Planning permission for room ontop of kitchen

riclad

I,M trying to find out if i built up ,on top on existing rear flat roof
kitchen 14 ftx 12ft ,x10ft height , ie built a bedroom 14x12 ,height 12ft ,Would i need planning permission .this room is at rear of house, would not overlook any neighbours.ie it would not effect anyones privacy.
IT would be built using wood ,with tiles to join onto existing roof .

DOCARCH

If you were to build as you outline, what distance would you have, from the new external walls, to the side boundaries (both sides) and to the rear boundary?

Precise measurements of these distances would be required to determine whether or not the proposed first floor extension could be built with or without planning permission.

In addition, aside from the existing (ground floor) kitchen extension, are there any other extensions to the existing (original) house?

riclad

HOUSE was built pre 63, at rear ,theres ,a kitchen,and room,extension all wood, that were built, say 1950, house built 1920, classic red brick,terrace,bricks ,mortar,front of house
similar to this
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/12-primrose-street-broadstone-dublin-7/1749816
so at rear,40total area, per cent of house ,is wood extension .
the new room would be on top of kitchen, approx,
14ft from rear wall.theres a yard a rear ,14ft x 12ft approx,
with concrete ,walls on 3 sides.the room would be built ontop of kitchen,
so distance is the same,eg 14ft from wall ,extension,kitchen to rear wall.
i think you are implying that to build without planning permission
there must be x feet distance each side ,
from new room to boundary wall on the right, and on the left ,
ie you cant build onto boundary walls ,with permission.
OBviously you could build anything, pre 63,
no planning permission needed ,
for existing room, kitchen.

and on the left.
ill post a drawing later to give more info.

DOCARCH

If you want to build a first floor extension without planning permission, generally the external/side walls of the proposed extension need to be a min. 0f 2.0 metres from the side boundaries and a min. of 11.0 metres from the rear boundary (if you want to have a window) - anything less than that and you need planning permission.

muffler

If the house is terraced or semi D you can only build a max. of 12m2 at first floor level to keep within the exemptions and then thats subject to the criteria as mentioned above by DOCARCH

riclad

ok,, say theres no windows ,do i still need planning permission,
As posted before , new build would be about 14ft from rear boundary wall, The right side would be at least 12ft from wall on the right.

muffler

The exemptions and conditions for same are all contained here

riclad

YOU mean the room could be max height, say 11.99 metres high,
measuring up from the floor,
on the 1st floor.
This is light wood construction, apart from roof tiles, which would be same colour as existing tiles, on rear roof.
I,D be happy to build, it with no windows.

DOCARCH

Even though you are only considering a first floor extension, your yard (private open space) could scupper you - you need 25.0 m.sq. private open space - from your measurements it does not sound like you have that space.

Bear in mind all these criteria are to do with exempted development - if you do not comply with the criteria set out - that does not mean you can not or will not get planning permission for what you want to do.

DOCARCH

riclad wrote: »

I,D be happy to build, it with no windows.

Pretty much the only thing you could use it for then would be a bathroom or extension to an existing bedroom? You need windows to bedrooms to comply with Building Regulations.

riclad

What is Exempt Development?
It is possible to extend your home by up to 40sqm to the rear without the permission of the planning authority. quote from extend.ie.
SO in a pre 63 home, where there was 2 extensions,built,
before 1963.
DOES that mean say the 2 old extensions,
take up 20sq metres, i can build in theory another 20sq metres,at the rear.?
i understand the rules re distance to rear, side, boundary walls still apply.
I dont understand ,how building a 1st floor extension,effects the yard,private space,
it doesnt overlook anyone ,or effect any neighbours privacy,in this case.
Is it legal,re building regs, to build a bathroom with no window
?

DOCARCH

riclad wrote: »

It is possible to extend your home by up to 40sqm to the rear without the permission of the planning authority.

Yes, but subject to certain criteria - area is not everything - read the link Muffler posted above, then come back.

rayjdav

Any extensions pre '63 are not taken into consideration for current rules, as they existed prior to the planning regulations coming into effect.
So if you have extensions pre 63, you can still build 40sqm to the rear, but you must take heed of the conditions attached as per Mufflers link above. If you cant acheive these dimensions or conditions, and you still want to build, then you must apply formally to your LA for Planning Permission.
As DocArch said, just because you dont have the noted dimensions or space, this is not to say that the LA will not grant planning.
Exempt Development basically is something you can build without applying for permission, but you MUST STILL COMPLY with Building Regulations.

riclad

I,m reading thru the link posted ,re exempt extensions .
i would intend to comply with building and fire regulations and would get the plans checked by an architect or professional who would be qualified in those areas.
at some point i,ll post a rough plan here,after i read info re exempt extensions.
I,m trying to work out ,is it viable to build a simple 1room extension ,it could be used to enlarge an existing bedroom, or just a tv room.

rayjdav

ANYTHING, pre 63 is omitted from your new area calc's. But if the extensions were done since, regardless of the status of the house, then their area's must be deducted from the 40sqm exemption limit, at ground floor level.

riclad

THIS would be a simple rectangular room ,
the most complicated thing about it would be building the roof,frame to
meet and join up with the existing roof at the top , and at the right hand side.
I,D leave a gap on the left to conform with rules re distance from boundary wall.
I have to put in new insulation in the loft, and paint the all rear walls,
walls 30ft plus high, so im pretty busy at the moment.
I want to get insulation material,that will last for 20 years,is evironmentally friendly,
and easy to install,
loft space is 4ft height on average.
there,s very little insulation in the loft at the moment.

martinn123

rayjdav wrote: »

ANYTHING, pre 63 is omitted from your new area calc's. But if the extensions were done since, regardless of the status of the house, then their area's must be deducted from the 40sqm exemption limit, at ground floor level.

Hope you don't mind me butting in with a question?

How do you show/prove its pre 63.
If the house is in the same ownership, I guess that might be simple, but it's nearly 50yrs, so I guess the original owners might not be around.

riclad

I,m not a lawyer , I presume you look at deeds, house was bought in 1942, by joe bloggs, i presume that means it was built before 1963.I WAS told house was over 70 years old by estate agent.
ALL the previous owners, date of transactions ,purchase dates,boundary info, are also in the land registry office.
I THINK they are in the process of transferring all property ,house
data,records from paper to digital format,
i presume to make conveyancing , legal transfers more effecient .

if you are thinking of buying a house your lawyer can acess documents to verify its a pre 63 house.
ORIGINAL OWNERS are deceased.The owner passed away, then it was put up for sale.

martinn123

Sorry its the way I put the question.
I was referring to any extentions to the house pre 63. Not the house itself.
The advice posted by,raydjav, was that you could exclude pre 63 extentions from the 40SqM exemption, so that's my question.

riclad

The house is about 730 sq ft, old extension less than one third,
less than 20m sq, so that leaves 20m sq ,for the new extension.
i think the estate agent said i could go to architect and get cert to show old extension is pre 63.
i have,nt got round to measuring it .

riclad

According to the link above,the extension i could build would be max 12sq metres, any window must be at least 11metres from boundary wall , not above the gable .I presume they mean not above the highest part of the roof level,or above the gable,if gable is triangle ,with widest part
below, I cant build above top of the triangle/ gable top.
so i can put in 1. quote; (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.

(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square .

Since its on top of kitchen, its not reducing the yard space at all.

riclad

Does that mean the floor area is max 12m, in theory i could build a new roof 5m x 6m on top of the extension ,as long as its lower than gable top, and lower than existing roof .

muffler

riclad wrote: »

Does that mean the floor area is max 12m, in theory i could build a new roof 5m x 6m on top of the extension ,as long as its lower than gable top, and lower than existing roof .

1. Why would you want to put a 30 sq.m roof over a 12 sq.m extension at first floor level?
2. You have stated that the ex. extension is 15.6 sq.m (14' x 12') so how do you propose to build 12 sq.m on top of that?
3. Are you looking for a way to circumvent the planning process?

I have an idea where this is going and accordingly I would advise you to read the forum charter particularly Section 6.1

riclad

THE building rear has 2 gables .say 40 ft high approx,in between ground level is the kitchen ,above and behind the kitchen rear roof inclines down,kitchen is 12ft wide, depth, back to front, is 8ft approx.

SO in theory it might be possible to build extension 12ft , by 8ft ,
with a roof of size 12ft x 12ft ,
ie by building back towards the roof,
since theres a large gap above the kitchen.
that 9sq metres which is under the limit of 12sq metres.
THE gable at the right, is about 6ft ,lower ,than the top of the front roof.
I regard to roof extension no higher than gable,
does that mean i cannot build higher than the rear gable.
ie this house has 2 roof segments,
main house roof, and roof for rear section, which contains, 1st floor bedroom.ground level lounge/spare room.
Measurements i did today indicate theres max 9sq metres of space to build above kitchen
at some point i,ll post a pic of proposed extension
NO way i COULD put in windows as back garden is maybe 22 ft wide approx.
IF you look from above ,house is an letter L shape,with bedroom, gable on the right.
so extension would be on left,of top bedroom.
i read section 6.1,re no quotes, allowed in replys to a post.

BryanF

Are you allergic to seeking professional advice on site?

riclad

My friend spend 1000 euros, applying for planning permission ,got plans drawn up by architect .Entension was refused,
if he had shown me the plans before,applying, iwould have told him this will be refused.
COUNCIL told him, theres not enough parking space.
He wanted to build another 2 bedrooms,onto a 3bed semi d.
i may seek professional,advice, i,m not intending to build anything for at least 6months.
I may not build anything at all.
I have no desire to circumvent the planning process in any way .

riclad

IF i build it ,ill build new roof across to join smaller side roof on the right ,so extension will look like a rectangle ,with a triangular section on the right as it meets up with the roof.
I Presume this will not break the rule re 12m max floor area,
as the triangle lower side would be the right side wall of the room,
if viewed from the inside.
ie the side wall will be 45 degree incline approx .
IT would be nice to have a window on top,roof, of the extension ,but i think that would need planning permission ,re 11metre distance to boundary.
The side roof ,at the rear ,is approx 6ft lower than large front roof,
so i,m not sure re how high i can build,
is it simply ,do not building higher than the main front roof.

Or do i have to take the lower side roof , gable into account , when
planning the build?

DOCARCH

As I said earlier, in my opinion, your yard size is too small to allow you carry out an exempt development - even though you are not proposing to reduce the yard size anymore, as it is less than 25 m.sq., this would preclude you from building without planning permission....

and....

if the room you build is in excess of 6.5 m.sq. (and has a ceiling height of 8ft) it will be habitable and a habitable room needs a window - calling it a TV room does make it non-habitable and even if the window or obscure, it needs to be 11 metres from the boundary it faces.

Do yourself a favour - get some professional advice.

riclad

I thought the rule was you cant build without planning permit, if you reduce the garden by x amount ,i,m not reducing the yard at all as i,m planning to build up ,less than 12 metres sq floor space.
ARE you saying yard is less than 25metres,square
therefore exempt extension is not possible in this case.
the yard is about 24ft wide, x 14ft.
As i posted before i may not build anything at all.

DOCARCH

riclad wrote: »

the yard is about 24ft wide, x 14ft

O.k. - I will row back on that one - on those measurements that's about 31 m.sq., so you appear be o.k. on that aspect and appear to have enough open space and as you say you will not be reducing it. It would be important to have yard measured/survey to ensure there is enough private open space.

riclad

i,ll have to measure it ,precisely , it could be 21 ft, wide,
i,m very busy at the moment, painting,putting in insulation in the roof,attic etc.
if its less than 24m .ill just forget about building anything.

muffler

riclad you are making up hypothetical situations as you go along. Quite frankly I haven't a clue what you are talking about and as one question is put to you you are responding with a question a lot of the times instead of an answer.

You volunteered to post up a drawing and then pics but this hasn't happened so no one is sure of what you are proposing. To cap it all you then say you mightn't build anything at all.

People have tried to advise you here but you wont or cant accept it. The main advise offered was to engage a professional but you refuse to do so.

Just like yourself the rest of us are busy and we have exhausted all avenues to answer your queries on the never ending changing of dimensions and situations you have posted. Accordingly we can do nothing more for you.

Thread locked.