Experience in taking teams in GAA/ Soccer essential.

vamos!

I saw this at the bottom of a job ad today. It seems really strange to me that a school is so specific in their ad (job is not for a PE teacher). There is no mention of coaching in the ad, so I am assuming it is extracurricular. Has anyone seen ads like this before? Is it a good thing for a school to be so open about what they want or is it a bit strange?

UnLuckyAgain

vamos! wrote: »

I saw this at the bottom of a job ad today. It seems really strange to me that a school is so specific in their ad (job is not for a PE teacher). There is no mention of coaching in the ad, so I am assuming it is extracurricular. Has anyone seen ads like this before? Is it a good thing for a school to be so open about what they want or is it a bit strange?

Spotted this today myself too - slightly annoyed at it. I studied to be a teacher (not PE), not a coach! :P

electoralshock

Basically they are trying to save themselves some time. I would say applications for this job would be halved. Just having the right subjects and experience is not enough anymore!

linguist

Jobs for the boys!:) Frankly, I have no problem with it. Extracurricular work is at the core of what is good in the relationship between pupils and teachers in this country and is characteristic of a country in which amateur participation in sport and other activities is at the heart of communities.

We all know the colleagues who do little or no extracurricular activities whilst the rest of us always have something on. Maybe this will send out a message. My only concern is the possibility that it might be perceived that male applicants would be at an advantage but I really don't think this is necessarily the case.

vamos!

I don't have appropriate subjects for the job, so won't be applying but I still don't like the idea that it could become normal to request certain extracurricular activities. I wouldn't know where to start with a team, but have been heavily involved in extracurricular activities in every school I have worked in. Maybe it is a good thing, in that applicants know whether to bother or not.... I would start with enacting legislation to stop unqualifieds working before I worried about the teams though.

seavill

I would have no problem with this either. To me extra curricular is essential to the work of a school. Maybe this school has enough teachers to look after musicals, plays, debate etc. but are struggling for people to run GAA and soccer.

In the end of the day when it came down to them selecting a suitable candidate for the job, had they not said it they would have discounted people that did not have this anyway, so as someone said they are really just saving both your and their time in the end of the day.

byhookorbycrook

Common enough in primary to want someone to take the school GAA team/band/showjumping team and so on.

doc_17

I've seen plenty of ads where involvement in extra-curricular was specified as an advantage. And it should be really. The people who do the most moaning in our staff room are the ones who don't do anything!

Taking teams would be better use of the croke park hours anyway.

2011abc

Seems to me that there could be 'gender equity ' issues here ...sure there are die hard female ball game fans but Id imagine a significant majority of those with relevant experience are male .

solerina

doc_17 wrote: »

Taking teams would be better use of the croke park hours anyway.

Your right, it certainly would be, unfortunately unless they change the croke park hours rules it cant be...the hours must be whole staff together (god only knows why).

E.T.

solerina wrote: »

Your right, it certainly would be, unfortunately unless they change the croke park hours rules it cant be...the hours must be whole staff together (god only knows why).

It doesn't specify anywhere in the agreement that individual hours can't be counted. This is what the INTO had to say on it.

Q.5 A
"It is intended that the additional 36 hours can be used in a flexible manner to meet the identified needs of the school. Some of this time will be used on whole school activities such as staff meetings; other hours could used on activities affecting a group of staff such as the Special Education Team/infant teachers etc. and some of the hours may be counted on an individual basis e.g. assembly time supervision. "

http://www.into.ie/ROI/Downloads/QA_CrokePark_Jan2011.pdf

I don't know what the other unions had to say, but it's worth checking out.

doc_17

2011abc wrote: »

Seems to me that there could be 'gender equity ' issues here ...sure there are die hard female ball game fans but Id imagine a significant majority of those with relevant experience are male .

Is it an all boys/girls school?

To be honest if you were looking for gender equity you'd be stacking the odds in favour of the men so that there would be gender equity!

seavill

2011abc wrote: »

Seems to me that there could be 'gender equity ' issues here ...sure there are die hard female ball game fans but Id imagine a significant majority of those with relevant experience are male .

Surely you could argue the same for a job which has advertised for a teacher with experience in drama, musicals, debate etc. Speaking from my experience in all the schools I have worked and subbed in the vast majority of teachers doing these things are female (although as you said there will be some male doing the same).

The last soccer match I had recently, the opposition had a female in charge of a boys team.

Not a big issue really when you look at it from both sides

You could actually argue the opposite the more I think of it. If I were a principal in a mixed school and asked for a teacher with experience in GAA and soccer and had 2 teachers, one male and one female going for it i would be more likely to go with the female teacher as she would be more able to take either the male or female teams moreso than the male teacher

bdoo

seavill wrote: »

2011abc wrote: »

Seems to me that there could be 'gender equity ' issues here ...sure there are die hard female ball game fans but Id imagine a significant majority of those with relevant experience are male .

Surely you could argue the same for a job which has advertised for a teacher with experience in drama, musicals, debate etc. Speaking from my experience in all the schools I have worked and subbed in the vast majority of teachers doing these things are female (although as you said there will be some male doing the same).

The last soccer match I had recently, the opposition had a female in charge of a boys team.

Not a big issue really when you look at it from both sides

You could actually argue the opposite the more I think of it. If I were a principal in a mixed school and asked for a teacher with experience in GAA and soccer and had 2 teachers, one male and one female going for it i would be more likely to go with the female teacher as she would be more able to take either the male or female teams moreso than the male teacher

Some people are obsessed with gender inequality. 35 teachers in my school 6 men 4. of us do gaa and soccer the school also has girls gaa and soccer badminton athlethics camogie basketball rugby you name it - all done by the ladies and well able for it too, without them the school wouldn't have half of the sports and extracurricular.

If you make an effort to get involved and can show that you have in the past there could be no grounds for any notion of discrimination.

rainbowtrout

Surely the argument shouldn't be about gender equality/inequality but that the job advert implies that you haven't a chance of the job unless you can coach football. That is what the word 'essential' implies. And as the OP stated that the job was not for PE then surely people should be able to apply on merit of being qualified to teach English, Geography, Woodwork, Music or whatever the job is for and those kind of extra curricular things can be brought up at the interview.

So I would wonder if you were an excellent English teacher and had a good few years of experience, proven track record etc but no interest in sports and were up against another qualified teacher with little or no experience of teaching but who played football who would/should get the job? Because the contract is to teach English (or whatever the subject is) not coach football.

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Surely the argument shouldn't be about gender equality/inequality but that the job advert implies that you haven't a chance of the job unless you can coach football. That is what the word 'essential' implies. And as the OP stated that the job was not for PE then surely people should be able to apply on merit of being qualified to teach English, Geography, Woodwork, Music or whatever the job is for and those kind of extra curricular things can be brought up at the interview.

So I would wonder if you were an excellent English teacher and had a good few years of experience, proven track record etc but no interest in sports and were up against another qualified teacher with little or no experience of teaching but who played football who would/should get the job? Because the contract is to teach English (or whatever the subject is) not coach football.

In the end of the day every job that is advertised is there to fulfill the needs of the school. Currently the needs of this school are to teach using your example English and they are in need of someone to take teams.
Having a 3rd teacher to take debate for example but still no one to taje the teams does not fulfill the needs of the students currently.

Really if the principal did not specify this but wasted peoples time and money interviewing people who he had no intention of giving it to we would still be giving out. At least he was honest about it.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

In the end of the day every job that is advertised is there to fulfill the needs of the school. Currently the needs of this school are to teach using your example English and they are in need of someone to take teams.
Having a 3rd teacher to take debate for example but still no one to taje the teams does not fulfill the needs of the students currently.

Really if the principal did not specify this but wasted peoples time and money interviewing people who he had no intention of giving it to we would still be giving out. At least he was honest about it.

Perhaps, but football is extra curricular and voluntary work. The contract is for teaching. So if they choose a teacher who is qualified in the subjects and can coach football fair enough, but it shouldn't prevent people having a chance at the job that are actually qualified to do the job.

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Perhaps, but football is extra curricular and voluntary work. The contract is for teaching. So if they choose a teacher who is qualified in the subjects and can coach football fair enough, but it shouldn't prevent people having a chance at the job that are actually qualified to do the job.

You are correct in what you say but if you think this is not what has happened for years you are kidding yourself and I am not talking about jobs for the boys.

Why does every TP student get invOlved in extra curricular work? Why does every cv ever made for teaching have a list of your hobbies and coaching qualifications etc. to make you more employable. This is the way it work in Ireland and prob in every other western country in the world. Every principal wants new staff who will do these extras. At this time maybe he is in huge needed someone to do these teams or he may be at the situation where the kids cannot take part in these activities. This will have a huge impact in school life.

I am a sporty person. Not one bit into drama or anything like that. I have in the past applied for jobs mentioning drama type activities. Was this fair on me no but I still applied. These things have been written on job adds for the past 5 years I have been qualified for all different activities. I found private schools are generally much more specific in asking for things.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

You are correct in what you say but if you think this is not what has happened for years you are kidding yourself and I am not talking about jobs for the boys.

Why does every TP student get invOlved in extra curricular work? Why does every cv ever made for teaching have a list of your hobbies and coaching qualifications etc. to make you more employable. This is the way it work in Ireland and prob in every other western country in the world. Every principal wants new staff who will do these extras. At this time maybe he is in huge needed someone to do these teams or he may be at the situation where the kids cannot take part in these activities. This will have a huge impact in school life.

I am a sporty person. Not one bit into drama or anything like that. I have in the past applied for jobs mentioning drama type activities. Was this fair on me no but I still applied. These things have been written on job adds for the past 5 years I have been qualified for all different activities. I found private schools are generally much more specific in asking for things.

I'm not denying that for a second. I've done plenty of extra curricular stuff over the years. But writing voluntary activities on an advert and labelling them as essential, I think is unfair. All of those things can be determined at the interview or when the principal is going through CVs, which they will have to do anyway.

Teaching is perhaps unique in that respect in that voluntary work is expected as part of the job, where it isn't in other professions, but it shouldn't mean that people that are qualified to do the paid, contracted end of things should be excluded from the outset.

dambarude

rainbowtrout wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

You are correct in what you say but if you think this is not what has happened for years you are kidding yourself and I am not talking about jobs for the boys.

Why does every TP student get invOlved in extra curricular work? Why does every cv ever made for teaching have a list of your hobbies and coaching qualifications etc. to make you more employable. This is the way it work in Ireland and prob in every other western country in the world. Every principal wants new staff who will do these extras. At this time maybe he is in huge needed someone to do these teams or he may be at the situation where the kids cannot take part in these activities. This will have a huge impact in school life.

I am a sporty person. Not one bit into drama or anything like that. I have in the past applied for jobs mentioning drama type activities. Was this fair on me no but I still applied. These things have been written on job adds for the past 5 years I have been qualified for all different activities. I found private schools are generally much more specific in asking for things.

I'm not denying that for a second. I've done plenty of extra curricular stuff over the years. But writing voluntary activities on an advert and labelling them as essential, I think is unfair. All of those things can be determined at the interview or when the principal is going through CVs, which they will have to do anyway.

Teaching is perhaps unique in that respect in that voluntary work is expected as part of the job, where it isn't in other professions, but it shouldn't mean that people that are qualified to do the paid, contracted end of things should be excluded from the outset.

Do you not think it better that the principal makes her intentions clear rather than wasting people's time and money rainbowtrout? They can of course filter the non-sporting applicants out at interview, but I think it's better to be open about it than give people hopes about jobs that are not really there if they dont know there way around a football.

therunaround

You can be an excellent teacher and an excellent coach.
Chances are with 500 people applying for some jobs now that any school can hope to get that calibre of applicant

RealJohn

Fair play to them I say. Unless the job is for the very few subjects in which teachers are in short supply, they'll get no shortage of experienced, qualified applicants. If they know they need someone to take sports too (the importance of which some of you are clearly under-rating) then why wouldn't they save themselves time and money by cutting out people who almost certainly won't get the job anyway?

Many teachers do coaching courses to make them more employable anyway. That's a good thing and if they are suitably qualified and experienced they deserve an advantage for the extra effort they put in.

Fizzical

The problem here is with the word "essential". If the job is not for a PE teacher, then experience in taking teams in GAA / Soccer is not essential to the job requirements. If the school also needs a coach, it should be stated as an 'advantage'.

A voluntary activity should not be stated as essential to a job.

It sounds to me like one of the job descriptions fitted out to suit a particular applicant i.e. the job is already gone.

dambarude

In theory you don't need to be able to coach to teach English or whatever subject it is, but in practice it is clear that to get that job you must be able to do so. Better state it up front and save people some money and time than lead them up the garden path.