lead until she gets the message.When she disobeys chastise immediately where possible.Introduce the command "leave" for anything you do not want the dog to do. hope this helps.:)

Thanks HJB, going to go back to do this first as an attempt although my problem is, she'll behave perfectly on the long line, but take it off and she's gone again! She knows leave it but again, ears are in shutdown or she's just choosing to completely ignore me.

Thanks everyone for all the help, I'll keep ye posted as to how I get on. If none of the above tips work, she'll just go back to being a pure pet, but I still need to sort the behaviour as I can't be sitting in the woods waiting for her to finish! If anyone knows anyone in Cork who trains gundogs and might be willing to have a chat, you might pm me.

Spunk84

dmg10 wrote: »

dicky82 wrote: »

i think you could solve the problem without the e-collar. do you have a her trained to hup and recall and she ignores it when on scent or do you not have the recall on her at all? the person who thought me about dogs maintains that the hup is the number one command and followed closely by the recall. once you can hup the dog you can get the rest to follow. of corse some dog's are a bit less obliging than others.

By hup, you mean to sit/down/stop on command mid stride/ at a distance kind of thing? No, we've been starting to work on that one but haven't made much progress yet. Her recall is pretty much spot on in any other situation except for when on rabbit scent when it appears her ears just go into pure shutdown, she's completely oblivious to anything else except for what she's on. I won't be making the same mistake with the new pup though, the 'stop' (hup?) will be taught very early. I do put a good bit of the blame on myself on not doing more training in those kind of distraction areas when younger. Although, she will sit/stay/come at a good distance in a horse arena full of other dogs but again, put rabbits in the mix....I think she might be in the less obliging bracket...

I also got her quite late in her puppyhood at 4 months and she'd had no obedience training done, was just let run with dogs. But at the time, I wasn't selecting her with the purpose of the work I'm training her for, whereas the new pup has been one of many evaluated. There's a huge difference between her and the new pup in that the new one is very much focused on the human and is much more eager to please the human which is why we're in the situation we are in as the other one doesn't care too much about the human if there's a rabbit hiding in the brambles nearby!

Hunterjohnb wrote: »

Hello DMG,refresh training on recall,making sure there is no hesitation before you move on.When out in the field use a long lead until she gets the message.When she disobeys chastise immediately where possible.Introduce the command "leave" for anything you do not want the dog to do. hope this helps.:)

Thanks HJB, going to go back to do this first as an attempt although my problem is, she'll behave perfectly on the long line, but take it off and she's gone again! She knows leave it but again, ears are in shutdown or she's just choosing to completely ignore me.

Thanks everyone for all the help, I'll keep ye posted as to how I get on. If none of the above tips work, she'll just go back to being a pure pet, but I still need to sort the behaviour as I can't be sitting in the woods waiting for her to finish! If anyone knows anyone in Cork who trains gundogs and might be willing to have a chat, you might pm me.

I was thinking,now bare with me if you can get a few dead rabbits and trial their scent up a field and at the end of the scent have something that will detour them from proceeding . I was thinking like Vicks/black pepper or mase or something ( check with a vet if this is ok ) . Do this aload of times and it may stop him from following the scent

Same goes with a rabbit throw it for the dog and let it bring it back,then cover it in whatever and when the dog goes to get it then it will associate the rabbit with being horrible if u get me

dmg10

Spunk84 wrote: »

I was thinking,now bare with me if you can get a few dead rabbits and trial their scent up a field and at the end of the scent have something that will detour them from proceeding . I was thinking like Vicks/black pepper or mase or something ( check with a vet if this is ok ) . Do this aload of times and it may stop him from following the scent

Same goes with a rabbit throw it for the dog and let it bring it back,then cover it in whatever and when the dog goes to get it then it will associate the rabbit with being horrible if u get me

I see where you're coming from on it. Someone else said to me about tying a dead rabbit skin to her collar and let her get completely fed up of it. Only problem is I'm not sure I could deal with my dog around the place with a dead rabbit attached to her...

The trailing idea sounds like an idea, will have to see if I can trace anyone who might have a dead rabbit or two.... :-)

dicky82

yes hup is the stop/sit/down command. we use hup because its sharp and quick.
as regards your pup not being trained at four months i wouldn't be too concerned as most lads don't start formal training until about six months.

ALL dogs want to please their master, the secret here is to make sure that your dog see's you as the master, this is not done by fear but by being firm clear and giving praise where praise is due. if the dog acts out be patient and remember that little victories are what you're after and then the pennies will start to drop.

how old is the dog? i'm very confident that you can still get the hup on the dog to the point where the rabbits won't be an issue.

dmg10

Just an update to those of you who offered your advice, much appreciated.

After a lot of inner debate as to the right way to proceed, a situation where her lead failed & she ran straight across a busy road (no road sense once her nose is on the ground) and failed to recall, well that clinched it.

I ordered the Sportdog Field Trainer 400S. Spent the first week+ reading up on it, tested it on myself to be sure I was happy with it(!), getting my head around how to work it, best way to set up sessions, and conditioning her to the collar so she doesn't realise what its real function is. Have to say the info that comes with the collar, training dvd and booklet is excellent and really helps you to form a logical plan.

We started with basic obedience to get the routine of it in, did recall in the front garden, then out on the estate road and then the real test came yesterday where we went to a nearby woods where she disappeared on me for 20mins chasing rabbits two weeks ago.

I kept her on the long line for a while doing recall exercise as we went along, then decided to let her off and see what happened. She broke once with the head down ready to go off, applied the collar correctly, immediate response with a positive attitude. Noticeable difference then with her hanging around a lot closer after that, looking back at me more checking my position, and coming back more to check-in. At one stage I noticed her response wasn't as good but she came back all the same and I realised the battery had died, but she had come back. Only problem I have with the collar is that the battery is only lasting 20mins on a full charge at the moment but sportdog are sending another one out under warranty. The key with the collar is finding the right level of stimulation for what she's doing and how distracted she is. I had to lower it right down in some cases and increase it for others, it is a fine balance between reaction and too much stimulation but with concentration and reading her right, I'm not so scared of using it now.

There's a quarry we use for training that's full of rabbits and always a problem, so that'll be the next training setup.

In the wrong hands and applied incorrectly without studying how to use them in a training exercise and allowing temper to rule, I can understand how these could be a bad device to be using that could easily ruin/ hurt a dog. As long as the reaction and results are positive, well, we'll see how we get on....

highduck

dmg10 wrote: »

Just an update to those of you who offered your advice, much appreciated.

After a lot of inner debate as to the right way to proceed, a situation where her lead failed & she ran straight across a busy road (no road sense once her nose is on the ground) and failed to recall, well that clinched it.

I ordered the Sportdog Field Trainer 400S. Spent the first week+ reading up on it, tested it on myself to be sure I was happy with it(!), getting my head around how to work it, best way to set up sessions, and conditioning her to the collar so she doesn't realise what its real function is. Have to say the info that comes with the collar, training dvd and booklet is excellent and really helps you to form a logical plan.

We started with basic obedience to get the routine of it in, did recall in the front garden, then out on the estate road and then the real test came yesterday where we went to a nearby woods where she disappeared on me for 20mins chasing rabbits two weeks ago.

I kept her on the long line for a while doing recall exercise as we went along, then decided to let her off and see what happened. She broke once with the head down ready to go off, applied the collar correctly, immediate response with a positive attitude. Noticeable difference then with her hanging around a lot closer after that, looking back at me more checking my position, and coming back more to check-in. At one stage I noticed her response wasn't as good but she came back all the same and I realised the battery had died, but she had come back. Only problem I have with the collar is that the battery is only lasting 20mins on a full charge at the moment but sportdog are sending another one out under warranty. The key with the collar is finding the right level of stimulation for what she's doing and how distracted she is. I had to lower it right down in some cases and increase it for others, it is a fine balance between reaction and too much stimulation but with concentration and reading her right, I'm not so scared of using it now.

There's a quarry we use for training that's full of rabbits and always a problem, so that'll be the next training setup.

In the wrong hands and applied incorrectly without studying how to use them in a training exercise and allowing temper to rule, I can understand how these could be a bad device to be using that could easily ruin/ hurt a dog. As long as the reaction and results are positive, well, we'll see how we get on....

I am not a fan of the electric collars but have used them and accept that they have their place if usef correctly.

Dogs learn by association and you dont want her to associate it with you otherwise you will havr to leave it on her all the time like the yanks.

You can also case harden a dog to a collar where their tolerance gets higher with time.

This is the way i would do it.(only my opinion).
Make up a collar the same size and weight as the e collar and leave it on the dog all the time.

When training take it off b4 the session and givr the dog a quick brush then put on the e collar.

Take the dog to a place teaming with rabbits early morning is best and scent is strongest.you are not doing anything in this session except let the dog chase and hunt.sounds mad.......but when the dog starts to hunt/chase where they can see the rabbit call the dog by name once as it is bolting after the rabbit,it wont stop,give it one long shock at the highest level immediatly after calling its name.if they keep chasing dont call the dog just hit it again and again until it stops chasing.as soon as they stop call them back to you and make a big fuss of them rubbing them and petting them.

The dog will associate the rabbit with the awful shock and you with reassurance and security.

Put the dog on lead and move to anothet field with rabbits and repeat.chase ,let them out 20-30 yards name ,if no stop full shock until they do stop then name and reassurance and praise on return.

I have used this method on two setters that were chasing hares.i only had to do it once on one dog and twice on the other.it turned them totally off hares because they associated them with the electric shock and pain.i hunted both dogs after for as long as i owned without any collar standard or electric and when they say or smelt a hare they totally ignored it.they learnt that once they ignoredhares that hares were no threat.

The setters still hunted like hell but ignored hares.

Important that at no stage that the dog associates the shock with you.

Good luck.

Highduck.

wwwboof

Quote; Anyone any tips on how to stop her chasing rabbits?

your dog needs to know who the boss is.

If you know anyone with ferrets you should try and go out with them. when they put the ferret down the hole stant back 5 yards or so with the dog on a lead [use a choke lead] and when the rabbit bolts if the dog goes to run in on it below the stop whistle, pull him back and say no but be firm with him you might need to give him a bit of a shake at the same time.

this teaches him patcience and it also lets him know that you dont want him chasing them.

only do 2 or 3 holes at a time.
you could try a collar but it would be a very last resort.

EPointer=Birdss

There is so much scare mongering going on as regards the use of collars.
OP I'm glad you took the time to learn how to use them as intended & was 100% confident the dog would get sorted by it. TBH I would of sorted your dog in 2/3 days with it & Spunk gave you the best advise from the off here.
The amount of bad press & close mindedness on here as regards the use of collars is comical. They are the first thing I would buy if training a dog from scratch. Since I started using them I have seen wild wild dogs reigned in to be fine dogs. Put it in the hand of an idiot & the results won't be good. Same type of guy will likely just use a stick & his boot anyway!!

dmg10

highduck wrote: »

Highduck.

Great advice Highduck many thanks. When I was reflecting back on how the first session went with it in the woods, I was trying to work out how to sort it quickly so as not to end up dependent on it as I in no way want to have to leave it on her at all. Thanks

dmg10

wwwboof wrote: »

Quote; Anyone any tips on how to stop her chasing rabbits?

your dog needs to know who the boss is.

If you know anyone with ferrets you should try and go out with them. when they put the ferret down the hole stant back 5 yards or so with the dog on a lead [use a choke lead] and when the rabbit bolts if the dog goes to run in on it below the stop whistle, pull him back and say no but be firm with him you might need to give him a bit of a shake at the same time.

this teaches him patcience and it also lets him know that you dont want him chasing them.

only do 2 or 3 holes at a time.
you could try a collar but it would be a very last resort.

Thanks wwboof, never considering getting someone with a ferret, a call has been made :-)

dmg10

EPointer=Birdss wrote: »

I would of sorted your dog in 2/3 days with it & Spunk gave you the best advise from the off here.

Where are you based EPointer? In case I fail miserably :-)